US Government rules on Gender Identity

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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby dada » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:12 am

Jerky wrote:As for Martine Rothblatt, she's a legitimate genius innovator and a self-made success who played a significant role not only in the development of satellite radio, but also in the life-saving technology of OnStar, and she also helped shepherd the Human Genome Project into a more complete and accurate form than it would have been without her input. So she has some weird ideas about the life, the universe, and everything. Guess what? All the most interesting people do! I see no need to attack her on a personal level. She seems an altogether admirable individual, deserving the respect of being referred to by the gender she has chosen to live her life as for the past QUARTER FUCKING CENTURY. Does that not seem reasonable to most of you, as well? She's a she. Deal with it.


Hey, old pal!

Some questions for ya:

She's a she, sure, whatever. But if a woman wants to maintain a distinction between the 'she' that she is, and the 'she' that Martine is, can we respect that, deal with it, at the same time, as well? Life is messy.

Does Martine's tech resume earn her more respect? (Personally, I think there's a difference between liking someone, admiring someone, and respecting someone. I've liked and admired many, yet there are very few I respect. And I think everyone is equally deserving of my disrespect!)
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:44 pm

dada » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:12 am wrote:
She's a she, sure, whatever. But if a woman wants to maintain a distinction between the 'she' that she is, and the 'she' that Martine is, can we respect that, deal with it, at the same time, as well? Life is messy.


Yes. And the first woman in your example does not have to be a tech "innovator," genius, rescuer of children trapped in a cave, rich person, veteran of imperialist massacres or any other thing other than a woman to lay that claim.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby liminalOyster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Heaven Swan wrote:Everything is handed to trans, they dont’t have to fight for anything so they pass their time harassing lesbians, who they are obsessed with.


This is a generalized and not strongly empirically supported inflammatory negative aspersion against a group of people based on a shared identity trait.

It's base discrimination of the most familiar kind - taking a small sampling of a group (trans people who apparently harass lesbians) and ascribing that behaviour to the whole group. Please don't do this here - trans people like all people, even when absent from the convo, deserve a base individual expectation of kindness, respect and non-discrimination.

I don't think this kind of speaking is the same thing as speaking critically about issues from whatever vantage. It does not naturally follow from holding a critical opinion of trans discourses. I don't think anyone here would ever oppose someone respectfully making a critical argument. But this kind of stuff is just discriminatory. Why does it have to keep being repeated here that trans people face disproportionate social discrimination, violence, premature death etc? That's true. It's as close to a "fact" as one can get. And it remains true, even if you think they're assholes, not real women, men in dresses, brought it on themselves, etc.

Given that level of discriminatory vulnerability, it, for me at least, really raises the stakes of discriminating against them as by making people feel more alienated, they may be at even greater risk. Should I ever be in a situation where the tables are turned and women who disagree with tenets of trans culture and ideology are being harassed or discriminated against, I promise to similarly do my best to call them out.

ps. That Moog-fest piece fails to mention something obvious - that Wendy Carlos, early Moog innovator, was a very famous trans person. Check out her lawsuit against Momus in 1998. Good song and good read.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Elvis » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:40 pm

Heaven Swan wrote:Everything is handed to trans, they dont’t have to fight for anything so they pass their time harassing lesbians


I agree with liminal Oyster that this is a discriminatory and rather infammatory remark. Keep in mind that the RI embrace includes any number trans members (some declared, some not), and the trans people I know would take certainly offense at the idea that they "don’t have to fight for anything" and "pass their time harassing lesbians."

Substitute another minority and the objection becomes clear: "Everything is handed to blacks, they don’t have to fight for anything so they pass their time harassing white folks."

Or, "Everything is handed to lesbians, they don’t have to fight for anything so they pass their time harassing transexuals."

It goes nowhere fast, so let's avoid stereotypes—which are bound to inhibit the dialectical communication we all seek.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:19 am

Substitute another minority and the objection becomes clear: "Everything is handed to blacks, they don’t have to fight for anything so they pass their time harassing white folks."


Conversely, I think if a mass movement appeared of white people putting on blackface makeup and claiming to be literally black, based on their "feelings," and therefore also entitled to affirmative action, scholarships, and to lead the Black Pride parade and to get their own recognition among the black community because they are the mostest oppressed, and in fact threatening violence and throwing demeaning slurs to tar & feather any black person who didn't comply with this new ideology, then maybe others here would understand where HS is coming from.

But if it's more evidence needed that the most vocal and visible transactivists are deeply homophobic towards lesbians, this here unrolled Twitter thread might serve those less familiar with the rhetoric in these entrenched communities:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1018 ... 70528.html
Last edited by Agent Orange Cooper on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:12 am

Gender is not a spectrum

The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling

What is gender? This is a question that cuts to the very heart of feminist theory and practice, and is pivotal to current debates in social justice activism about class, identity and privilege. In everyday conversation, the word ‘gender’ is a synonym for what would more accurately be referred to as ‘sex’. Perhaps due to a vague squeamishness about uttering a word that also describes sexual intercourse, the word ‘gender’ is now euphemistically used to refer to the biological fact of whether a person is female or male, saving us all the mild embarrassment of having to invoke, however indirectly, the bodily organs and processes that this bifurcation entails.

The word ‘gender’ originally had a purely grammatical meaning in languages that classify their nouns as masculine, feminine or neuter. But since at least the 1960s, the word has taken on another meaning, allowing us to make a distinction between sex and gender. For feminists, this distinction has been important, because it enables us to acknowledge that some of the differences between women and men are traceable to biology, while others have their roots in environment, culture, upbringing and education – what feminists call ‘gendered socialisation’.

At least, that is the role that the word gender traditionally performed in feminist theory. It used to be a basic, fundamental feminist idea that while sex referred to what is biological, and so perhaps in some sense ‘natural’, gender referred to what is socially constructed. On this view, which for simplicity we can call the radical feminist view, gender refers to the externally imposed set of norms that prescribe and proscribe desirable behaviour to individuals in accordance with morally arbitrary characteristics.

....cont'd

https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby 82_28 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:04 am

That is a really good point, Agent Orange Cooper. I totally struggle with this issue and cannot compensate for the issues of those I know well. For instance, a close family member is male but is doing all he can to turn into a female. I am the only one he confides in and also the only one (I guess) who accepts him enough where he can confide in me. He has begun taking drugs, hormones or something he gets off the Internet. You can believe me, I have tried to "steer" him into something more "pragmatic". It literally comes down to being reduced to saying well, no matter what you do from here on out, it's gonna be weird. I got your back, but. . .

I really don't know what to say about any of this because I totally understand his struggles as he grew up. Well, don't understand. I wasn't him. But I am there, I guess for fucking everybody. That sounded way wrong, but I had to leave the flourish of "fucking" in there. I think you all know what I meant.

But yeah, blackface/trans I think is a very good existential comparison -- to a degree. Definitely worth the consideration of the human condition.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Personality is a spectrum, one's inner life and outward desires regardless of binary labels applied are a spectrum or a collage, and I wish these could be freed from gender proscriptions - sort of the original feminist demand.

What feminism means to me:

Equal rights for all.

Freedom from gender roles.

Acknowledgment and equal respect for the reproductive sphere of labor.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby liminalOyster » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:07 pm

JackRiddler » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:33 pm wrote:Personality is a spectrum, one's inner life and outward desires regardless of binary labels applied are a spectrum or a collage, and I wish these could be freed from gender proscriptions - sort of the original feminist demand.

What feminism means to me:

Equal rights for all.

Freedom from gender roles.

Acknowledgment and equal respect for the reproductive sphere of labor.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.


What feminism means to me:

All human (at bar minimum) relationships must be consensual, full stop

Life is more valuable than anything else. Yet in the place of just valuing life, society (men) wanted to control the means of its production.

The violent oppression of women based on reproductive capacity should always be recognized as the probable first mover in all subsequent forms of oppression including racism and homophobia but most of all capitalism, investment and violent acquisition of the means of social reproduction

Gender is secondary probably but has largely played the part of the regulatory/law enforcement structure of that relationship.

Rather than either sex or gender being the primary thing now, it's more like both/and.

So-called original sin belongs to the masculine, not the feminine.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:02 pm

"So-called original sin belongs to the masculine, not the feminine."

Hey! Let's not guilt trip guys with that one, either. Put the blame for original sin where it most deservedly belongs, with its creator, our androgenous God. You just can't write a plot, set the scence and cast the characters and then claim no responsiblity for the outcome, after all.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby liminalOyster » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:14 pm

"The masculine" <> Men, though.
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:48 pm

Oh, ok. But they're mentally ill, no?
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:53 pm

From New Zealand....


Women’s gym receives unwelcome visit from “Dick Surprise”

https://reneejg.net/2018/06/14/dick-surprise-1/
Date: June 14, 2018Author: reneejg 10 Comments

Image

A Wellington women’s gym has received a sign-up request from an unexpected source.

Dick Surprise, who identifies as a non-binary pansexual Wellingtonian, sports male genitalia but claims to be a “woman inside”.

“I walk past this gym all the time,” Surprise told reporters. “And it really bugs me. Sure, men may control and dominate almost every aspect of social life from the military, to politics, law, business, finance, media, academia, most households and sports in general – and at women’s expense. Okay, I get it. I already know that, because I am a feminist, actually probably the biggest feminist you could ever meet.” In his own estimation, Surprise is one of the country’s most prominent and underrecognised feminists, alongside Gavin Hubbard, who has won gold representing New Zealand in women’s weightlifting.

“But it is 2018. After thousands of years of patriarchy, people who were assigned male at birth just for having a penis still do not even have access to most women-only gyms, safehouses, toilets, or lesbian dating pools. That’s crazy. How have we let this happen?”

“And this business has the gym, and changing rooms and toilets. And showers,” Surprise points out. “There are probably lesbians in there! Imagine – at any given moment, there might be a number of women using this selection of facilities, not one sporting a penis. Not one. How can that be okay? That is exclusionary and gross. It is bigoted, essentialist, and basically fascist and genocidal. It makes me think of Queen Victoria, Milo Yiannopoulos and Stalin all combined – if they were all part of Destiny’s Church. As I said, I am a feminist, so I want to smash the patriarchy as much as the next person. But only feminazis would defend the idea of a penis free space! In 2018!”

The gym appears to remain undecided about Surprise’s request for membership.

“They told me that I could sign up as a member,” Surprise admits, “But I wasn’t sure if that was actually a sly pun. Then, when I asked to see the facilities first, which should be my right before I sign up, the receptionist actually had the gall to ask me why I sprung this issue on her out of the blue!” Surprise says that this kind of questioning is inherently pathologising. “Why did she question my demands?”

“I am not an “issue”, I am a human being with human rights. Treating me like an “issue” is pathologising hate speech that denies my humanity, invalidates my identity and fosters literal violence.”

“She basically told me straight up that I was making her uncomfortable for coming in without warning. But it’s not my fault I am Dick Surprise. I was assigned Dick Surprise at birth. Anyway at that point I just left to call back up,” Surprise says. “There are plenty of professional diversity consultants, journalists and people with law degrees nowadays who are paid handsomely to educate women about what a woman is and how women should do their jobs. I don’t get paid for it. And I am quite tired.”

Suprise may be rethinking his request. “I have to admit that some days I just think females in general are really overrated. And I wonder why I fight to be part of women’s spaces knowing that I make plenty of them feel intimidated. I mean sure, a lot of them might be coming from a place of trauma, for instance because of past assault. One in three and all that – bless. But a frightening proportion of them are ignorant prudes with no fashion sense and the bloodlust of Henry Kissinger who should all be no-platformed immediately. It is 2018!”
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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby Heaven Swan » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:39 am

Reddit Post

Finally let myself be completely naked in the women's locker room, and it was so incredibly liberating.

So, I've been super open about my transition – I am openly trans at work, I talk about being trans with strangers, and I share a lot online – but the women's locker room has been the one place where I have hidden my identity, that is, until today.

I spend a lot of time at the gym – I'm there every day – but I have always either gone back to my apartment to shower or wrapped myself in a towel and changed quickly in the corner.

It is so not like me to behave this way; I love my body and I am very comfortable with it, and while countless girls walk around the locker room naked, I felt like I couldn't, even though I wanted to, because I have a penis.

Well, today, I finally said, "fuck it," took off my clothes after my workout, and walked naked to the showers. After I was done, I got ready in front of the mirror naked as well. I definitely received a couple of disapproving looks, but no one said anything.

It was so incredible to not feel ashamed of my body and just go about my business as I normally would at home.

I live in Manhattan and work out at a gym in Soho, so I figured that this is as safe a place as any to push the envelope. I'm not sure how this will play out, but I am tired of behaving like I don't deserve to be comfortable in the locker room that I pay for just like everyone else.

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Re: US Government rules on Gender Identity

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:59 pm

A brilliant recent blogpost by the English philosopher Jane Clare Jones. It is, first and foremost, a razor-sharp and wonderfully clarifying analysis of the meanings and (mis-) uses of the term identity, but her tone turns unashamedly polemical and righteously fucking angry towards the end. And no wonder.

IDENTITY, SOVEREIGNTY AND NARCISSISM
Part 1: Identity and Recognition

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/10/12/i ... arcissism/


Do read the three footnotes too.
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