Prostitution - whose choice is it?

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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby identity » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:25 am

parel » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:11 am wrote:I started this to actually put forth something about myself (before later thinking, it is not safe here -- too many abolitionists who will happily jump into bed with law enforcement and who think it's entirely acceptable to sic the cops onto other women in the name of feminism) but also to hear real perspectives from other people.

Since i deleted my own posts anyway, I'm happy to start another thread and repost what I wrote and leave this thread to the anti-trafficking crowd. This can be home to the likes of Chris Hedges and his pity porn patrol.

This can be an anti-trafficking thread.

Clean slate.


What makes you think they won't simply follow you into the other thread? Mosquitoes tend to pursue their sources of blood when they haul their body over to a different chair...

I, for one, would be happy, however, to see your own (and any others') biographical material reposted on RI. :hug1:
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

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in a published letter to Nature
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Nordic » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:41 am

Heaven Swan » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:04 am wrote:From the amazing blog of Jonah Mix, a leftist male who truly and masterfully supports women in our fight against the global pandemic of male violence against us and our quest to gain status as full human beings.

http://jonahmix.com/2015/05/16/abolition-or-legalization-which-approach-to-prostitution-is-truly-utopian/

Abolition or Legalization – Which Approach to Prostitution is Truly Utopian?

Image


Supporters of the sex industry are quick to slander prostitution abolition, calling it prudish, conservative, racist, oppressive, man-hating, anti-sex, and utopian – among other loaded and inaccurate terms. There are quite a few great resources out there for why these claims are baseless misogyny, but I wanted to take a moment to focus on that last accusation. I recently had a long and exhausting Twitter conversation with a sex buying man who repeatedly fell back on the claim that prostitution was inevitable and that all efforts to abolish it were doomed. Instead, he argued, it should be legalized and regulated. Considering that this is a common argument, I thought I’d try and do a brief analysis of why it fails and, more importantly, why the logic of inevitability is fundamentally flawed.

First, it’s worth noting that many of the men who argue that prostitution cannot be abolished are also quick to portray the industry as safe, profitable, fun, and even empowering – which makes me wonder why would they need the inevitability defense in the first place. If you truly believe that something is a social good, it seems unnecessary to justify it further by saying it could not possibly be done away with. We don’t feel the need to highlight the “inevitability” of things we all agree are ethically sound; no one ends a talk about the social and personal benefits of giving to charity by saying, “And c’mon, people have been giving to charity for thousands of years, there’s no way to stop it.”

On the reverse, it makes even less sense to play up the positive aspects of a system that you truly believe literally cannot not exist. If reference to the inevitability of righteous systems seems unnecessary, reference to the righteousness of inevitable systems is downright incoherent. If prostitution is just going to happen – if it’s a force of nature driven by innate biological factors encoded into our very essence – then why does it even matter whether or not it’s a positive experience for women? If men paying to fuck female strangers is a universal pre-existing feature of human existence, then any statement about its moral value seems about as meaningful as an ethical examination of hurricanes or malaria.

When a man says that prostitution is both empowering and inevitable, he is essentially saying, “You enjoy fucking me for money, but even if you didn’t, I wouldn’t stop.” It’s a clever move, really – it allows him to hide behind a convenient veneer of consent without actually pinning his access to female bodies on anything other than institutional male power. In that way, the coupling of “Prostitution is a safe and rewarding career” and “Prostitution will never, ever go away” carries a tone similar to the classic abuser’s refrain: Our relationship is great, nothing is wrong, and if you try to leave, I’ll kill you.

This pattern has played out many times in history. Child labor, slavery, and the fourteen-hour work day were all at one time portrayed by the powerful as good for society; the moment resistance on the part of the oppressed revealed that bourgeois mythology for what it was, the justification similarly shifted to inevitability. And in each case, that justification failed as well. We now know that neither the ownership of human beings nor the exploitation of children is necessary for a flourishing society, and soon we will realize the same about the sale of women’s bodies.

Adopting the Nordic model in Norway has reduced street prostitution by up to 60% and even reduced indoor prostitution by at least a tenth. Sweden shows similar results. While human trafficking rises in countries like Germany and New Zealand that have legalized pimping, it is dropping in Nordic Model countries. Men in Sweden show measurably higher levels of disapproval towards purchasing sex and are, by many accounts, the least likely population on the planet to do so. Even South Korea, which has only adopted an incomplete (and problematic) version of the Nordic Model, has seen its massive sex industry almost halved. When these statistics are combined with historical examples of prostitution abolition in Cuba and Maoist China – not to mention thousands of precolonial prostitution-free indigenous cultures – the practice of men purchasing women looks less and less inevitable every day.

Prostitution abolition is not utopian. What is utopian is the false hope that a sex industry can exist without rampant, institutionalized abuse. The roots of male violence against prostituted women and the roots of prostitution itself spring from the same poisoned soil of objectification, callousness, and the dead-eyed eroticism of masculinity. That is the true irony here; for all their claims that radical feminists are unrealistic in their goals, those who advocate for legalization and regulation have as their goal a significantly less likely world in which men view the bodies of female strangers as products to be purchased and fucked, yet never, ever do them harm. Prostitution can and will one day be abolished, but world where male entitlement is enshrined into law yet somehow does not find its final expression in dead, raped, and battered women? Now that’s a utopia.


I don't think this "amazing" at all, in fact, I find it to be a terrible piece of writing, filled with straw men too numerous to count, unfounded assumptions, and a hysterical man-hating tone ("dead-eyed eroticism of masculinity?" That's a man ashamed of being a man and/or terrified of his own sexuality).
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Cordelia » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:01 pm

"And you're located in Thailand no less, one of the main hubs of sex trafficking and sex tourism." :wallhead:

As stated ad nauseum, until sex is no longer a natural human function meeting many individual and unique needs, there always has been and always will be a market. Adult, consensual commercial sex should be legalized with no punishable party--sex worker or customer; human trafficking for any purpose is entirely different and, I agree, shouldn't conflate with prostitution. I find the continual references to sex trafficking in this thread distracting and counter productive.

I fail to understand why adult, consensual sex without harm is judged and condemned in societies where so many soul-selling, mind -numbing, and morally reprehensible jobs are accepted and even respected.

Using Nevada's legalized and licensed brothels as their model, this is a 2013 article in a business magazine (it also addresses crime):

"Business Insider's Dylan Love had his expectations shattered when he reported on a Nevada brothel and observed that legalized, well-regulated prostitution can be both safe and profitable."


http://www.businessinsider.com/why-amer ... on-2013-11

If not already included, here is a link to Amnesty International's policy document on prostitution.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/202126121/Amn ... y-document
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Project Willow » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:28 pm

Nordic » 22 Jan 2016 18:09 wrote:
Willow, I've been very curious as to anything you say regarding this subject as my respect and affection for you is immense. I truly hope nothing I've said has offended you.


Not at all, and right back at you! I am just stating my opinions as freely as anyone else in the thread.

I do have a reply to your earlier answer to my question on whether you would do sex work. Although I have heard from men over the years about the urgent and sometimes oppressive-feeling demands of their libidos, I would counter that we women have extremely strong sex drives as well, it's just that culturally, we have far less permission to express or acknowledge it. I would also suggest that aversions you might have to prostitution women share as well. We aren't that different. Generally, there is no innate ability that allows women to better tolerate prostitution, anymore than there is some innate ability that allows men to better tolerate the conditions of war. We're both human on those counts.

Nordic » 22 Jan 2016 18:09 wrote:My take on this subject is based on the idea of people treating one other with empathy and respect. Which is probably a fantasy here. At least in all cases. I know that a good many men are actually sweethearts but too many of them aren't, and some of them are monsters.


Same can be said of women. There are a variety of factors influencing this debate, I'm just trying to pry a few of them apart.
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Project Willow » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:43 pm

jakell » 23 Jan 2016 03:06 wrote:I'm pleased that someone other than me has noticed that particular meme creation and insertion, subtexts like this tend to get initially overlooked and then, someone starts to run with it.

You do seem to have inadvertently given it a very catchy name though.


Yes, better to distort and demean the offending question than to deal with it directly. /s
If you’re confused by what, exactly, comprises a prostitute’s workaday world, please read these stories, from a pro sex-work publication no less:

http://tampep.eu/documents/Pictures_of_a_reality-Indoors_2.pdf
Sex workers talk about their life and work experiences within the indoor sex work setting in nine European cities
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby jakell » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:32 pm

Project Willow » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:43 pm wrote:
jakell » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:06 am wrote:
parel » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:11 am wrote:I want to add a bit about I cannot tolerate anti-trafficking rhetoric. Apart from the disempowering language they employ to try to conflate sex work with rape and trafficking, it is gratuitous shock-pornography, like the "thousand dicks a day" meme that circulated in this thread for a while. I question the validity of some of these narratives, certianly in the cases of Mott and Moran, and do not want to be subjected to fabricated stories that are so intricate in their descriptions of violent sex, that it becomes an unacceptable distraction from the issue we are discussing. Mott and Moran's material regularly bomb discussions like this with abolitionists gleefully planting them as if to say "gotcha". Now, I'm not afraid to take either of them. In fact, I would like to interrogate both those women separately about their stories because both of them are definitely leaving something out. But I won't cower to their well-paid narratives and I'm not afraid to criticise them.


I'm pleased that someone other than me has noticed that particular meme creation and insertion, subtexts like this tend to get initially overlooked and then, someone starts to run with it.

You do seem to have inadvertently given it a very catchy name though.


Yes, better to distort and demean the offending question than to deal with it directly. /s

.....



What question? There was no question being discussed here.
" Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism"
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Project Willow » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:44 pm

Cordelia » 24 Jan 2016 12:01 wrote:
I fail to understand why adult, consensual sex without harm is judged and condemned in societies where so many soul-selling, mind -numbing, and morally reprehensible jobs are accepted and even respected.


Because genitals are not like other body parts, and mating behavior is fundamentally different than any other.

The concept that sex work is work like any other is fallacious. The process of mate selection is central to species survival, and the sexes continuously battle over who exercises greater control. This is reflected in morphology and behavior across all sexually dimorphic species.

Image
http://www.livescience.com/4426-ducks-wage-genital-warfare.html
Evolutionary morphological battle of the sexes over control of mate selection process in Mallard ducks.

The impulse to control access to our sex organs is instinctual and hard wired. If this were not the case, there would be no such thing as rape, there would be no lasting damage from child sexual abuse, no exceptional trauma responses at all from these experiences, beyond perhaps physical assault.

The vast majority of people who choose sex work, are not choosing to make money off multiple chosen sex partners, they are choosing to make money by giving up their choice of sex partners. They are choosing to give up control over mate selection. The choice (or the agency, to use the current buzz word) happens on a meta level, and so cannot act as some sort of blanket inoculant against the body’s protective impulses. The instinctual sense of being violated can be suppressed or dissociated through some mental gymnastics, perhaps even mediated to a degree, but can not be fully cancelled out in this process.

This is reflected in the research on survivors of prostitution who show rates of PTSD at the same levels as war veterans. Unfortunately, there is not enough of this research being done. Below is a quote from a trauma specialist on the issue:

Michaela Huber, the director of the German Trauma and Dissociation Society, says: “To allow strangers to penetrate one’s body, it is necessary to extinguish some natural phenomena: fear, shame, disgust, strangeness, contempt and self-blame. In their place these women put indifference, neutrality, a functional conception of penetration, a reinterpretation of this act as a “job” or “service”. http://www.michaela-huber.com/files/vortraege2014/trauma-und-prostitution-aus-traumatherapeutischer-sicht.pdf.%2002.01.2015 In fact, these women dissociate.


Granted, my theory about mate selection is just a sketch and should be submitted to all kinds of questions and testing, but at the moment, it feels right to me.
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby parel » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:30 am

Thanks Cordelia. At least one woman on this site is listening to someone identifying as "we" and not "they". At least not all the women here are bed sniffers trying to get the State to monitor our sexual activities.

So onto trafficking.

Here, a woman has been cut out the redress system for Magdalene Laundries because she was a juvenile at the time. These are just some of the traffickers that become obscured through fabricated narratives and junk science.

The Catholic Church has been getting away with it for years.

Woman challenges Magdalene redress refusal

Wednesday, January 27, 2016Ann O’Loughlin
A woman who claims she was forced to work unpaid in a Magdalene laundry for 10 years has challenged the minister for justice’s decision excluding her from the State’s redress scheme for victims of those institutions.


The woman claims she was used as forced and unpaid labour from the age of eight to 18 at two laundries, in Waterford and Dublin, during the 1970s and early 1980s.

She had applied to be included in the redress scheme established in 2013 to compensate survivors of the Magdalene laundries but her application was turned down on the grounds that, at the relevant time, she was a resident of industrial schools and not the laundries themselves.

Michael Lynn, counsel for the woman, said the minister had, in her refusal, told the woman she should have sought compensation under the Residential Institutions Redress Scheme. However, his client, because she lives abroad, did not hear about that scheme in time, and her application for inclusion in it was refused as being out of time.
READ NEXT HSE expert warns that proposed drug-testing kits ‘don’t work’

In her proceedings against the minister for justice, the woman wants an order quashing the minister’s refusal to admit her to the laundries’ redress scheme.

In a sworn statement, the woman said she had worked at St Mary’s Laundry, Cork Rd, Waterford, and St Mary’s Refuge Magdalen Laundry, Grace Park Rd, Drumcondra, Dublin.

She said she was just two when she was taken from her family and does not know why she was taken away.

She was placed at St Dominic’s Industrial School for girls in Waterford, run by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd, and, from the age of eight, was forced to work at the nearby St Mary’s Laundry in Waterford, she said.

She worked there after school on Saturdays or on days when she refused to go to school, but was given a Saturday off to make her First Holy Communion.

She said that she was transferred to Dublin as a teenager and placed at An Grianán Institution in Drumcondra. She claims she also was compelled to work at St Mary’s Refuge Magdalene Laundry, which was in the same building as An Grianán, after school and on Saturdays. She also claims she was subject to sexual and physical abuse in An Grianán.

Mr Lynn argued the refusal to admit his client to the redress scheme “flies in the face of reason and common sense”.

He claimed the minister erred in law by adopting an interpretation of the scheme at variance with the plain and ordinary meaning of the words within it and the refusal violated his client’s right to justice, breached fair procedures, and was irrational and unreasonable. What happened to his client when she was in the institutions was “horrendous”.

The minister failed to take into account children placed at St Dominick’s Industrial School and An Grianán worked in the laundries, or a report by the HSE which stated An Grianán and St Mary’s in Drumcondra were not separate institutions but “one and the same”, he said.

Permission to bring the proceedings was granted, on an ex-parte basis by Ms Justice Deidre Murphy.

The case comes back before the court in March.



Another thing that I noticed last weekend, in the lead up to Invasion Day Australia (aka Australia Day) were the words of this child in this version of "I still call Australia Home" by Fear of a Brown Planet. The video was adapted from a famous advertisement by the Australian Tourism Corporation. I post this vid every Ashtraylia Day for the edification of my white family and friends who really don't understand why colonisation is still a problem.

"please take us to some country. It doesn't have to be Australia. We don't mind if any other country TRADES us. We can't stay in Sri Lanka."
Sri Lankan child. 2009.

She understands at her age exactly what trafficking is.

Australia hold refugees on Nauru & Christmas Island, two island protectorates in the Pacific as well as Manus Island as part of an agreement with PNG government. These people didn't even make it there. They were sent back to Indonesia to face an unknown fate.

Last edited by parel on Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby parel » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:40 am

identity » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:25 am wrote:
parel » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:11 am wrote:I started this to actually put forth something about myself (before later thinking, it is not safe here -- too many abolitionists who will happily jump into bed with law enforcement and who think it's entirely acceptable to sic the cops onto other women in the name of feminism) but also to hear real perspectives from other people.

Since i deleted my own posts anyway, I'm happy to start another thread and repost what I wrote and leave this thread to the anti-trafficking crowd. This can be home to the likes of Chris Hedges and his pity porn patrol.

This can be an anti-trafficking thread.

Clean slate.


What makes you think they won't simply follow you into the other thread? Mosquitoes tend to pursue their sources of blood when they haul their body over to a different chair...

I, for one, would be happy, however, to see your own (and any others') biographical material reposted on RI. :hug1:


It doesn't matter if they follow me there. Other people can respond to them. I don't care. They can whip up their 'thousand dicks' hysteria here. The important point is that their actions make it dangerous for sex workers to disclose or write anything remotely biographical. There is almost an insinuation that I am a trafficker in this thread. Oh yeah, being in Bangkok "who funds you"? That's someone trying to get the dirt. I know. I've been called a pimp and a trafficker by that type for years.

This thread is wrecked anyway.
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby parel » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:17 am

On the subject of sex trafficking, it is probably important to point out that, like sex workers, anti-trafficking organisations are not an homogenous group.

Anthropologist Laura Agustin coined the term ‘Rescue Industry’ to describe the anti-trafficking industry which often ascribes victim status to women who have made conscious and rational decisions to migrate knowing they will be selling sex and who do not consider themselves to be victims. She states that such views on prostitution originate in what she calls ‘fundamentalist feminism’. Her articles and book are an edifying and compelling read. I got serious book jealousy reading Sex at the Margins because of her ability to take complex ideas and convey them in a very simple way.
http://www.lauraagustin.com/

Among the worst of the fundamentals feminist organisations are the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW), Equality Now, Ruhama, Polaris (xtian), Not for Sale (stealth xtian), Love 146 (xtian), CNN Freedom Project Somaly Mam Foundation (outed for fabricating story) & Apne Aap just to name a few. Their transgressions range from promoting stigma and discrimination against sex workers as well as trafficking victims/survivors to denying trafficking survivors a voice of their own (reciting their stories to the media) to imprisoning them in their “rehab facilities” sometimes without proper care, not enough rice and even denying them HIV medication (murder). As well as this, they call on the state to intervene in cases involving both sex workers and trafficked persons to take away their children, kick them out of their homes, deny entitlements to social security benefits (in countries where that applies) and to deport them or criminalise them for matters unrelated to prostitution.

In 2011, Nicholas Kristoff live-tweeted an brothel raid in Cambodia where he was present with police and Somaly Mam, for the entertainment of NYT readers. Sex workers labelled "trafficking victims" were filmed and identified coming out of the brothel in skimpy work clothes during the raids and arrests. This is apparently a appropriate way in which to treat “trafficking victims” according to Kristoff and his predatory ilk. None of the sex workers were underage, although he claimed they were and it is not hard to convince readers that this is true, since Cambodian people are very small and look very young, in part due to generations of malnourishment.

In fact, a large part of the “sex trafficking in SE Asia” narrative relies on this "look" to solicit donations. International Justice Misson (IJM) started their Asian campaign in India but later moved their main operation to Cambodia because they were able to raise more money in SE Asia, not only due to the youthful appearance of their targets, but presumably because people from SE Asia are more pleasing to the Western eye. They are not as dark as Indians.
http://www.lauraagustin.com/the-conceit ... aintliness
http://www.thewire.com/global/2011/11/n ... ves/44615/

Additionally, there are hundreds of Christian anti-trafficking organisations, some funded by USAID as well as tithes from adherents, that operate throughout Asia & Africa. It might even be thousands. I don’t know whether their operations have ever been mapped, but they are plentiful ranging from large with hundreds of employees, to small operations with perhaps a husband and wife. They are generally out to convert sex workers to Christianity whilst “training” them to make jewellery or craftwork or work in coffee shops in low level positions or "read english" using only the bible. I have never seen any of these business operations where sex workers are placed in management positions or run these concerns autonomously. The managers and "trainers" are always white westerners, usually male. Reports to our member organisations of sexual assault and rapes have increased markedly in these countries, with the growth of the rescue industry. It is like there is a pool of available young women for predators to access without regulation or oversight.

Among the few ethical anti-trafficking agencies, the best would be the Global Alliance in Trafficking of Women, a network of about 120 organisations world-wide. GAATW is committed to working for changes in the political, economic, social and legal systems and structures which contribute to the persistence of trafficking in persons and other human rights violations in the context of migratory movements for diverse purposes, including security of labour and livelihood. They are critical of capitalism and are committed to dismantling oppressive structures that are the drivers for trafficking and abusive work conditions.

The critical difference between GAATW and the others is that they apply a human rights-based approach to addressing trafficking issues which means:

1. Non-discrimination on any grounds, including – singly or in combination - race, ethnicity, descent, sexual orientation or gender identity, religion, gender, age, migrant status, national or social origin, birth or other status, or occupation (including work in the informal sectors such as domestic work, sex work, etc.)

2. Primacy of the principles of accountability, participation and inclusivity/ non-discrimination in working methodologies, and organisational structures and procedures. In this respect, self-representation and organisation of those directly affected by trafficking are strongly encouraged and supported.


GAATW supports the sharing of knowledge, working experiences and working methodologies amongst its members, in order to enhance the effectiveness of collective anti-trafficking activities.

They are the largest and most prolific anti-trafficking organisation to work directly with sex worker organisations, having acknowledged there critical difference between sex work and trafficking. They also recognise that sex workers are the people best placed to identify people who have been trafficked into the sex industry and to pro-actively work with sex workers' rights organisations to assist those who identify as forced or coerced, to migrate to a safer setting well away from the sex work environment and into a temporary supported environment. They understand sex workers’ reluctance to approach law enforcement in criminalised settings and have at times, provided resources and support to facilitate the safe passage of identified victims out of the industry.

They are the largest anti-trafficking organisation to publicly make the distinction between sex work and trafficking, and have also been critical of those organisations whose ideological approach hinders the work that they and sex workers' rights organisations are trying to do. They too, are based in Bangkok.

Here are a few of their most informative resources, statements and press releases -

Policy Brief - CRIMINALISING CLIENTS ENDANGERS SEX WORKERS AND CREATES BARRIERS TO EXITING SEX WORK: LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE ANTI-TRAFFICKING INDUSTRY
http://www.gaatw.org/advocacy/Bill_C-36-GAATW_brief.pdf

WHAT’S THE COST OF A RUMOR? A GUIDE TO SORTING OUT THE MYTHS AND THE FACTS ABOUT SPORTING EVENTS AND TRAFFICKING
http://www.gaatw.org/publications/Whats ... 5.2011.pdf

MOVING BEYOND SUPPLY AND DEMAND CATCHPHRASES - Asessing the uses and imitations of demand-based approaches in anti-trafficking
http://www.gaatw.org/publications/Movin ... TW2011.pdf

WRITTEN STATEMENT TO THE 23RD SESSION OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY - The need for a critical approach to ‘demand’ discourses in work to end human trafficking
http://www.gaatw.org/statements/GAATWSt ... 5.2013.pdf

US bill to pressure countries that do not criminalise the purchase of sex must be dropped, say rights groups
http://www.gaatw.org/resources/statemen ... rop-hr4703

GAATW-IS Statement on attack on UN research calling for the decriminalisation of sex work
http://www.gaatw.org/resources/statemen ... f-sex-work

STATEMENT 17 DECEMBER: INTERNATIONAL DAY TO END VIOLENCE AGAINST SEX WORKERS
http://www.gaatw.org/resources/statemen ... ex-workers

GAATW’s Annual Publication Explores the Ultimate Costs of the Anti-trafficking Industry
http://www.nswp.org/news/gaatw-s-annual ... g-industry


ARTICLE BY A FORMER BOARD MEMBER OF THE GLOBAL NETWORK OF SEX WORKER PROJECTS ABOUT THE GENESIS OF THE COLLABORATION WITH GAATW AND THE RISE OF ABOLITIONISM. - Jo Doezema
http://www.isiswomen.org/index.php?opti ... Itemid=452
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby Cordelia » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:13 pm

parel » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:30 am wrote:Thanks Cordelia. At least one woman on this site is listening to someone identifying as "we" and not "they".



You're welcome. I'd be very surprised if most people haven't known--or at least have met or been acquainted with--multiple sex workers, even if their livelihood isn't/wasn't acknowledged. I know I have and I liked them all; in retrospect none were people I'd want to see harmed or de-valued, or wish shame upon or prejudice against. Or think that they didn't deserve the basic worker rights and occupation safety laws given to others. Or that governments and/or 'human rights' activists know what's best by deeming them better off in having their customer base threatened, labeled and punished as criminals. If acts between adults don't involve coercion or harm and suffering but does involve the exchange of money, who has any right to interfere?

For anyone else bothered by iconic Gloria Steinem's self-righteous, hypocritical (imo) analogy that "Prostitution is commercial rape" (if it's not already acknowledged or posted here; I can't keep up):

"By advocating policies that deter men from purchasing sex, their approach tackles both the supply side and the demand side of the sex trafficking industry. Steinem credits her two early years in India with the understanding of the linkage between gender and race, caste and class, and between gender and violence. 'I got influenced by the Gandhian movement and it changed my life............."'
(http://archive.financialexpress.com/new ... em/1221602

(It's a long way from Toledo to Calcutta, Gloria.)

In response to Steinem and worth the read:

"Like many other occupations, sex work is also an occupation, and it is probably one of the 'oldest' profession' in the world because it meets an important social demand............"
https://storify.com/carolleigh/gloria-steinem-a-swerf

Also from above link, this is a 1989 clip still relevant, since, well, the profession may be ancient but the basics not much changed.

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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:17 pm

Call me Mr stupid, but its none of my business.

So whats the big deal with a thread such as this, or a thousand other such threads that poke their heads up around here?

Changing the way that money is created.

Stopping fukn war.

As a human being that is my business
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby brekin » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:43 pm

slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:17 pm wrote:Call me Mr stupid, but its none of my business.

So whats the big deal with a thread such as this, or a thousand other such threads that poke their heads up around here?

Changing the way that money is created.

Stopping fukn war.

As a human being that is my business


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If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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brekin
 
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Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:59 pm

brekin » 29 Jan 2016 17:43 wrote:
slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:17 pm wrote:Call me Mr stupid, but its none of my business.

So whats the big deal with a thread such as this, or a thousand other such threads that poke their heads up around here?

Changing the way that money is created.

Stopping fukn war.

As a human being that is my business


Image



Your a smart guy Brekin. And you've just convinced me that I really need to take that nasty Ayahuasca journey.

Care to join me?
slimmouse
 
Posts: 6129
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:41 am
Location: Just outside of you.
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: Prostitution - whose choice is it?

Postby brekin » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:09 pm

slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:59 pm wrote:
brekin » 29 Jan 2016 17:43 wrote:
slimmouse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:17 pm wrote:Call me Mr stupid, but its none of my business.

So whats the big deal with a thread such as this, or a thousand other such threads that poke their heads up around here?

Changing the way that money is created.

Stopping fukn war.

As a human being that is my business


Image



Your a smart guy Brekin. And you've just convinced me that I really need to take that nasty Ayahuasca journey.

Care to join me?


Sure, give me a second to pack.

Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

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