rigorousintuition.ca

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:39 am**

America has always been a fertile breeding ground for wacky religions, and many True Believers get shirty when you question their faith. But this board is called Rigorous Intuition and I am tired of having your faith shoved down my throat. (You know who you are.)

Still: I want to believe! So, help me! Please!

1. Post a link to any eyewitness who positively identifies Omar Mateen as the Orlando shooter.

2. Post a link to any eyewitness who tells us whether the Orlando shooter was masked or not.

3. Post a link to any eyewitness who gives even the vaguest physical description of the Orlando shooter.

Should be an easy task, if your faith isn't built on straw.

I believe
For ev'ry drop of rain that falls
A flower grows.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:24 am**

How about you start by providing evidence that Mateen was bisexual?

You wrote:

Re: Orlando / Pulse Mass Shooting Thread
Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:55 pm
Fourth Base, you just keep on exposing yourself for what you are: a dishonest, powerworshipping, timewasting fascist; QED. As you demonstrate for the zillionth time, it is a waste of time even addressing you because you are not honest; and in any case, this is an antifascist board. So I won't waste any more time with you.

Thankfully, most people on this board (or at least most visitors to it) are still capable of reading.

Enough, finally. 'Bye. And do drive carefully.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
^line drawn

Back on-topic, if humanly possible:

nashvillebrook, that is very interesting. Thank you for posting it.

nashvillebrook » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:24 pm wrote:

Image

Image

If the FBI are really looking for someone with the means, motive and opportunity to organise a murderous attack on the Pulse nightclub, then they might think about interrogating (as a person of interest) any powerful rightwing Florida politicians with a demonstrable record of vicious anti-gay bigotry.

Where might the Feds start? Hmmm.... Not with a white man, obviously...

EDIT: typos And: This guy is not just virulently anti-gay but also virulently racist -- both of these demonstrably. Compare and contrast with the Designated Culprit, Omar Mateen (deceased, of course) -- a darkskinned bisexual Afghan-American, and a well-known regular at the club. And also the loving father of a very small son, whom we are instructed to believe he abandoned without a qualm.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:33 pm, edited 6 times in total.
"FBI: Alleged shooters did NOT post support for jihad on social media." [LINK]

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:58 am**

I'm going to post with all respect what I think is an obvious question:

Why does it matter?

Let me break it down. There are two basic scenarios when it comes down to Omar Mateen:

1: Omar was the shooter, which leads us to

a. The whole crime was an op set up by nefarious organizations to push public sentiment one way or another

b. The whole crime happened basically like the media has presented it. Case closed.

2. Omar was NOT the shooter, which leads us to

a. The whole crime was an op set up by nefarious organizations to push public sentiment one way or another

b. The crime was NOT an op, but the authorities have covered up or mistaken the real shooter's identity for some unknown purpose

If there was evidence that Omar was not the shooter, then obviously it opens up a new set of possibilities. However, they are the same set of possibilities that we already have with Omar being the suspected shooter. Was it an op or was it not? The basic question isn't shifted dramatically if Omar was the shooter or not.

Personally I don't think it was an op. Sure, there are some interesting links to government with his father. Sure, he worked for a private security firm linked to crazy things over the last several decades. Absolutely, there seems to be a shift in Omar's ideology AND it's strange that the feds aren't releasing the transcripts where he pledges himself to ISIS. There's enough there to question things.

But the end result of that questioning hasn't led me anywhere concrete.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:04 pm**

forgot one.two......sure the FBI tried to recruit him

The family said their daughter, the wife of suspected shooter Omar Mateen, does not understand "cause and effect."
She was been enrolled in special education classes at school and a teacher who knew Noor Salman said she had learning disabilities.

"Noor had difficulty with retention, she had difficulty with conceptualizing, understanding, all challenges to her," Salman's middle school teacher, referred to as Susan, told ABC News.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:36 pm**

Check the links at the Orlando Sentinel where you will find various reports from clubbers who saw the shooters face, one describes direct eye contact.
Of course while not mentioned, that doesn't exempt a mask, does it?
* plus, no one is going to mention a mask if there wasn't one, and no one has.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:43 pm**

and I'm sure the FBI did not know who his dad was

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:44 pm**

This thread should be locked as the matter has advanced 36 pages in the original.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:49 pm**

I'm sort of with Mac on this, even though I don't think it really matters.

I spent an hour or so last night looking into US involvement in Libya and Syria, and my extension the guilt of one Hillary R. Clinton. One thing that crept up over and over again was the media narrative about why we NEEDED to get involved. Mostly it was the rebels on the ground made up or exaggerated stories of abuse, went to the UN, and the UN + USA repeated those same stories as fact with no real evidence. In Libya there were supposed Gaddafi airstrikes against peaceful protesters, threats of genocide, and even viagra-induced mass rapes. It didn't matter that there was no evidence of any of these, it was the narrative that was created.

Here in Orlando we have much of the same media narrative-building. "Witnesses describe' etc, etc. People have come out saying they were Grindr friends with Omar, that the recognized him from many previous club visits. We have officials saying he converted to radical Islam and pledged loyalty (tapes redacted). I 100% believe that a crime was committed and that people were murdered. I have second-hand evidence of that fact through my cousin visiting her wounded friends in the hospital.

But I automatically suspect every news story is half fabricated or twisted in someway. To what aim, I don't know. It could be just to sell advertisement, to turn tragedy into tabloid.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:48 pm**

So that's a no, then, so far. Nothing but spluttering and handwaving and one outraged demand that the thread be closed. (Why such fear?)

No eyewitness has identified the shooter as Omar Mateen or even described the shooter even vaguely. And we still don't even know if the shooter was masked.

Still, early days yet. Something may yet turn up. Keep the faith, parishioners, if you absolutely must. But post the evidence too, if you can find any.

Thank you.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:10 pm**

Iamwhomiam wrote:This thread should be locked as the matter has advanced 36 pages in the original.

Such outrage and fear, ha. Why the fear! WHY! WHAT ARE YOU HIDING IAM!!!!???

MacCruiskeen can sense fear, you know. And handwaving - don't you come here with that shit.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:38 pm**

MacCruiskeen » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:48 pm wrote:So that's a no, then, so far. Nothing but spluttering and handwaving and one outraged demand that the thread be closed. (Why such fear?)

No eyewitness has identified the shooter as Omar Mateen or even described the shooter even vaguely. And we still don't even know if the shooter was masked. Still, early days yet. Something may yet turn up. Keep the faith, parishioners, if you absolutely must. But post the evidence too, if you can find any.
Thank you.

This guy saw the shooter walk in and start shooting people. I'd say he would of probably said the person was masked if he was so. As the identification of the shooter was said to be Mateen very quickly after the shooting, it would be pretty obvious if this eyewitness disagreed with that assessment when he was interviewed.

Orlando nightclub survivor: Mateen was 'shooting people like they were animals'
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pul ... story.html

Selvin Dubon was eager to see his two friends have a good time with him last weekend, so he encouraged everyone to go to the Pulse nightclub.
Dubon was having fun with Joel Rayon Paniagua and Juan Chavez Martinez, and the group was getting ready to leave at about 2 a.m. Sunday.
"We were dancing and they announced that in 15 minutes they were closing the club, so [Joel] decided to go to the bathroom. I told him, 'Don't take too long in the bathroom,' because we had to leave. That was the last time I ever saw him," Dubon said in Spanish while holding back tears as he recounted the opening moments of shooting spree that would claim the lives of 49 people.

"Juan stayed with me. That is when this guy came in and started shooting like a crazy person."
Dubon saw the shooter, Omar Mateen, but for a moment he wasn't sure it was real.
"I thought the guy was playing around, I thought it was a joke, but when I heard the people start screaming, we all dropped to the ground," Dubon said. "When the bartender screamed, the other people started screaming, 'Let's get out of here.'"

While hovering on the floor, Dubon urged Martinez to get up and try to escape with him.
"Juan did not want to get up. He was scared," Dubon said. "I told Juan, 'We need to get up and leave because this man is going to kill us.'
"Juan said, 'No, because if we get up he will shoot us.' I told him again, 'Let's go. This man is killing everyone.'"

Dubon said he did not see many people running from the club, but that's when he decided it was time to make his escape.
"I crawled toward the exit, which was about 30 feet, and then I stood up and I turned around and at that time the guy had two guns and was shooting at the people laying down on the floor and you could see the bodies [jerk up] as they were getting shot," Dubon said. "... And [Mateen] was laughing like a crazy person and he said, 'Today you are going to die, mother*******.'"

It took Dubon about eight seconds to get to the exit.
He said Mateen moved from the dance floor and through the VIP area near the patio, where he continued to shoot both guns at the same time, while Dubon headed the opposite direction. He also said he never saw anyone trying to take down the gunman.
"He was shooting people like they were animals," Dubon said.

Pulse nightclub shooting survivor went back inside
Dubon finally made his way out a back exit door and ended up on the north side of the club, but his friends were still inside.

"I called Juan on his cell phone to tell him to get out of there, 'He's going to kill you,' and he answered, '¿Donde estas?'" Dubon said of his friend Martinez, who asked in Spanish, 'Where are you?'
"That's all he said and after that there was no response [from Juan.] The [phone] line stayed open … that's when I think he killed him."

Dubon said he could still hear gun shots through Martinez's cell phone because the line was still active. With no response from Martinuez, Dubon then tried calling Paniagua several times, but there was no answer and he left him a voice message telling him to, 'Get out of there because the man is going to kill you.'"
At that point, Dubon thought of his children. The 30-year-old Honduras native who works in Haines City was relieved he would see his children — a 4-year-old girl and 2-year-old boy — again.

Days have passed, but all he can think about now is his friends.
He met Paniagua four years ago while working at a Ramada Inn.
Dubon met Martinez three years ago while working briefly with him at Reunion Resorts in Kissimmee, and the two had become great friends, often doing things together.
"Juan was like my brother," Dubon said.

Dubon has spoken with members of the families of Martinez, a 25-year-old housekeeping supervisor for APDC Services, and Paniagua, a 31-year-old construction worker, several times since.
Words will never provide comfort for their losses of the two men who grew up in Mexico.
"Juan's family calls me, Joel's family calls me," Dubon said, but he still never has the right words.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:44 pm**

It's a REALLY lame way to think and a paradox but perhaps the phone calls of those concerned gave their hiding spots away.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:54 pm**

I think that Iamwhomiam, like many others, would prefer the tiny insignificant side-issue of the shooter's actual identity to be buried in an already-marathon thread. For most of the US population It is already an article of faith, an unquestionable dogma, that Omar Mateen Dunnit.

But this board was not founded as a safe place for dogma, least of all for dogmas about mass murders conveniently and instantly attributed to Muslims in post-9/11 America. ON EDIT: Nor was it intended to be a place where the unsupported assertions of corporate journalists should be treated as gospel truth.

So please let's keep this thread clean and tidy and on-topic. The OP is a serious request for information that should be very easy to find. Surely (and I say this with growing incredulity, but completely without sarcasm) there must be someone among the hundreds of surviving eyewitnesses who can at least tell us whether the shooter was masked or not?

Please post a link if you can find such a person. That would be a great start.

Thank you.

on edit: typos

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:59 pm**

brekin quoting the Orlando Sentinel wrote:"Juan stayed with me. That is when this guy came in and started shooting like a crazy person."
Dubon saw the shooter, Omar Mateen, but for a moment he wasn't sure it was real.

Nope. For all your bolding and underlining, the witness doesn't describe the shooter at all, he doesn't say whether he was masked or not, and he most certainly does not identify him as Omar Mateen. (The only person who uses the words "Omar Mateen" is the hack who wrote the article.)

Onwards.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:06 pm**

MacCruiskeen » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:54 pm wrote:I think that Iamwhomiam, like many others, would prefer the tiny insignificant side-issue of the shooter's actual identity to be buried in an already-marathon thread. For most of the US population It is already an article of faith, an unquestionably dogma, that Omar Mateen Dunnit.

But this board was not founded as a safe place for dogma, least of all for dogmas about mass murders conveniently and instantly attributed to Muslims in post-9/11 America.

So please let's keep this thread clean and tidy and on-topic. The OP is a serious request for information that should be very easy to find. Surely (and I say this with growing incredulity, but completely without sarcasm) there must be someone among the hundreds of surviving eyewitnesses who can at least tell us whether the shooter was masked or not?
Please post a link if you can find such a person. That would be a great start.

Thank you.

Mac, look at the post above/below. Eyewitnesses aren't going to craft their responses to your unknown demands of identification beyond a reasonable doubt. I would like to know if the shooter was dressed in paramilitary-like gear, but people generally report what they see that is important to them and don't get granular on things that are assumed to be common knowledge in the public and in reports, such as the publicly stated identity of the shooter. You can deny the obvious if it isn't stated right out, and as you must know your opinion is a minority opinion and what is obvious to most is tentative and embattled for you. Only at Burger King are you going to get it your way, right away. (And in my research that isn't always true.)

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39829#p600892

"Juan stayed with me. That is when this guy came in and started shooting like a crazy person."
Dubon saw the shooter, Omar Mateen, but for a moment he wasn't sure it was real.
"I thought the guy was playing around, I thought it was a joke, but when I heard the people start screaming, we all dropped to the ground," Dubon said. "When the bartender screamed, the other people started screaming, 'Let's get out of here.'"

While hovering on the floor, Dubon urged Martinez to get up and try to escape with him.
"Juan did not want to get up. He was scared," Dubon said. "I told Juan, 'We need to get up and leave because this man is going to kill us.'
"Juan said, 'No, because if we get up he will shoot us.' I told him again, 'Let's go. This man is killing everyone.'"

Dubon said he did not see many people running from the club, but that's when he decided it was time to make his escape.
"I crawled toward the exit, which was about 30 feet, and then I stood up and I turned around and at that time the guy had two guns and was shooting at the people laying down on the floor and you could see the bodies [jerk up] as they were getting shot," Dubon said. "... And [Mateen] was laughing like a crazy person and he said, 'Today you are going to die, mother*******.'"

rigorousintuition.ca

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Re: The Church of Mateen Dunnit: A Challenge to the Faithful