The Brexit thread

Moderators: DrVolin, 82_28, Elvis, Jeff

The Brexit thread

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:00 am

A quick cross sample of what I suspect is typical working class opinion to the question of Brexit.

I dont hear a single murmur of this being reflected in the MainSpinMedia anywhere.

Interested in any fellow "Brits" opinion, as well as the rest of you of course.

http://boards.footymad.net/showthread.php?t=38144182
slimmouse
 
Posts: 6129
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:41 am
Location: Just outside of you.
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby 82_28 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:15 am

Let's see what the NFL does. No, seriously. I have no idea what the political arrangements would be called, but there is strong talk of expanding or relocating an NFL team to London.

The NFL is back in Los Angeles. London is next.

NFL owners voted on Tuesday for two franchises, the St. Louis Rams and the San Diego Chargers (should they choose to exercise their option), to relocate to Los Angeles.

The fans in question obviously didn’t want this to happen, but it did anyway. The owners call the shots, and Los Angeles is simply too big a market to neglect. That is the logic of the NFL. Leaving fans behind in St. Louis and San Diego for a move to LA was nothing more than a cold business decision, driven by the numbers. Until NFL teams are bound to fulfill a different set of obligations — like they are in Green Bay — it’ll stay that way.

It’s why this move to LA was such a forgone conclusion, and it’s why the NFL’s move to London is, too.


http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/01/nfl-ram ... ondon-soon

So point being, is that if the NFL goes there they would unofficially "become" part of the US and would have brexited. It seems stupid, but if the NFL succeeds there, welcome to the US style militarized club!

(Note I love American football). Also it's called football because the ball is a foot long.

Anyway there is that to consider. It would be interesting to see how they schedule the games especially on the west coast.

But whatever. Just what popped into mind. Probably neither here nor there.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11175
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby lucky » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:54 am

The problem I have with the 'in or out' decision is that both sides of the coin spout equal amounts of rhetoric I really don't know where we (as a Brit) would stand with either outcome. Immigration appears to be the main argument for the exiters while the stayinners worry about economic collapse if we go it alone...of course there is more to it than that but I really don't know what would be best for the UK.
There's holes in the sky where rain gets in
the holes are small
that's why rain is thin.
User avatar
lucky
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:39 am
Location: Interzone
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby coffin_dodger » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:11 am

This is how I see Brexit - keeping it as brief as possible and from an extreme cynic point of view - in Dec 2012 David Cameron stated that he wished to reinstate 'Victorian values' during his term in office. These values would suit uncontrolled corporate power very nicely. We are bound by EU laws to treat everyday working people with at least some respect. Release from Europe would facilitate even more ties to be forged with the US corporate structure. Leaving the EU will have long term and imo dire consequences for the average Joe in the UK. The UK is already an unfettered playground for the rich of all nationalities to reside in and the consequences of Brexit are too delicious for the elite to pass up on. David Cameron is lying when he says he's in the pro-stay camp - it's just for the public perception. I think (but earnestly hope not) that we will exit, regardless of voting. It's the plan. I so hope I'm wrong.
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby stefano » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:04 pm

slimmouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:00 am wrote:A quick cross sample of what I suspect is typical working class opinion to the question of Brexit.

Think you're right - that the working class leans 'leave'. A good poll tracker run by The Economist is here, updated twice a week. Basically Tories, UKIP voters, English and Welsh, the 'poor' (meaning trades and unemployed) and old people favour 'leave', while Labour and Lib Dems, the Scottish, the 'rich' (professional and managerial) and the young favour 'remain'. Overall, leave is 43% to 42% remain, with 12% don't know. Momentum seems to be with leave. I also suspect more 'don't knows' are leave than remain.

coffin_dodger wrote:This is how I see Brexit - keeping it as brief as possible and from an extreme cynic point of view - in Dec 2012 David Cameron stated that he wished to reinstate 'Victorian values' during his term in office. These values would suit uncontrolled corporate power very nicely. We are bound by EU laws to treat everyday working people with at least some respect. Release from Europe would facilitate even more ties to be forged with the US corporate structure. Leaving the EU will have long term and imo dire consequences for the average Joe in the UK. The UK is already an unfettered playground for the rich of all nationalities to reside in and the consequences of Brexit are too delicious for the elite to pass up on. David Cameron is lying when he says he's in the pro-stay camp - it's just for the public perception. I think (but earnestly hope not) that we will exit, regardless of voting. It's the plan. I so hope I'm wrong.

Interesting viewpoint... hadn't heard it expressed like that. My take is that Cameron promised a referendum to get his outright victory in the last general election, and that he's now throwing the full machinery of propaganda to promote remain. I don't think it's possible for anyone to say what Brexit would mean, since obviously no one knows what the treaty relationship will be between the UK and the EU afterwards. If the Brits want the trade and investment advantages they enjoy now, then they will sign treaties that will make it so that the relationship essentially stays what it is now. Except that British voters will have no representation in Brussels, making the situation even less democratic than the one they have. That's more or less what the Norwegians and Icelanders are dealing with.

If I were them I'd vote leave, but I don't think Brexit would make such a massive practical difference, given the nature of the relationship that will follow.
User avatar
stefano
 
Posts: 2672
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:50 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby slimmouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

I just found it interesting how the latest polls on stay or leave appears to me to mirror the Sanders/Clinton pollng in the US.

Not to menion other skewed similarities in media coverage WRT the issue of which is best, You know, in terms of air time or point of view or such similar things.

Its Clinton and Stay.

We should of course leave, preferably with several others at the same time.
slimmouse
 
Posts: 6129
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 7:41 am
Location: Just outside of you.
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby American Dream » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:44 pm

Brexit referendum: in-out, in-out, shake it all about


The EU vote offers a mirror to the British left. The right-wing “remain” and “leave” coalitions are both monstrosities. It is up to us to liberate ourselves.


https://roarmag.org/essays/brexit-eu-re ... key-cokey/
American Dream
 
Posts: 19841
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:10 am

Brexit For Tanks? The EU and The Working Class

Image

Rage Against Capital takes a look the EU and what it means for the working classes and the oppressed internationally as well as critiquing the CPGB-ML's endorsement of Brexit.

So called “Brexit” refers to the exit of Britain from the EU, a united coalition of European countries that was formed after WW2. Many of the exponents of “Brexit” tend to be British Nationalists, Neo-Nazis, Fascists, or just simple racist reactionaries (e.g. UK Independence Party). It’s a wonder then why any leftist groups would support “Brexit” given it’s association with heavily reactionary groups and movements. However, CPGB-ML has an answer to that..or at least they think they do.


Continues at: https://libcom.org/news/brexit-tanks-eu ... s-12062016
American Dream
 
Posts: 19841
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:22 pm

A reasonable ability to move and work across countries in Europe, have the ordinary person buy and sell and live and be educated and get their health treated in - what is not to love?

OTOH
Being run by an unelected, unaccountable cadre (EU Audit anyone??) of Brussels based bureaucrats.

Whenever I see two options on a Vote, I see BS - why not a 'Norway' option?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5878
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby semper occultus » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:07 pm

....a lone nut shouting "Britain First" has just brutally murdered a female MP in the street - a photogenic young mother of 2 kids who was in the Remain campaign - leading to suspension of the Referendum campaign after a week in which the Remain campaign was getting absolutely hammered....

..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Jo Cox MP dead after shooting attack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36550304


reader comment from here : http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86104

mikgen • 31 minutes ago
No thread on the recent tragedy so I post here. Please, remove if unwanted:

Sometimes history repeat itself (and not always as a farce). I just read about the horrific killing of the young Labour MP , Jo Cox. It is eerily reminiscent of our Euro campaign.
Three days before we were going to vote for or against Sweden joining the Euro in 2003, our foreign minister, another young woman, Anna Lindh, was stabbed to death. The campaigns were suspended and we were treated to days of propaganda - how much Ms Lindh had wanted us to join the Euro, how much we owed her, etc. All really disgusting. The polls that had shown a NO victory since early March (this was in September) suddenly in some cases showed an even race. However, on the election day people still did not vote in the way our politicians wanted, and we kept or Swedish krona.
User avatar
semper occultus
 
Posts: 2859
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: London,England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby tapitsbo » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:06 am

No shortage of grief for the assassination of Ms. Cox in a society that is markedly hush-hush about many of the more egregious crimes committed in its midst...
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:51 pm

It's a tale of two diddies as far as I'm concerned. I have a desire to see both campaigns lose, and the champions of both viewpoints be utterly destroyed in the fullness of public view - especially after witnessing Bob Geldof and Nigel Farage making such massive twats of themselves at the Battle of the Thames - but it's not even a strong desire.

Since this referendum features a binary question my favoured result of both sides getting a massive and thorough skelping is not possible.

We all have to make a choice. Here goes.

I see it as being England's referendum really, and not my own personal business in the way that the Scottish ref was. It's hard for me to get truly invested in the arguments here. Immigration is a political issue in Scotland, of course, but it still carries nowhere near the same emotional or political weight that it does in England (or Wales apparently). Likewise the calls for sovereignty and self-government - despite appearances to the contrary - are not quite so persuasive up here. Most of us long ago became used to not quite having access to the full range of tools that self-government affords a sovereign nation. That's not something that England has ever really had to face up to (until now).

It's instructive to watch both sides lying and manipulating "facts" shamelessly to suit their cause, from a position of relative detachment, because you get to see how these apparently chaotic democratic shitshows are relentlessly (yet not always predictably or one-sidedly) shaped. On the other hand I wouldn't worry too much over the suspension of campaigning following the death of Jo Cox, because no one from either side has said anything worthwhile or interesting since the campaigns began anyway.

I hope no one will mind if I recycle a comment I made a while back about the EU vote (on a football forum, just like Slimmouse's one quoted above) here. It was a weighing up of pros and cons.

A couple of years back I would've been definite pro-EU - might even have campaigned to stay in it. I like the European Working Time Directive and the employment rights (and others) that are enshrined in the EC Human Rights Act. The more vociferous clowns on the dodgy-right of the Tory party (Fox, Gove, Patel) really would like to "emulate Singapore" and make us all "work like the Chinese", and it troubles them that laws preventing this have been 'imposed upon us from Brussels'. Well, it doesn't trouble me.

I don't ever want to see the "Britannia Unchained" mob getting fully off the chain, and some aspects of EU law act as a break on their free-market wank fantasies. On the other hand, the EU makes the privatization of most utilities mandatory, and is itself heavily neoliberal in outlook... then there's the prospect of TTIP.
But the right wing of the Tories, and it's Atlantic Bridge subset, would enthusiastically sign us up to TTIP anyway - EU or not - so that's kind of a non-issue.

The Common Fisheries Policy is a problem. It has to be said, though, that the UK Government (Heath, then Thatcher) are more to blame for it's long-standing unfairness to Scotland than the EU is.

The treatment of Greece by the EU has been horrifying, but it's not just been Greece - Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and others have all had their democracy interfered with and their dignity trampled. The IMF would've been no kinder in the old days, though, and the Germans also have valid cause for complaint as they see their tax money thrown at a supranational political project to which few of them have any real emotional attachment, but it's still a fucking disgrace, and one which the EU top dogs clearly regret not a jot.

On Ukraine, the EU acted like the political wing of NATO, in my view, and that's not a role I want to see it playing, especially not now that it is making real progress in developing it's own military structures.

The EU Parliament unavoidably gives a bigger voice and a certain amount of legitimization to extremist and far-right parties who are (mostly) considered jokes in their own homelands. I suppose I can't complain about that though, since it is a rare example of the EU suffering from an excess of democracy rather than a lack of it. And a Brexit vote will inevitably be seen as an endorsement of far-right views anyway, domestically - lock the doors, build a wall, send them back, treat Liam Fox like a legitimate politician, etc.

I'm not a fan of the Tory Establishment, and they seem worryingly fond of the EU - in their actions rather than their words. Heath begged embarassingly at the door of the EEC for nearly a decade, asking for entry, and Thatcher signed the Single European Act to create the political union, while Major signed Maastricht and led us disastrously into the ERM. Most of the big steps towards greater EU integration have taken place under Tory governments. That's a puzzler, is it not?

I like the idea of the EU, but it is the reality that we'd be entering into "ever closer union" with. I'm left with the question of what I think is more dangerous for Scotland - being part of a potential European superstate with all it's current failings and lopsidedness, with it's limited good points and glaring bad points, or being part of an "unfettered" UK under a rampantly Atlanticist Tory government for the foreseeable.

I consider the UK to be by far the greater and more immediate threat to our interests, but that doesn't make the EU any more attractive.

It's difficult, but my opinions have definitely changed over the last few years, moving more and more towards an Out vote.


The above comment illustrates very succintly why nobody likes me on my football forum.

I'm wavering on those views now anyway. The official Out campaign is so blatantly atrocious in it's attitudes - that Breaking Point ad, among other things - and staffed by such egregious arseholes (Liam Fox, Gove, Johnson, Patel, etc.) that I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote for it even if they threatened to deport me otherwise.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
User avatar
AhabsOtherLeg
 
Posts: 3285
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:43 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:52 am

And in fevered nightmares I saw it all: the plan is brexit. Too good for the Overlords to miss. The warnings were plain and clear - leaving Europe would be bad. We would be in unchartered waters. Uncertainty. Confusion. A reset. An opportunity.

Losing face for backing stay, Cameron steps down - mock relenting to the psychopath of the Bullingdon Boys Club, Boris Johnson - the boy who would be King. Charming eccentricity quickly fades, replaced by iron-fist realities. A new, lower standard of living must be accepted by all, except for those with the guiding hand. The first nation to actively pursue devolution in an evolutionary/sociological sense. And we have ourselves to blame, for the vote never lies.
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:06 am

This is rough! I wouldn't want this choice. (Who would?) Of course it's binary nonsense. Distorted democracy at work, as usual. As a Greek, what's not to like about a blow against the EU that might facilitate Greece's escape from its stranglehold down the line? But the main force in the leave coalition is obviously not "left" but resides with the worst people politically, who will be empowered to go hog-wild and treat it as a big win for racism and anti-immigration. UK will lose the EU limits on hypercapitalism (which it has, alongside the neoliberal management) and no doubt go straight into TTIP and worse. I can see the argument that Cameron would want it, if only it didn't spell the end of Cameron's tenure. And Boris? I'll defer to the smart people here from the UK who are arguing against Brexit. Also, while personal impressions shouldn't over-figure, Corbyn's a lot easier for me trust than... Sanders!
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 14479
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:42 am

JackRiddler » 21 Jun 2016 08:06 wrote:This is rough! I wouldn't want this choice. (Who would?) Of course it's binary nonsense. Distorted democracy at work, as usual. As a Greek, what's not to like about a blow against the EU that might facilitate Greece's escape from its stranglehold down the line? But the main force in the leave coalition is obviously not "left" but resides with the worst people politically, who will be empowered to go hog-wild and treat it as a big win for racism and anti-immigration. UK will lose the EU limits on hypercapitalism (which it has, alongside the neoliberal management) and no doubt go straight into TTIP and worse. I can see the argument that Cameron would want it, if only it didn't spell the end of Cameron's tenure. And Boris? I'll defer to the smart people here from the UK who are arguing against Brexit. Also, while personal impressions shouldn't over-figure, Corbyn's a lot easier for me trust than... Sanders!


Interesting window into your decision-making process, which turns out to be so devoid of principle that it's also just as interesting a window into your conniving commie soul.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 13 guests