What is a globalist? The working definition thread

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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:36 am

Sounder » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:48 am wrote:
me
So then, shall we make up a list of the horrible things that the respective ‘sides’ facilitate and then use our ‘basic principles’ to weigh the relative horribleness so we may then absolve the less horrible party?



you
Nope- it's not a zero sum game. That's a false dichotomy.


I know it is, by implication I was referring to this:

In what way does any of that stop Putin from being a reactionary populist who stokes the fires of nationalism, homophobia and the like (whilst jumping in bed with ultranationalists even farther to the right) in order to help restore the reach of a crumbled empire?



There's a strong case to be made that Putin is "a reactionary populist who stokes the fires of nationalism, homophobia and the like (whilst jumping in bed with ultranationalists even farther to the right) in order to help restore the reach of a crumbled empire"

Your response, "So then, shall we make up a list of the horrible things that the respective ‘sides’ facilitate and then use our ‘basic principles’ to weigh the relative horribleness so we may then absolve the less horrible party?", seems stuck in the mire of the false dichotomy. Certainly, it has very little to do with what I have been consistently saying.

Sounder » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:24 am wrote:
You should stop running around with characters like jakell in my opinion, if you want to keep your own views on these matters more clear.


Listen fella, I don't hang with anyone, yet I find tidbits of wisdom strewn all about the place, people thinking aloud and expressing many flavors of understanding that might otherwise remain totally outside my personal wheelhouse..


In all fairness, I don't recall you associating with and/or defending jakell of late. It is true that if and when you did, it doesn't make you look great in regards to white nationalism, immigrant bashing and the like. Even if he keeps claiming to be an anti-fascist or something...

Now back to Globalism.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby stefano » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:40 am

American Dream » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:13 pm wrote:It's not clear to me what you mean about the US definitely not being a nation-state. Hasn't the State there tried- and largely succeeded- to forge a trans-ethnic national identity?

That's a good question. I don't think it has succeeded. The cultural opposition in America is over two different ideas of the national identity: it's between people who think the national identity is a racial and cultural one (white, English-speaking) and those who espouse that other, trans-ethnic identity. As long as there's such disagreement about who is American, I don't reckon there is an American nation. And the same is true across the post-colonial world, with a few small exceptions like Botswana or Lesotho, where borders happened to have been drawn along the lines of older settlement patterns. The rest of us have our flags and passports and football teams, but I think most people recognise that we aren't nations. Our fragmentation within national boundaries has made it easier for imperialists to divide and exploit us, and here, too, I think that supranational organisations like the African Union or Mercosur are positive in creating a channel to negotiate a fairer economic dispensation. To go the other way - to try to create new states for old nations - is a bad idea (Biafra!), but when the state is not the highest unit I think it becomes more feasible to engineer structures that can work at more local levels.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:47 am

I see things differently. The folks thronging the working class shopping malls of the US can be from most anywhere and be "Americans", as long as they speak English, spend money, and support the dominant regime somehow. Enemies du jour excepted. That does not mean they have the same status as "white" christian types, of course.

I see it as more a question of class than ethnicity, as those people from ghettoized neighborhoods where there are no jobs, shit jobs and/or illegal jobs can most credibly claim to be treated like non-citizens, especially if brown/black...


On Edit: Speaking with a strong accent and being openly non-assimilated to White Christian norms can hurt one's acceptance, especially in more homogenous and reactionary mainstream locales.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby Sounder » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:35 pm

I do not like it at all when some meta-narrative is inserted that only serves to distract from some interesting material and opinions, i.e. the subject at hand. This will be the last I have to say about this diversion.




Sounder » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:24 am wrote:
You should stop running around with characters like jakell in my opinion, if you want to keep your own views on these matters more clear.




Listen fella, I don't hang with anyone, yet I find tidbits of wisdom strewn all about the place, people thinking aloud and expressing many flavors of understanding that might otherwise remain totally outside my personal wheelhouse..



In all fairness, I don't recall you associating with and/or defending jakell of late.


You cannot set yourself up as a judge if there is no case to be made.

Hear me now AD, I do defend jakell regularly and will continue to do so because I read what he has to say and find him to be a reasonable and thoughtful person. You are not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by seeing others as being no more than the label that you insist must remain attached to them.

It is true that if and when you did, it doesn't make you look great in regards to white nationalism, immigrant bashing and the like. Even if he keeps claiming to be an anti-fascist or something...


Yes, even if.... :wallhead: :wallhead: :wallhead:
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:41 am

Anti-fascistNews.net recently published an article about web magazine Heathen Harvest. Sadly, it rings true:

In almost every interview on the site they will begin referencing racial and neo-fascist themes. Often times questions reference the perennial traditionalism of [openly fascist political philosopher] Julius Evola , books like Oswald Spengler’s The Decline of the West, or racial paganism....

Their podcast, The Forest Passage, drops much of the pretense and takes us directly back to the racism of the Alt Right. In Podcast #12, they open with jokes like calling our current period the “current year,” a joke from the rabidly racist and anti-Semitic podcast The Daily Shoah. They go on to deride “liberals” for their universalizing morality, they admire nationalism instead of “globalism,” and certainly side with the idea that elites should be running society…. In this episode one of the hosts discusses Germany’s choice to let in Syrian refugees, which they say is “destroying” Europe. They present contemporary politics as “Nationalism vs. Globalism,” presenting the common straw-man argument from fascists that to be against nationalism is to be in favor of global corporate capitalism.


http://antifascistnews.net/2016/02/13/n ... -entryism/
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby jakell » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:21 am

Had to check the link to see what sort of site 'Heathen Harvest' is. As it's a music site it seems to belong more on your 'lines' thread'.
If antifascistnews are referencing an overwhelming and sudden change in their orientation, then we are looking at something similar to RedIceRadio which I think deserved more discussion. Gradual change (in whatever direction) is to be expected, but sudden change sort of points to external forces, or at least tends to stand out.

I'm not that convinced about there being a big problem with the themes they discuss in their podcast**, some of those described here seem to overlap with current general themes anyway. I was amused by them referencing Spengler's 'Decline of the West' as belonging among fascist material, a rather glaring error that suggest that the whoever wrote this piece is not that knoweldgeable.

**I might have a listen to it now, just to see.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby Sounder » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:50 am

AD wrote...
The far right obscures the systemic nature of the problem by blaming refugees, jews, Black Lives Matter, or maybe "the Globalists", the "NWO" and other such phantoms. A "left wing" anti-elitism that could forge an alliance with such misguided racists would have to be totally fucking nuts.


It would seem that ideology of both the left and the right ‘obscure the systemic nature of the problem’.

Right here you suggest that your analysis of the ‘systemic nature of the problem’ asserts that ‘the Globalists’ and the “NWO” are ghosts with no real existence.

If so, then what is the Empire that Negri is talking about? A world Empire cannot be built without a fair number of trans-national agreements being made in high rise lawyer’s offices.

Also the negative association of concerns about ‘globalists’ with ‘blaming refugees, jews, Black Lives Matter’ serves inhibit discussion about very real systemic problems.

For instance, one need not be any kind of nationalist to be able to realize that decision making centers that are far removed from your locale will be less responsive or interested in local issues.

AD, you are welcome to advance your opinion that globalism is a phantom or whatever, but surely there is a better way to advance a systemic analysis of the nature of problem than to conflate concerns about globalism with the nasty traits of ‘right-wingers’.

Cause, you know, that seems to obscure more than to elucidate the ‘systemic nature of the problem'.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:38 am

Your thinking here seem a bit off. I'm certainly not disputing that Globalization exists. I am however questioning a lot about the social construct of "the Globalists", which does carry a lot of questionable baggage. Same thing goes for "NWO". While there can be a kernel of truth within both, that does not mean that all of the embedded thinking which goes along with such ill-defined terms should be swallowed whole.

As to Negri and Empire, I think I alluded to the fact upthread that I'm not in complete agreement with some iterations of the thesis. The excerpt from 2008 is a bit closer to my views, because there he is acknowledging that the Nation/State is very much alive and well, especially regarding the reigning "world powers" such as the US, Russia, China, etc.

Sounder » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:50 am wrote:Also the negative association of concerns about ‘globalists’ with ‘blaming refugees, jews, Black Lives Matter’ serves inhibit discussion about very real systemic problems.

For instance, one need not be any kind of nationalist to be able to realize that decision making centers that are far removed from your locale will be less responsive or interested in local issues.

AD, you are welcome to advance your opinion that globalism is a phantom or whatever, but surely there is a better way to advance a systemic analysis of the nature of problem than to conflate concerns about globalism with the nasty traits of ‘right-wingers’.


Here I think you're missing something very important. I think the fact that extreme reactionaries are using murky claims about "globalists" in in order to stoke the flames of hatred against the "Other" (be it refugees, Muslims, Jews, survivors of the slavery/apartheid systems, etc.), and using that hatred and dehumanization in order to pump up their agenda about white, nativist, Christian, heterosexual, male supremacy.

Of course they can and do vary the blend of reactionary scapegoating, as open advocacy of Nazism, the Klan, Bircherism etc, is out of fashion, and they want very much to organize and build a movement. Therein lies the rub.

Attaching in any way the idea that state-sponsored killings and torture of Iran, Syria, Russia are somehow ok- or even good- just brings the discourse to an even lower level and more fucked-up level.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby divideandconquer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:51 am

In my humble and simplistic opinion, "globalist" is just a warm and fuzzy term for the infinitesimally small and extraordinarily united predatory elite who are only interested in consolidating and strengthening their power and wealth. Anyone in power who dares to stand against them are removed, assassinated, disgraced, etc. Everything else is essentially live theater--often times a giant snuff film--for the masses.

I mean, what is the TPP-- and all of the "free trade" agreements-- but a globalist agenda to consolidate[ and strengthen the power of the predatory globalists?
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:16 am

The term "globalist" serves as a trojan horse for vile thought forms that we are seeing perhaps a bit more of on RI of late: immigrant bashing, anti-Black Racism, Xenophobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, etc.

The term "ruling class" works much better.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby Sounder » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:22 pm

The term "ruling class" works much better.


I disagree. Elements of the 'ruling class' are not all united, many of them detest each other greatly.

It would seem that any 'systemic analysis of the nature of our problem' , would use this as a leverage point if we are to have any hope of averting the techno-paradise that is being planned for us.

As I mentioned before, some 'conspiracy theorists' have found reason to believe that a few rich guys were killed on the Titanic because they opposed the creation of the FED.

Let's not obscure the nature of the problem.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:22 pm

Is it neoliberalism then? How can we tell one schlub who is not a globalist from one who is?
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby Joao » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:58 pm

Timely piece from Wallerstein without many answers, but nevertheless relevant to the OP question as well as to interrogation of the term "nation-state":

The Left and the Nation: Unresolved Ambiguities
Immanuel Wallerstein, Feb. 15, 2016

The term “nation” has had many different meanings across the centuries. But these days, and ever since the French Revolution more or less, the term has been linked to the state, as in “nation-state.” In this usage, “nation” refers to those who are members by right of the community that is located within a state.

Whether those who form a nation give rise to the creation of a state or a state creates the category of a nation and thereby rights within the state is a long-standing debate. Myself, I believe that states create nations and not the reverse.

The issue however is why states create nations, and what should be the attitude of the “left” to the concept of the nation. For some on the left, the concept of the nation is the great equalizer. It is an assertion that everyone (or almost everyone) has the right to full and equal participation in the decision-making of the state, as opposed to the rights of only a minority (for example, the aristocracy) to full participation. Today, we often call this a Jacobin view of the nation.

Jacobinism gives rise to the category of a citizen. Persons are citizens by birthright and not because they have a particular “ethnic” origin or a particular religion or any other characteristic that is attributed to them, either by themselves or by others. Citizens have votes (as of a certain age). Each citizen has one vote. All citizens are therefore equal before the law.

According to this perception of citizenship, it is crucial to consider all citizens as individuals. It is crucial to suppress the idea that there are groups who might be intermediaries between the individual and the state. Indeed, as an even more rigid view of the nation might suggest, it is illegitimate for such other groups to exist: all citizens must use the language of the nation and no other; no religious group can have its own institutions; no customs other than those of the nation may be celebrated.

In practice, of course, people are part of many, many groups that constantly assert their demands of participation and loyalty on the part of their members. In practice, too, and often under the guise of equal treatment to all individuals, there are innumerable ways in which the equal rights of all citizens can be abridged.

The idea of citizenship can get to be defined primarily as the suffrage. And there are multiple limitations on access to the suffrage. The most obvious and numerically important one is sex. Suffrage was limited by law to men. It was often limited by income, a minimum income being required to vote. It was often limited by race, by religion, or by how many ancestor generations had been resident in the state. The net result was that what was originally conceived as a great equalizer did not in fact embrace everyone or even a majority of persons. It often embraced a rather small group.

For Jacobins who thought of themselves as the left, the solution was to fight for expansion of the suffrage. And over time, this effort bore some fruit. The suffrage did indeed get extended to more and more persons. Somehow, however, this did not achieve the objective of making all citizens, all members of the nation, equal in access to the supposed benefits of citizenship – education, health services, employment.

Given this reality of continued inequalities, there arose a counter-Jacobin view of the left. The counter-Jacobin view saw the nation not as the great equalizer, but as the great mesmerizer. The solution was not to struggle to suppress other groups but to encourage all groups to assert their value as modes of living and modes of self-consciousness. Feminists insisted that not only should women obtain the suffrage but that women had the right to their own organizations and their own consciousness. As did communities of racial and ethnic groups, so-called minorities.

The result has come to be that the left has no single view of the nation. Quite the contrary! The left is torn between ever more deeply opposing visions of the nation. Today we see this occurring in many different forms. One has been the exploding character of demands linked to gender, the social construction of what had once been thought of as genetic phenomena. But once we’re engaged in social construction, there is no obvious limit to the rights of subcategories, already defined or yet to come into social existence.

If gender is exploding, so is indigeneity. Indigeneity is also a social construction. It refers to the rights of those who lived in a certain physical area earlier than others (“migrants”). Pushed far enough, every single person is a migrant. Discussed reasonably, there are today significant social groups who do see themselves as living in groups that are significantly different from those who exercise power in the state and who wish to continue to maintain their communities in their principal existing modes of living rather than lose these rights in these boundaries because the nation asserts the rights of a nation.

One last ambiguity. Is it left to be internationalist, one-worldist, or is it left to be nationalist against the intrusion of powerful world forces? Is it left to be for the abolition of all frontiers or for the reinforcement of frontiers? Is it class-conscious to oppose nationalism or to support national resistance to imperialism?

One could take the easy way out of this debate by suggesting that the answer varies from place to place, moment to moment, situation to situation. But this is precisely the problem. The global left finds it very difficult to confront the issues directly and come up with a reasoned, politically meaningful attitude toward the concept of the nation. Since nationalism is arguably the strongest emotional commitment of the world’s peoples today, the failure of the global left to enter into a collective internal debate in a solidary manner undermines the ability of the global left to be a principal actor today on the world scene.

The French Revolution bequeathed us with a concept intended to be the great equalizer. Did it bequeath us all with a poison pill that may destroy the global left and therefore the great equalizer? An intellectual, moral, and political reunification of the global left is very urgent. It will require a good deal more of a sense of give and take than the principal actors have been showing. Still, there is no serious alternative.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm

I haven't followed Wallerstein of late- and I would never discount the importance of his ideas around world economics- but I've always thought of him as one of those more orthodox thinkers who puts struggles around White Supremacy, Patriarchy etc. in the back seat relative to Class Struggle.

If that's still where he's at, I can't say that I agree on that sort of emphasis though I do consider him an important- and valuable- theorist.
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Re: What is a globalist? The working definition thread

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:46 pm

American Dream » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:16 pm wrote:The term "globalist" serves as a trojan horse for vile thought forms that we are seeing perhaps a bit more of on RI of late: immigrant bashing, anti-Black Racism, Xenophobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, etc.

The term "ruling class" works much better.


The only "trojan" for vile thought forms at RI is your consistently intolerant copypasta, filled with violent imagery, red and black colours and steroid-filled dumbos with tattoos.

and No, the term ruling elite doesn't work better.

How about explaining where you are with regard to your contradictions? Your own point of view seems full of them.

For example you claim to be both anti-Putin and anti-The West, yet you have consistently acted as an proponent for Soros talking points at RI over many months.
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