The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rates

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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:08 am

Ben Franklin wrote about the nature and necessity of paper currency, and he was damn right. This Kenneth-ass Harvard poodle is telling us about himself, not America, when he blithely states "Cash is not used in ordinary retail transactions." There's a man who never spent a day in the private sector, yeah? What small business doesn't prefer cash money to losing slices on every card-enabled transaction?


I only use the credit card for online transactions, otherwise—on principle— it's cash all the way, and I always have more than $150 on hand. And judging from what I see around me, paying in cash is still extremely common (yes, even at wHOLE Foods). Funny, tonight I was at a store and a woman was paying entirely with several dozen $5 dollar bills!


Yes, whoever believes cash is unused, unwelcome or unneeded is living in a bubble. True that cards have taken over to some extent, but cash is king in my world. And if retailers ever decided to pass electronic transaction fees directly to the consumer rather than behind the scenes in pricing, there would be a massive drop in credit and debit transactions.

Has the author ever seen the checkout lines when the credit card machine goes down?
If you don't have cash, no soup for you.

Just one of many reasons this push to eliminate cash is a horrible idea.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby identity » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:11 am

The Intro to David Wolman's The End of Money: Counterfeiters, Preachers, Techies, Dreamers—and the Coming Cashless Society:

A few years ago, [...] I wrote an essay for Wired advocating
not merely for the end of small change, but an end to physical money,
period. And I didn’t hold back. “In an era when books, movies, music,
and newsprint are transmuting from atoms to bits, money remains irritatingly
analog,” I declared. “Physical currency is a bulky, germ-smeared,
carbon-intensive, expensive medium of exchange. Let’s dump it.”

Reader responses were . . . passionate. “Wolman is a fascist. . . . Taking
away cash would be like taking away our guns: One needs it most only
after it’s gone.” Another read: “My cash is my business.” I was accused of
shilling for secret lobbying groups, and of sacrificing “the last vestiges
of privacy” so that “those bastions of clarity and honesty called banks
and credit card companies can mine our every transaction.”
I had smacked a nerve. People are willing to kill for cash—we know
that. But what I was hearing made me think that people might kill to
keep it. That got me wondering: what is cash, anyway? The simple answer
is little metal discs and strips of paper bedecked with dead white
guys and cryptic messages that make Nicholas Cage go even more bugeyed.
But what is its place in our economy, our culture, and our minds?
Could we ever do without it? Should we?

Although predictions about the end of cash are as old as credit cards,
a number of developments are ganging up on paper and metal money
like never before: mistrust of national currencies, novel payment tools,
anxiety about government debt, the triumph of mobile phones, the rise
of virtual and alternative currencies, environmental concerns, and a
wave of evidence showing that physical money is most harmful to the
billions of people who have so little of it.

This book is about the twilight of money in its most commonly understood
form, and a search for the places, people, and ideas that provide
a glimpse of what comes next. The individuals you’ll meet within these
pages inhabit a vast spectrum of thinking about cash, its machinations,
and its role in our lives. They are oracles to some, eccentrics to others.
But all of them are visionaries merely for contemplating, and at times
reimagining, something so fundamental, so uncontested. They just
might convince you that a monetary revolution is afoot.
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby backtoiam » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:13 am

Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

Swedes are blazing a trail in Europe, with banks, buses, street vendors and even churches expecting plastic or virtual payment

The Swedish banknotes issued last year: circulation of the krona has fallen sharply as electronic payment takes over.

In 1661, Stockholms Banco, the precursor to the Swedish central bank, issued Europe’s first banknotes, on thick watermarked paper bearing the bank’s seal and eight handwritten signatures.

Last year – as Britain did last week – Sweden launched a new series of notes, cheery affairs featuring 20th-century Swedish cultural giants such as Astrid Lindgren, the creator of Pippi Longstocking, Greta Garbo and filmmaker Ingmar Bergman. But like its Nordic neighbours Norway, Denmark and Finland, Sweden is fast becoming an almost entirely cashless society.

“I don’t use cash any more, for anything,” said Louise Henriksson, 26, a teaching assistant. “You just don’t need it. Shops don’t want it; lots of banks don’t even have it. Even for a candy bar or a paper, you use a card or phone.”

Swedish buses have not taken cash for years, it is impossible to buy a ticket on the Stockholm metro with cash, retailers are legally entitled to refuse coins and notes, and street vendors – and even churches – increasingly prefer card or phone payments.

According to central bank the Riksbank, cash transactions made up barely 2% of the value of all payments made in Sweden last year – a figure some see dropping to 0.5% by 2020. In shops, cash is now used for barely 20% of transactions, half the number five years ago, and way below the global average of 75%.

And astonishingly, about 900 of Sweden’s 1,600 bank branches no longer keep cash on hand or take cash deposits – and many, especially in rural areas, no longer have ATMs. Circulation of Swedish krona has fallen from around 106bn in 2009 to 80bn last year.

“I think, in practice, Sweden will pretty much be a cashless society within about five years,” said Niklas Arvidsson, an associate professor specialising in payment systems innovation at Stockholm’s Royal Institute of Technology (KTH).

Image
A shopping mall in Stockholm. Cash is used for only about a fifth of all transactions in shops. Photograph: Frank Chmura/Alamy

Arvidsson argues that the country’s head start in the field began in the 1960s, when banks persuaded employers and workers to use digital bank transfers for wages as a matter of course, with credit and debit cards receiving a boost in the 1990s when Sweden’s banks started charging for cheques.

Cards are now the main form of payment: according to Visa, Swedes use them more than three times as often as the average European, making an average of 207 payments per card in 2015.

More recently, mobile phone apps have also taken off in spectacular fashion. Swish, a hugely popular app developed jointly with the major banks including Nordea, Handelsbanken, SEB, Danske Bank and Swedbank, uses phone numbers to allow anyone with a smartphone to transfer money from one bank account to another in real time.

“Swish has pretty much killed cash for most people, as far as person-to-person payments are concerned,” said Arvidsson. “It has the same features as a cash payment – real-time clearing, the same as handing over a banknote. And it’s now making inroads into payments to businesses, too.”

Adopted by nearly half the Swedish population, Swish is now used to make more than 9 million payments a month. (A similar Danish app, MobilePay, was used by over 3 million Danes – in a country of 5.6 million – to make some 90 million transactions last year.)

Street salesmen, from hotdog vendors to homeless magazine sellers, have enthusiastically adopted iZettle, a cheap and easy Swedish system designed to allow sole traders and small businesses take card payments via an app and mini card-reader plugged into their phones, with many reporting sales increases of up to 30%.

Even Swedish churches have adapted, displaying their phone numbers at the end of each service and asking parishioners to use Swish to drop their contribution into the virtual Sunday collection. One Stockholm church said last year only 15% of its donations were in cash; the remainder were all by phone.

There are, obviously, concerns: cases of electronic fraud have more than doubled in the past decade and several critics – including the inventor of iZettle, Jacob de Greer – have asked whether an entirely electronic system in which every single payment is recorded is not a threat to privacy.

Old people’s organisations also fear that those who prefer cash, out of a reluctance to use new technology or simply because they find it easier to keep track of their spending, will be disadvantaged, while educators worry that young people will be tempted to spend money they do not have.

For these and other social reasons, Arvidsson said, cash is not dead quite yet. “Even if, in the next few years, Swedes use almost no cash at all, going 100% cashless needs a political decision,” he said.“The idea of cash, even in Sweden, remains very strong.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ing-europe
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:42 am

Thanks identity, sounds like a book worth checking out even though I expect I will continue to disagree vehemently with its premise.

David Wilmon said:

“In an era when books, movies, music,
and newsprint are transmuting from atoms to bits, money remains irritatingly
analog,” I declared. “Physical currency is a bulky, germ-smeared,
carbon-intensive, expensive medium of exchange. Let’s dump it.”


"Irritatingly analog" ???

I don't even know where to start. Why should analog anything irritate anyone? The world is full of choices. Make your own and leave mine to me.

I suppose he thinks MP3s are the bees knees and would urge us to burn our LPs and CDs, because, Digital! :yay
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:59 am

mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:42 am wrote:Thanks identity, sounds like a book worth checking out even though I expect I will continue to disagree vehemently with its premise.

David Wilmon said:

“In an era when books, movies, music,
and newsprint are transmuting from atoms to bits, money remains irritatingly
analog,” I declared. “Physical currency is a bulky, germ-smeared,
carbon-intensive, expensive medium of exchange. Let’s dump it.”


"Irritatingly analog" ???

I don't even know where to start. Why should analog anything irritate anyone? The world is full of choices. Make your own and leave mine to me.

I suppose he thinks MP3s are the bees knees and would urge us to burn our LPs and CDs, because, Digital! :yay



On edit: I'm thinking of a movie about a dystopian future and a scene where the protagonist's "credits" have been cut off, but can't place it nor find it with searches. Maybe something from Fifth Element?
Using the term "credits" in association with "movie" leads to bad google results.

In its place, this:

Last edited by mentalgongfu2 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby identity » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:00 am

"Irritatingly analog" ???


Yeah, guess he's unaware of the primacy accorded to (analog) vinyl by a certain (hipster-elitist?) segment of the music-buying public.

I suppose he thinks MP3s are the bees knees and would urge us to burn our LPs and CDs, because, Digital!


Then again, I myself have for many years listened almost exclusively to lossless FLACs and 320k mp3s, and I don't think many of us here could tell the difference between those (digital) formats and LPs and (certainly) CDs.

sounds like a book worth checking out even though I expect I will continue to disagree vehemently with its premise


Oh, even if I quote from the book in this thread for information-sharing purposes, I still disagree vehemently with its premise as well!
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:15 am

Digital music offers an enormous convenience and with proper attention can retain a high sound quality (compression is the issue), but it's the emotional component of that phrase "irritatingly analog" that bugs me. I intuit a sense of superiority and a disdain for those 'analog heathens' who won't get with the program. Then again, I went for years without TV and the one currently in my residence is an old CRT style. I have a microwave but it's an Amana Radarange that was originally purchased in 1979 or 80 and is literally older than I am. It doesn't have any fancy functions but still works like a dream at sending microwaves into food particles. So I am admittedly a bit of a luddite, but when it comes to cash it has less to do with aesthetics or nostalgia than it does with functionality and control mechanisms.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby identity » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:37 am

^
Well, of course, the "analog is passé(/inferior)" line is itself irritating and absurd!

Then again, I went for years without TV


Still no idiot box on these premises (even though I am forced to pay $25/month for cable as part of a package deal the building has :( ). (No microwave either, and certainly no mobile device!)

(BTW, there is no [lossy] compression on lossless FLAC files [the full audio signal from the original CD is preserved], though they weigh in at around +- 1/2 the size in MBs of a CD; in my experience, 320k mp3s are indistinguishable from these as well, so FLACs absolutely—and 320k mp3s pretty much always—are equal in our listening experience to CDs.)
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:43 am

I need to get rid of the idiot box myself. It has its own addictive qualities, like the fact something's always on, even if it's shit, let alone commercials and the brain wave studies that have been done. I don't tend to use the microwave, but it's here, and I do admire the fact that it's still functional given the designed obsolesence and low quality components in tech these days. Haven't messed around with 320k mp3s and only slightly with FLAC, but I don't question your analysis on that point.

I would like to see some hard info on the alleged carbon intensity of currency vs digital pay options and any benefits it may have beyond convenience and the superior feeling it gives the author. Even if numbers were produced to show it enhances global warming or some such compared to mining for electronic component metals, I would need some serious convincing to avoid putting such claims in the same pile I place articles that propose getting rid of cows because their digestive process produces methane. Such appeals strike me not only as idiotic, but off the point, considering the comparable output of automobiles and industries. And beyond all that, it is the centralized control that is scary. Our monetary system as it is, with many flaws, already guides the society to an extent most of us barely comprehend. I oppose anything that seeks to strengthen that grip, even in the name of (ostensibly) cutting cash to the pushers of the worst illicit drugs like heroin. And that's even if I trusted it would accomplish such a goal rather than simply ensure the heroin profits go to a government-approved drug dealer.

Currencies like bitcoin suppose to offer a digital means of transaction free from the centralized control that worries me, but they are experiencing their own significant growing pains due to criminal organizations and/or governments.

There's something to be said for the physical, material world, even if dollar bills or euros are merely representations of value subject to all the manipulation it entails. Gold and silver standard have merit but by their nature put a limit on the amount of available wealth in a world that has adopted the mythology of never-ending growth.

No overarching point here, just some thoughts. This, i know: you can't eat bits and bytes for dinner, you wont get much nutrition from chomping on paper dollars, nor can you subsist on bullion unless you mean the kind used to make soup. The resources that we need to live are being degraded, and it won't matter what form the currency takes when they're diminished. But as it stands, I'd trust paper or coin as a more reliable means to buy sustenance if and when the system crashes and our digital debts become uncollectable. Wiser still may be holding physical commodities for direct trade. We can't all have backyard chickens, but the spice trade once ruled the world....
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:03 am

identity » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:58 pm wrote:
Ben Franklin wrote about the nature and necessity of paper currency, and he was damn right.


Not disagreeing with that at this point in time, but what were the alternatives when Ben was around? "Sure, I'll trade you a dozen turkeys for your alchemical treatise!"


Credit has been with us a lot longer than American flags, I dunno.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:12 pm

Definite move to a cashless society in the UK. London buses are totally non-cash. I use my Visa debit card for contactless payment. There is a very big adoption of this tech - loads of people are now using smartphones with eg Android Pay for shopping at major supermarkets and the Tube for example.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:45 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:21 pm wrote:
Harvey » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:04 pm wrote:How will the deep state continue to fund itself, on a rainy day when it's investments tank, without cash? How much black market product can fund their activities without cash? Zero.

Perhaps they're not as smart as they think they are, if your thesis is correct.


A good chuckle and a great point.

I'm impressed Rogoff is minting policy prescriptions after his multiple academic embarrassments over the past decade; what a fop.

Ben Franklin wrote about the nature and necessity of paper currency, and he was damn right. This Kenneth-ass Harvard poodle is telling us about himself, not America, when he blithely states "Cash is not used in ordinary retail transactions." There's a man who never spent a day in the private sector, yeah? What small business doesn't prefer cash money to losing slices on every card-enabled transaction?

More ominously, who the fuck walks around with less than $100 cash at all times? Is that just a Vermont thing? There are hundreds of business transactions here in my home state where you cannot use a debit or credit card, period. Most of them are perfectly legal, too. What a Whole Foods, Gold Card bubble to plan the economy of the United States of America from.

Also love the logic of "If the government could make more tax income, it would lower taxes." You'd think Economics would at least occasionally involve extrapolating trends from historical data.


All this, sure. And not just deep state activity, but the fact that the $100 bill is a primary currency over vast zones of the world -- old fashioned dollar imperialism. That's soft power, even if it is also true (hello!) that 90x% of money is already in electronic form.

Then again, this is just one of our local funnels of dodgy bullshit acting out with a copy-paste from the fundamentalist Christian news outlet, CNSNews. Which is trying to lend significance to the long-lost Rogoff's pathetic stunt to grab attention. (Terror! Terror! Stop the Terror!)

Negative interest rates could be imposed under the present or any other centralized system. Cashlessness is not a requirement.

Rogoff may be trying to piggyback on a genuinely interesting development:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21495&start=1455#p611740

An automated currency system that makes banks superfluous would not need to be cashless, of course. Two altogether different things.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby backtoiam » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:55 pm

Jack, regardless of who published the quotes they are still the quotes of Rogoff. Rogoff's attitude toward cash money is pretty much in lockstep with the elite banking status quo as well. I don't kick articles to the curb with good quotes for fear of offending your narrow ideological razor's edge.
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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:00 pm

backtoiam » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:55 pm wrote:Jack, regardless of who published the quotes they are still the quotes of Rogoff. Rogoff's attitude toward cash money is pretty much in lockstep with the elite banking status quo as well. I don't kick articles to the curb with good quotes for fear of offending your narrow ideological razor's edge.


And you know what the "elite banking status quo" is thinking, how? Because Rogoff (ooh! Harvard) is just a courtier long on the outs, mouthing off. And I will identify CNSNews for what it is. I didn't say they misquoted him, I said it's their problem if they think it's important. Or are you trying to censor me from mentioning facts?! Ow, ow, free speech! Just asking questions! Halp!
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: The War On Cash/Financial Privacy-Negative Interest Rate

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:15 pm

Here another current sample of CNS just reporting what people said:

Rev. Peterson: Black Lives Matter Is 'Evil, They're Wicked ... Worse Than The KKK'

I like this one too:

What Would Have Happened If Kaepernick Had Prayed Instead of Protested?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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