rigorousintuition.ca

It was pointed out to me the other day that a lot of the issues which Hinduism receives criticism for in Western media (religious nationalism, "superstition", gender stuff) NEVER provoke the same opprobrium when Muslim or certain other cultures are concerned.

Meanwhile there is a worldwide Hindu diaspora that seems to largely be very peaceful, successful, and open to dialogue with other civilizations - while again and again I've been told that many of the worst problems in India, while they may involve corrupt indigenous elites, have substantial anchoring in "international development loans" that are in truth pyramid schemes designed to hinder, not help, the areas they are supposedly giving aid to.

Why is Hinduism treated as a pariah when other religions/cultures are untouchable?

tapitsbo » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:17 pm wrote:
Why is Hinduism treated as a pariah when other religions/cultures are untouchable?

What? Your premise is sci-fi.

Point taken. "Untouchable" is the wrong word choice.

Definitely there's a double standard though, reading recent articles about India I can't imagine the same being said about Muslim countries.

"Religious nationalism" was seen as a positive by Western media in Egypt, with Syrian rebels, etc.

In particular, feminism seems more than happy to attack Hinduism but tiptoes around Islam.

These things are at least notable, I think.

I say this as someone who is uneasy with the broad vilification of all Muslims by Fox-style media. (Although most centrist Western media is apologist concerning Islam when compared to practically any other religion, certainly when compared to its treatment of Christianity).

I didn't make this thread to defend Hindu extremists such as they exist but rather because the double standards on display are tough for me to decode.

Those TIME covers denounce movements (mormon, jihadi, buddhist "terror" as opposed to buddhism as a whole) that can be understood as extremist by a reasonable rubric. Not that their sensationalism is anything great. But saying "Islam as a whole has problems" is a right-wing/socially unacceptable stance. Saying Christianity or Hinduism as a whole is problematic is a mainstream stance.

Probably there's a dull geopolitical explanation but maybe there are other interesting takes.

tapitsbo » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:49 pm wrote:Probably there's a dull geopolitical explanation but maybe there are other interesting takes.

A lot of Islamophobes are simpletons.
They don't bother to distinguish the differences between people of color.

Witness the Sikhs who get mistaken for Muslims.

People don't think much about Indians until you start talking about freeing Leonard Peltier.

Tapitsbo, could you provide any example of what you say is happening? The only thing I've seen that might apply is fully justified concern about Narendra Modi and the BJP.

That's true IanEye; I started the thread, though, in mind of the establishment perspective that sees India, rightly or wrongly, as an area in need of feminist saviours but the Islamic world as an area "different" enough to deserve the protections of a certain relativism that puts it largely beyond such reproaches...

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... nstruation

The comments to this article helpfully pointed out that mosques institute similar restrictions on women during menstruation but activists are afraid to criticize them.

This is just one example though, I've seen lots of others...

Yes criticizing Modi and the BJP may very well be justified, but religious nationalism is supposed to be something wonderful and democratic when the Muslim Brotherhood does it, at least according to the MSM.

It's the messaging that I'm trying to understand here, not the ultimate truth or justice of religious or political ideals, or of how one civilization should judge another (certainly the West has judged more than is perhaps its share).

It's interesting how different groups (Mormons are an interesting example!) have different relations with the spectrum of institutional cultural critique... who decides what is a "cult" and what is a "religion" is just one of many fascinating parameters, here

Islam is treated with kid gloves (by "liberals") ONLY BECAUSE the knuckle-dragging retards in America vilify them (all, without thought or sane reason). It's a reaction to the republican stupidity. IF they were not doing that, then there would be plenty of push against islamic sexist bullshit.

and what's mahr, there's plenty of people waking up from that reaction-against-reaction and getting plenty sick and tired of the "honor" killings and so on. Islam as it is practiced by many, PARTICULARLY as it has been promulgated by Saudi scum, must be severely reformed. There's no doubt about that. but how? no answers.

A couple of progressive/Marxist-oriented friends rail viciously against Hinduism, mainly for its caste system. Nothing can budge their wholesale condemnation.

Elvis » 04 Dec 2015 10:28 wrote:A couple of progressive/Marxist-oriented friends rail viciously against Hinduism, mainly for its caste system. Nothing can budge their wholesale condemnation.

I could be wrong, but I thought the caste system was primarily a cultural artifact and not entirely born from the religion, though it intertwines now. Also, IIRC, it is showing signs of reform and improvement.

Definitely there's a double standard though, reading recent articles about India I can't imagine the same being said about Muslim countries.

Yes, the volume of recent articles making India synonymous with terrorism cannot compare with the measly reference to terrorism in Muslim countries. Ever since 9/11 and the War on Terror poor India has been so unfairly maligned.

Personally I don't really feel it's the West's job to "reform" other societies; I think that's an outdated mindset.

I'm interested in tone and messaging in mainstream framing of other cultures, here, and what divergences in the messaging mean...

I'm also talking official, mainstream media here: of course you can find a just about any viewpoint in a galaxy of opinions.

justdrew » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:24 pm wrote:Islam is treated with kid gloves (by "liberals") ONLY BECAUSE the knuckle-dragging retards in America vilify them (all, without thought or sane reason). It's a reaction to the republican stupidity. IF they were not doing that, then there would be plenty of push against islamic sexist bullshit.

and what's mahr, there's plenty of people waking up from that reaction-against-reaction and getting plenty sick and tired of the "honor" killings and so on. Islam as it is practiced by many, PARTICULARLY as it has been promulgated by Saudi scum, must be severely reformed. There's no doubt about that. but how? no answers.

This is a very good point. Being critical of Islam right now automatically puts you in the right wing camp in many people's eyes. It's political correctness gone mad.

I don't think there's any easy answer to fundamentalism, but education is a start. Give kids a good education and teach them critical thinking and they will see through the bullshit themselves.
It will probably take a couple of generations though.

The whole "honor" thing also needs to be eradicated. When people would rather murder their own daughter than see the family lose "honor" something is seriously wrong. Misogyny is alive and well in large parts of the world, and again, I think education is a key ingredient in fixing it.

DrEvil » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:50 pm wrote:
This is a very good point. Being critical of Islam right now automatically puts you in the right wing camp in many people's eyes. It's political correctness gone mad.

It would be worth someone, somewhere, creating a map of this, how there are a growing number of subjects about which, any opinion, or even statement of fact about them, will instantly get you thrown into a particular ideological camp where you can be dismissed, ignored, vilified, or punished (in a word invalidated).

How the creation of specific "PC" memes causes a sort of gravitational pull that redirects every conversation into an ideological war zone.

(I think we also need a new term for the relatively innocuous "politically correct.")

tapitsbo » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 pm wrote:Personally I don't really feel it's the West's job to "reform" other societies; I think that's an outdated mindset.

I disagree. I don't think we should tolerate the outright barbaric shit happening in places like Saudi Arabia and India (no, I'm not advocating invading India).

justdrew » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:31 am wrote:

Elvis » 04 Dec 2015 10:28 wrote:A couple of progressive/Marxist-oriented friends rail viciously against Hinduism, mainly for its caste system. Nothing can budge their wholesale condemnation.

I could be wrong, but I thought the caste system was primarily a cultural artifact and not entirely born from the religion, though it intertwines now. Also, IIRC, it is showing signs of reform and improvement.

Yes, I tried telling the friends all that, to no effect.

For one thing, Hinduism is vast in its variety. I don't know if anyone really comprehends the whole of it. I see a lot of beauty and mystery in Hinduism.

The Hindu nationalist current strikes me as oddly un-Hindu. My impression of Hinduism in history (I've studied India over the years, both academically and informally, but have never visited) has been of a remarkable tolerance for other religions and a readiness to fold in aspects of other faiths (further contributing to its great variety), and yet remain 'distinctly' Hindu.

And the art! The art!