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I was watching some flies today outside during a smoke break and noticed them noticing whatever it is they notice. So I wondered where they get the programming from. Perhaps stupid question but one that is interesting to consider. Unlike humans or other mammals they know what to do immediately once born or hatched or whatever.

Then it comes to me the saying "I would like to be a fly on the wall in that meeting", nothing paranoid, just where does that saying come from? I get it. I truly do. I also recognize that it is nonsense, but I got to wondering what is it that they see or notice?

Anthropomorphic to the max.

bugs? i swear the universe evolved things with eyes for a reason.

Duh. I've been saying this for years. Not really. Wouldn't it be weird if I had? Anyway it's amazing how animal instincts work. Just the other day I was tripping on how every animal has its own fighting style, hard-wired into them. Into their molecules. I can see why martial arts styles were modeled after different animals. I wish I'd been born with my ninja skills, but I had to work for them instead. Maybe in the future Monsanto will be able to genetically-engineer ninjas.

82_28 » Wed May 25, 2016 2:09 am wrote:I was watching some flies today outside during a smoke break and noticed them noticing whatever it is they notice. So I wondered where they get the programming from. Perhaps stupid question but one that is interesting to consider. Unlike humans or other mammals they know what to do immediately once born or hatched or whatever.

Then it comes to me the saying "I would like to be a fly on the wall in that meeting", nothing paranoid, just where does that saying come from? I get it. I truly do. I also recognize that it is nonsense, but I got to wondering what is it that they see or notice?

Anthropomorphic to the max.

DNA programs behaviour.
The insects that behaved in the right way at the right time survived and passed on their DNA. The ones that didn't... didn't.

It's as simple as that. There are platforms from which to consider the evolution of consciousness (what they 'notice'), but this isn't one of them.

As far as the fly on the wall, they're usually not even noticed by us so a perfect spy. This, combined with their faster metabolism, gives them greater powers of observation and faster reaction time.

Time perception depends on how rapidly an animal's nervous system processes sensory information. To test this ability, researchers show animals a rapidly flashing light. If the light flashes quickly enough, animals (and humans) perceive it as a solid, unblinking light. The animal's behavior or its brain activity, as measured by electrodes, reveals the highest frequency at which each species perceives the light as flashing. Animals that can detect the blinking at higher frequencies are perceiving time at a finer resolution. In other words, movements and events will appear to unfold more slowly to them—think slow-motion bullet dodging in an action movie.

The scientists who ran the new study gathered data from previous experiments on the rate at which visual information is processed in 34 vertebrates, including lizards, birds, fish and mammals. The scientists hypothesized that the ability to detect incoming sights at a high rate would be advantageous for animals that must perform the equivalent of bullet dodging—responding to visual stimuli very quickly to catch elusive prey or escape predators, for instance. These animals tend to be lighter and have faster metabolisms. The data bore out the hypothesis: species that perceived time at the finest resolutions tended to be smaller and have faster metabolisms.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ion-world/

Yeah that's why I included "time and space" to my idle speculation. I get the whole DNA thing. But what if there is some form of "downloading" going on? Like there is some sort of ancient code that has been released that is continually sent -- we sit within a "cloud" of what we call these days as download.

They know what the fuck to do. I remember a science class in my remedial school where we had some bullshit "experiment" where we had to train these worms through electricity to go the way you wanted them to in some dish with different paths. So you would just shock them when they went somewhere else to get the desired result. I dumped that class because the creepy, sadistic teacher brought in boxes of cats to dissect. I just walked out, never to return. I'll always believe that guy to be a psychopathic creep. The "metal heads" in the class were "stoked."

82_28 » Wed May 25, 2016 12:04 pm wrote:Yeah that's why I included "time and space" to my idle speculation. I get the whole DNA thing. But what if there is some form of "downloading" going on? Like there is some sort of ancient code that has been released that is continually sent -- we sit within a "cloud" of what we call these days as download.

I do enjoy the whole 'Intelligent Design' idea as a sort of thought experiment. Unfortunately, Creationists have hijacked the term and too many people associate it with them alone, but it's a lot wider than that and can include scenarios that are not at all supernatural.

I'm not too sure about this 'continuous downloading' though, most (non-supernatural) ID is really about physical manipulations that, now we understand genetic engineering, are not so fantastic. 'Continuous downloading' would very likely have an effect on organisms that we would be able to observe relative to them just being self contained and barely changing (they run off of their own ROM and not a network), we could assume though that any such downloading might have happened in the past, but doesn't seem to be happening at present, Possibly some upgrades are planned for the future and hopefully we will notice these. Look out for Earthworm 2.0

At it's very basic, ID can be considered as an alternative hypothesis to Darwinian Evolution. Try suggesting this to your average hard headed science buff though and it's often surprising at the strength of reaction, it's like you have suggested that they be baptised.

They know what the fuck to do. I remember a science class in my remedial school where we had some bullshit "experiment" where we had to train these worms through electricity to go the way you wanted them to in some dish with different paths. So you would just shock them when they went somewhere else to get the desired result. I dumped that class because the creepy, sadistic teacher brought in boxes of cats to dissect. I just walked out, never to return. I'll always believe that guy to be a psychopathic creep. The "metal heads" in the class were "stoked."

I've often noticed that some insects as well as some birds look and carry out their activities in a very robotic manor. Kinda like one of those robotic vacuum cleaners. It occurred to me that these little critters are little robots, just built with organic materials instead of manmade materials (making a bold leap and assuming there is no consciousness there). Carrying out their programming, a simple set of routines, problem, reaction, solution. Then I wonder who wrote the original programming for these organic robots, and down the rabbit hole I go. Although once in while one of these robots does seem to show a little extra insight or awareness which can be a bit spooky. Certainly larger birds show a lot more intelligence or purpose.

It seems to me that they may be born with the programming and it goes into effect as soon as the organism is booted up. I'm not against the idea of a data download though. Rupert Sheldrake, Carl Jung, among others make a great case for the morophogenetic field, cloud, collective consciousness, whatever you want to call it. Our brains may have radio wave receivers and we may be downloading all the time. Not sure if that applies to other critters, but interesting to think about.

At it's very basic, ID can be considered as an alternative hypothesis to Darwinian Evolution. Try suggesting this to your average hard headed science buff though and it's often surprising at the strength of reaction, it's like you have suggested that they be baptised.

Count me among those people, because it really isn't. Evolution is an observable fact, ID is a theory with zero supporting evidence pushed mainly by religious fanatics. Creationism was too controversial so they rebranded to ID and called it science. Same shit, different wrapping.

DrEvil » Wed May 25, 2016 3:16 pm wrote:

jakell » Wed May 25, 2016 12:46 pm wrote:I do enjoy the whole 'Intelligent Design' idea as a sort of thought experiment. Unfortunately, Creationists have hijacked the term and too many people associate it with them alone, but it's a lot wider than that and can include scenarios that are not at all supernatural.....

....At it's very basic, ID can be considered as an alternative hypothesis to Darwinian Evolution. Try suggesting this to your average hard headed science buff though and it's often surprising at the strength of reaction, it's like you have suggested that they be baptised.

Count me among those people, because it really isn't. Evolution is an observable fact, ID is a theory with zero supporting evidence pushed mainly by religious fanatics. Creationism was too controversial so they rebranded to ID and called it science. Same shit, different wrapping.

I think it's because I've spent a lot of time talking to religious folks that I've sought a common ground. It's really a way of getting Creationists to put their cards on the table so that an actual debate can ensue because I've found that a lot of people who adopt the evolution side don't actually know their stuff and start taking an almost dogmatic stance that is almost embarrassing.

You have made the equation I tried to put aside in the first paragraph. ID is not synonymous with Creationism, there are non-supernatural (or even non-Christian) alternatives, and this is nearly always my first step in getting Creationists to define their position properly... not defining one's position properly is one of the first steps to not losing a debate.

Creationists will then go on to frame the debate as a simple competition of narratives, and most science buffs fall into this trap too (it's so bloody frustrating) and therefore completely miss fact that the positions are qualitatively different, which is the significant difference.


(headers pasted back in)

Sure, there are non-religious alternatives (Aliens!), but what they have in common is zero evidence, and regardless, the main proponents of ID are creationists trying to push it as science and a valid alternative to evolution.

I don't really care if someone believes in ID for whatever reason, but I do care when they try to push it into schools on equal footing with evolution. I don't believe in compromising with idiots.

They're still harping on about teaching the controversy when there is none, complaining about discrimination when there is none and generally being complete, disingenious fucktards trying to push their personal beliefs on everyone.

I don't believe in compromising with idiots.

...disingenious fucktards trying to push their personal beliefs on everyone.

and not a hint of irony.

DrEvil » Wed May 25, 2016 4:43 pm wrote:Sure, there are non-religious alternatives (Aliens!), but what they have in common is zero evidence, and regardless, the main proponents of ID are creationists trying to push it as science and a valid alternative to evolution.

Aliens is the obvious one, but we could also posit something dwelling on this planet, and talk of non/pre-humans. the main thing is that this pushes Creationists to stop talking of 'intelligent design' and state their case in open religious terms instead, this undermines some of the pretence of a scientific approach that modern creationists adopt.

The advantage of non-supernatural ID is that it can now be considered alongside Darwinian Evolution, as there is no qualitative difference. Absence of evidence here is not evidence of absence. If we take certain forms of ID that don't involve massive sudden changes and works alongside evolution, then the evidence we have for evolution would be indistinguisable from that of ID, there would be no way of telling interference in evolution (artificial selection) from natural evolution.

The above hypotheses make no difference to the scientific position. Too many science types insist on purely naturalistic (non interventionist) evolution, to the extent that their position becomes unsupportable and dogmatic, playing right back into the hands of the Creationists again (these guys are good!)
All that science needs to show is that natural evolution is a possibility, then it's done it's job (subtle as it is). This apparently subtle position puts the onus back on Creationists who declare that it is impossible, however they cannot show why this is, and there the foot shuffling on their part begins

I don't really care if someone believes in ID for whatever reason, but I do care when they try to push it into schools on equal footing with evolution. I don't believe in compromising with idiots.

They're still harping on about teaching the controversy when there is none, complaining about discrimination when there is none and generally being complete, disingenious fucktards trying to push their personal beliefs on everyone.

tron wrote:bugs? i swear the universe evolved things with eyes for a reason.

Interestingly, from what I understand if you look at the evolution of the eye, it started as a binary light sensor, just sensing light or dark to ultimately recreating/reimaging the world.

Freitag wrote:Duh. I've been saying this for years. Not really. Wouldn't it be weird if I had? Anyway it's amazing how animal instincts work. Just the other day I was tripping on how every animal has its own fighting style, hard-wired into them. Into their molecules. I can see why martial arts styles were modeled after different animals. I wish I'd been born with my ninja skills, but I had to work for them instead. Maybe in the future Monsanto will be able to genetically-engineer ninjas.

Vid that is probably better than most movies I've seen this year:

82_28 wrote:Yeah that's why I included "time and space" to my idle speculation. I get the whole DNA thing. But what if there is some form of "downloading" going on? Like there is some sort of ancient code that has been released that is continually sent -- we sit within a "cloud" of what we call these days as download.

They know what the fuck to do. I remember a science class in my remedial school where we had some bullshit "experiment" where we had to train these worms through electricity to go the way you wanted them to in some dish with different paths. So you would just shock them when they went somewhere else to get the desired result. I dumped that class because the creepy, sadistic teacher brought in boxes of cats to dissect. I just walked out, never to return. I'll always believe that guy to be a psychopathic creep. The "metal heads" in the class were "stoked."

I imagine the ancient code is constantly being modified and updated due to environmental variables. Alas, most of the cloud is still probably a cloud of unknowing.

A Cloud of Unknowing

Do not imagine that when I call it a darkness or a cloud that it is a cloud amassed with vapours that float in the air, or a darkness such as you have in your house at night, when your candle is out, for such a darkness. With little imagination you could picture the summer skies breaking through the clouds or a clear light brightening the dark winter. This is false, it isn’t what I mean for when I say “darkness” I mean a lack of knowing, just as whatever you do know or have forgotten is dark to you, because you do not see it in your spiritual eyes. For this reason, that which is between you and your God is termed, not a cloud of the air, but a cloud of unknowing. 4: 410-419

http://www.kyrie.com/inner/contemplativ ... _cloud.htm

The Green Brain (1966), initially published as Greenslaves, is a science fiction novel by Frank Herbert.

Plot introduction[edit]
The book is set in the not-so-distant future, where humankind has all but succeeded in controlling all life on the planet and almost completely wiping out all insect life. The earth is divided into a "Green Zone" which humans totally dominate (or so they believe) and a diminishing "Red Zone" that is not yet conquered.
The "Green Brain" of the title is an intelligent organism that embodies and arises from nature's resistance to human domination. It is able to command social insects to form humanoid-shaped collective organisms which it uses to infiltrate the "Green Zone".
The book is about a small team sent into the jungles of Brazil to investigate the problem, who find out that some of their assumptions were wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Brain