The Coming War on China

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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby dada » Sat May 02, 2020 7:32 pm

Wouldn't a master narrative presuppose a master storyteller?

The anthill happens when ants dig tunnels and pile up what they've excavated at the entrance. The hill form is a shape that a pile of dirt or sand takes naturally.

The principle is always a symbolification. We could say a horse hair in the water turns into a snake, a piece of straw in wet earth turns into a scorpion's tail. The horse hair doesn't literally turn into a snake, in water the hair takes the snakelike sine wave shape. When the sun warms the wet earth, the piece of straw curls up in the shape of a scorpion's tail.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby JackRiddler » Sat May 02, 2020 8:41 pm

dada » Sat May 02, 2020 6:32 pm wrote:Wouldn't a master narrative presuppose a master storyteller?


Nope. A group consensus or an easily apprehended logic can serve this function.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby dada » Sat May 02, 2020 10:57 pm

A group consensus would give us a group consensus narrative, and an easily apprehended logic, an easily apprehended logical narrative. A master storyteller, a master narrative.

And of course U.S.-centric narratives come from the U.S., the entertainment capital of the world.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby SonicG » Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 am

Jack, I was going to put a source caveat for that NYer piece for sure - it was just a for-instance, and there are other examples. I was looking for something with more about Kushner and Kissinger but just grabbed that one...The levels of Chinese influence is a murky world to enter, but I don't think one could argue against the fact that Trump and Kushner, who seems to be the person responsible for half of WH policy, act by thinking first of their own business interests and that of their cronies, or that there has been a large amount of interest by Chinese persons to get into Mar du Lagoon.
A lot more depends on what happens with the interconnections between the US and China as the economic crisis sets in. Even if, inshallah, the US flattens the current curve as rapidly as possible and there is no second wave, the US is going to be a mess for quite a while, and China would be smart to continue to search for alternative as fast as possible, especially with the added threats of the US.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby JackRiddler » Sun May 03, 2020 2:13 pm

Oh, all that, SonicG, agreed, also applies, including

I don't think one could argue against the fact that Trump and Kushner, who seems to be the person responsible for half of WH policy, act by thinking first of their own business interests and that of their cronies, or that there has been a large amount of interest by Chinese persons to get into Mar du Lagoon.


So I didn't mean to make light of that. Just contextualizing it within two current turns: East Asia as the general enemy again, and, within what's called the "liberal" media bubble (i.e., Cold War, Multilateralist-Atlanticist, Institutionalist, Yankee Finance, neoliberal) the tale of Russian political control over Trump seems to be morphing into one of China in charge. (Now that I made that list, the current Trump-GOP analogue might read something like racialized imperialist, aggressive unilateralist, Anti-institutional rule of the strong, plunder capitalism, neoliberal.)
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun May 03, 2020 4:41 pm

I wonder how useful it might be to begin a Jared Kushner for President campaign. He'd disappear from the white house pretty damned fast, I'd imagine. Trump being as paranoid as he is.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby dada » Sun May 03, 2020 6:41 pm

So the word around the media bubble that China is in charge of Donald, is presidential politics in the U.S.? Like, the Chinese vampire is hopping toward America, and Donald left the door unlocked. So vote Democrat.

Because a Democrat will take serious action against China, no more show of economic warfare. I guess they've seen the studies and models on what effect it would have on the world's markets. If it would have any effect, I don't know.

Maybe it will be a true hawk, one that will put an end to the mexican standoff in the South China Sea, fallout be damned.

If the media bubble were suggesting that, it might have the opposite effect on some American voters. Because it would imply that Donald is the only thing standing in the way of nuclear war.

Which side is this media bubble on, anyway? I haven't been keeping up at all, way out of the loop.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby SonicG » Sun May 03, 2020 9:45 pm

JackRiddler » Mon May 04, 2020 1:13 am wrote:Oh, all that, SonicG, agreed, also applies, including

I don't think one could argue against the fact that Trump and Kushner, who seems to be the person responsible for half of WH policy, act by thinking first of their own business interests and that of their cronies, or that there has been a large amount of interest by Chinese persons to get into Mar du Lagoon.


So I didn't mean to make light of that. Just contextualizing it within two current turns: East Asia as the general enemy again, and, within what's called the "liberal" media bubble (i.e., Cold War, Multilateralist-Atlanticist, Institutionalist, Yankee Finance, neoliberal) the tale of Russian political control over Trump seems to be morphing into one of China in charge. (Now that I made that list, the current Trump-GOP analogue might read something like racialized imperialist, aggressive unilateralist, Anti-institutional rule of the strong, plunder capitalism, neoliberal.)


Maybe not so much China is "in charge" but rather they have "sneakily" inserted themselves...Drumpf is going to dither about "what to do about China" as the US Corona stats continue to rise, probably only resulting in more "tariffs". All sides and countries are seeking distractions, and even Europe is making punish-China noises also, but as you mentioned tectonic plates are shifting and the US has definitely lost any world leader mandate, so with China already ramping their economy back up, there will be many countries seeking to forgive and forget just to get some economic activity going.

an end to the mexican standoff in the South China Sea, fallout be damned.

I live in the region, so am a bit concerned about potential "fallout"...Upping confrontation in the SCS needs a long-term strategy goal. Set down concrete limits and then try to police them? Declare Hong Kong and Taiwan as sovereign? Stoke a colored rebellion across China? These are massive moves that the US is unprepared and unable to make I think.

Moon of Alabama has a good overview of it, as always with all kinds of opinions and links in the comments there:

Blaming China Will Not Restore U.S. Standing
The Trump administration seeks to blame 'someone' for its messed up response to the Covid-19 pandemic. After first lauding China for its fight against the epidemic it started to bash it. A phonecall between Xi and Trump shut that down for a while. It was then the WHO which was blamed. After the Trump administration de-funded it there was little left to do. So it is now back to China.
...
In private, Trump and aides have discussed stripping China of its “sovereign immunity,” aiming to enable the U.S. government or victims to sue China for damages. George Sorial, who formerly served as a top executive at the Trump Organization and is involved in a class-action lawsuit against China, told The Washington Post he and senior White House officials have discussed limiting China’s sovereign immunity. Legal experts say an attempt to limit China’s sovereign immunity would be extremely difficult to accomplish and may require congressional legislation.

Some administration officials have also discussed having the United States cancel part of its debt obligations to China, two people with knowledge of internal conversations said. It was not known if the president has backed this idea.


Both ideas are as nuts as Joe Biden's anti-China antics. If the U.S. denies 'sovereign immunity' to China dozens of countries will use the precedence to do the same with regards to the U.S. In December 1944 during the firebombing of Wuhan the U.S. killed more than 40.000 Chinese people. How will it pay for that? Should the rest of the world sue the U.S. for the up to 575,000 global death and the economic damage the H1N1 swine flu pandemic caused since 2009? That pandemic was was first detected in southern California. No U.S. financial asset in China or elsewhere would be safe from being confiscated to compensate for that and other damage U.S. neglect and wars have caused.

...
Meanwhile the Chinese news agency Xinhua published an funny animation video that empathizes and mocks the contradictions of U.S. statements about the pandemic. Every warning that China had offered from early on was originally rejected by the Trump administration:

China: We discovered a new virus.
America: So what?
China: It's Dangerous
America: It's only a Flu

China: Wear a Mask
America: Don't wear a Mask
...

An economic conflict or even a physical war against China (and its ally Russia) is one the U.S. can not win. The U.S. must stop blaming China for exposing the fraud of 'American exceptionalism'. The U.S. has done that itself. It is not even Trump who is guilty of it as the relative decline of U.S. statesmanship and capabilities has developed over decades and independent of party policy preferences.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/05/b ... l#comments
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby JackRiddler » Sun May 03, 2020 9:51 pm

(dada) The media bubble as a whole has turned to blaming China.

Trump and the right were in the lead. Democrats and "liberal" media (the kind described) tried doubling down, saying they were even harder on China than Trump, and insinuating Chinese control of Trump (using familiar arguments lifted from the Russiagate playbook, how some Chinese money flows his way and so it must be that he's in hock to them because why wouldn't they do that, those crafty Chineses?).

(general)

The Russiagate slayer himself, Aaron Mate, has taken it on. I find this very persuasive on politics and context, but can't say anything for sure regarding the possible artificial provenance of the virus. It need not be. And it can't be an intentional Chinese operation, because then it wouldn't be breaking out in Wuhan near the lab, would it now? But it's also a dubious story as an accident to be blamed on "the Chinese Communist Party" or Chinese irresponsibility (as Falun Gong, GOP, and the hardliner-wannabes among the Democrats are now doing), just because of all these American and Western researchers also worked there.

Anyway, this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SYl927vuWM

And here's Xinhua learning how to do the RT counterpropaganda thing. They're very good at it, whatever you think.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-01/ ... s/12204836


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BZ09iNdvo

Transcript of Grayzone episode.
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/25/us-e ... hostility/

TRANSCRIPT
AARON MATÉ: Welcome to Pushback. I’m Aaron Maté. My guest is Ajit Singh. He is a lawyer and journalist who writes about China extensively, including for TheGrayzone.com. Ajit Singh, welcome to Pushback.

AJIT SINGH: Thank you for having me.

AARON MATÉ: So tensions now are high between the US and China, and a lot of allegations being hurled in China’s direction, including accusing China of covering up the outbreak of the coronavirus, of misleading the WHO of the virus itself possibly being started not via animal-to-human transmission but in fact inside a Chinese lab.

SENATOR TOM COTTON: Brett Baier’s reporting tonight, if it bears out, shows that the Chinese Communist Party is responsible for every single death, every job lost, every retirement nest egg lost from this coronavirus, and Xi Jinping and his Chinese communist apparatchiks must be made to pay the price.

AARON MATÉ: That was an allegation spread across the political spectrum, including by President Trump.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We’re looking at it. A lot of people are looking at it. It seems to make sense. They talk about a certain kind of bat, but that bat wasn’t in that area. So, a lot of strange things are happening, but there is a lot of investigation going on and we’re gonna find out.

AARON MATÉ: Chinese agents spreading disinformation, a lot of this stuff going on. But before we get into the specific allegations, I’m curious, your overall thoughts right now on the climate of hostility and antagonism towards China that we’re seeing right now.

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, I think there’s been a noticeable escalation in anti-China hostility from the US government establishment and corporate media in the past month or month-and-a-half. At the beginning of the coronavirus outbreak, when the epicenter was in Wuhan, China, much of the vast majority of the presentation that we received was that China was reacting in an authoritarian or draconian fashion when it was implementing its lockdown measures in Wuhan and Hubei Province. As the United States has had to deal with this virus on its own shores and has struggled to contain it in large part due to inadequate responses by the United States government and other levels of government, federal and state, this narrative has shifted from initially China was behaving in a draconian, over-the-top measure manner to now, China didn’t do enough and that China was nefariously or maliciously covering up the coronavirus outbreak and is responsible for the troubles that the United States and other countries of the world are facing.

This isn’t just an accident; it appears to be a coordinated campaign by the US government being aided by a very pliant corporate media. We know this from a March 21st report in The Daily Beast, which had obtained a US government cable outlining the White House’s strategy to launch a PR campaign as the United States was emerging as the world’s worst coronavirus outbreak, to shift blame from the US government and onto China, specifically seeking to accuse the Chinese government of orchestrating a cover-up and of creating the global pandemic. Since this time, we’ve seen an intense escalation by the US government and the media, which was already hostile in rhetoric and accusations against China. These can largely be grouped into a couple of narratives that we’ve seen. We’ve heard that China is hiding 40,000 or 50,000 additional coronavirus deaths from the official death tolls, that the World Health Organization is a Chinese puppet that’s controlled by the Chinese government, and most recently we’ve seen the revival of a fringe conspiracy theory by more mainstream outlets that the coronavirus was engineered in a Chinese lab, either deliberately as part of a bio warfare program or through an accidental lab leak due to reckless research and unsafe protocols.

And I think we’re seeing both parties of the US establishment coalesce around this anti-China narrative and seeking to sort of one-up the other and present themselves as the most ardently anti-China political force in the United States. And this is a very dangerous situation, not just internationally because of the risks that it poses between the world’s two strongest global powers in terms of aggressive confrontation, but also it has a lot of domestic consequences in terms of emboldening both parties and the political establishment to avoid or blunt the genuine deserved outrage of ordinary Americans against the systemic failure of US capitalism and of their administration. It allows them to blunt this and try to shift them on to a foreign boogeyman in a way that’s very similar to the Russiagate narrative that’s been deployed since the 2016 election of President Donald Trump.

AARON MATÉ: So, let me put to you some of the key claims that are reduced to pin the blame on China for and accuse it and the WHO of misleading the world about the coronavirus crisis, and then we’ll get into some of the other examples you mentioned. So, there’s a very famous tweet from the WHO from January 14th and it says this: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus identified in Wuhan, China.” So, you see this tweet, Ajit, being produced a lot as a way to accuse China and the WHO of lying in claiming that there was no human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus. How do you take that allegation?

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, it’s gotten a lot of attention, particularly by the right-wing, but also a lot of centrists and liberals, to suggest that, yes, China and the WHO were either colluding to mislead the world about the severity of the coronavirus outbreak or that China was duping the WHO. I think if we focus on the balance of the evidence as opposed to the wording of a single tweet, it’s pretty clear that this narrative is false.

First the tweet, in fact, is referring to the January 14th press briefing by the WHO, during which they didn’t say that there was no human-to-human transmission but stated that there was…the evidence thus far indicated limited human-to-human transmission. It’s important to note, at this time, coronavirus wasn’t a worldwide pandemic; it was a mysterious illness that of which there were only 41 cases. Still at this time they issued a guidance to hospitals worldwide to be prepared for infection control and a possible quote “super spreading event.”

AARON MATÉ: Let me just read…let me read to you quickly because that tweet gets a lot of attention. But that word you mentioned that they said, that there was actually “limited” human-to-human transmission, it was even reported at the time. So the same date, January 14th, from Reuters, and it says this, quote: “There has been ‘limited’ human-to-human transmission of a new coronavirus that has struck in China, mainly small clusters in families, but there is potential for wider spread, the WHO said on Tuesday.” So, it’s just an interesting case where you have one badly-worded tweet that gets a lot of attention, but contemporaneous accounts from the time of that very same WHO press conference, like this one from Reuters, get no attention.

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, I think it’s also important to note that the terminology “human-to-human transmission” has…and “limited human-to-human transmission” refers not only to the extent of the spread but also to the severity and the degree to which the pathogen is infectious. So, “limited human-to-human transmission” doesn’t mean that a virus or pathogen is not dangerous; it’s a designation which has been applied to very dangerous pathogens such as bird flu viruses, MERS—Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome—which have been categorized under limited human-to-human transmission, so that in and of itself isn’t an inherent downplaying. We see that very serious illnesses have been given the scientific designation, and the reason it’s given this is because it refers to the degree to which it is infectious. And at that time, it’s important to note that these limited amount of cases, the vast majority of them, were traced back to a wet market in Wuhan, and so it wasn’t clear to the extent to which this is rapidly transmitting between people or to which all of these people have a link to this one source. The designation “limited human-to-human transmission” is understood in contrast to what coronavirus was eventually designated, as being sustained human-to-human transmission, which refers to it being easily transmitted from one person to the next and onward in the way that the flu works.

And it’s important to note that less than a week later the WHO announced that there was evidence of sustained human-to-human transmission. So, in this narrative in which we’re supposed to believe that China and the WHO are trying to mislead the world—presumably for good PR or whatnot, less than a week later they’ve given themselves, what, six days of good PR?—to then switch to calling sustained human-to-human transmission, and then three days later, on January 23rd the Chinese government implements a systemic lockdown in Wuhan and other cities in Hubei Province, which led to immediately being criticized by the Western press. And, so, this whole narrative of misleading…it’s hard to see what they were misleading for. The evidence, in my view, much more strongly indicates that as evidence of this mysterious unknown…previously unknown virus was emerging, the assessments of the WHO and Chinese authorities were evolving, rather than some sort of conspiracy to mislead the world.

AARON MATÉ: And here’s one more thing that gets missed that I think is very important, which is that, according even to Secretary Azar, the US government was informed by Chinese colleagues, not in February or late January about the coronavirus, but in fact on January 3rd. Azar said this at a White House press briefing back in March.

ALEX AZAR, Secretary of Health and Human Services: So, we were alerted by some discussions that Dr. Redfield, the director of the CDC, had with Chinese colleagues on January 3rd. It’s since been known that there may have been cases in December; not that we were alerted in December.

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, in addition to this there’s a New York Times article which states that the head of the US CDC was informed directly by the Chinese CDC on January 1st, and according of The New York Times the Chinese head of CDC was in tears during this conversation. In addition, The Washington Post reported this week that from the outset there have been over a dozen officials…US government officials embedded at the WHO that have been giving real-time updates to the Trump administration. So, I think the whole narrative that Trump or the United States was not in the know, or was blindsided by the Chinese and WHO, has no merit in terms of evidence.

AARON MATÉ: Right, I think it’s a very good point. When people talk about the WHO covering something up or accusing them of that, they’re forgetting that there are officials from all these member states, including the US and other Western allies inside the WHO, which would mean that if there were a cover-up, that would have to mean that these Western officials who are right there at the WHO are complicit in it.

AJIT SINGH: And the United States’ own government officials.

AARON MATÉ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay let’s take this to this theory that has gotten a lot of attention as of late. Donald Trump himself spread it, but also people in liberal media as well. This conspiracy theory that COVID-19 actually originated inside a lab inside Wuhan province. Talk to us about what was claimed and then what the actual facts were, which you went through in a recent piece with Max Blumenthal for TheGrayzone.com.

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, so in early January, a very fringe conspiracy theory in right-wing outlets such as The Washington Times claimed that the novel coronavirus was engineered as part of a bio warfare program by the Chinese government. This was roundly discredited by the scientific community first, but also mainstream media outlets in the United States also, as being a nonsensical conspiracy theory. A group of…a team of US, British and Australian researchers were quite emphatic in an article in the scientific journal Nature in March, in which they said there’s…we don’t believe any type of laboratory scenario is possible, both engineering or that it was some sort of laboratory experimental construct. And, similarly, a group of dozens of public health scientists wrote an open letter in The Lancet medical journal, stating that scientific findings today overwhelmingly conclude that the coronavirus originated in wildlife like so many other emerging pathogens, and condemned conspiracy theories.

Nonetheless, despite this conspiracy theory being discredited and despite the overwhelming scientific stance against this sort of theory, a sort of slightly altered version of this has been attempted to be revived by The Washington Post‘s Josh Rogin and the US government, relying on a couple of State Department cables from 2018. Rogin alleges there were dangerous safety issues and reckless research being conducted at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and that that was studying China bat coronaviruses. He bases, Josh Rogin [does], his fearmongering about safety concerns on a single comment by US embassy officials who have no apparent scientific expertise, and the comment referred to concerns that there weren’t enough trained technicians at the laboratory.

But Rogin’s own cable, in its own words, it says most importantly the thing that it identifies from its visit is that, from a public health perspective, the research being done at this lab is critical to preventing and predicting future emerging coronavirus outbreaks. I think there’s this idea that Rogin relies on, that this is some sort of shadowy lab doing reckless research, when in fact it has the highest international standard of biosafety precaution and it’s one of dozens of such facilities around the world. The United States has 13 of these types of biosafety labs as of 2013, and the goal of this research is not some nefarious reckless purpose but to understand, prevent, and treat these very deadly diseases. This biosafety lab was the product of not just a Chinese initiative, but it was a Chinese-French joint collaboration, and technicians who work there were trained not only in the United States…not only in China, but in the United States, Australia, Canada and France, before the lab became operational. They’ve published their training protocols transparently with the US CDC in a journal that the US CDC runs on emerging infectious diseases. And Rogin relies on this one comment in order to make this very damning claim, and he doesn’t speak to any scientists, any virologists, epidemiologists, anyone with expertise in the area. Instead he relies on the insinuations of anonymous Trump officials and someone he refers to as a research scientist who, in fact, is a Chinese dissident with decades of backing by the US government and National Endowment for Democracy, who has no expertise in the area but in fact teaches classes on blogging and internet freedom in China.

So, I think it’s important to understand that this is not a genuine scientific article but very much a WMD-style conspiracy theory attempting to gin up hostility against China. It’s important to note also that Rogin and his work has been roundly criticized by virologists in the United States for presenting vague claims that don’t present the specific risk with the research being done on bat coronaviruses by Chinese researchers, and that they ignore the importance of this work. And in response to these criticisms that he didn’t interview any virologists or scientists for his study, Rogin claims that he spoke to top virologists, but he refuses to include their comments in his article or indicate what they said. He just says he spoke to them and they disagree with these other virologists that are criticizing him. He’s also explicitly refused to publish the State Department cables in full when asked to do so by scientists.

I think it’s important that we also recognize that the work being done there, there’s no evidence that he provides that the work being done on coronaviruses is unsafe. He tries to smear the work of the head of the lab’s research on bat coronaviruses, Shi Zheng-Li, and he cites a 2015 article in Nature, which refers to a debate by scientists over the risks associated with certain research done of bat coronaviruses. That article doesn’t even name Shi Zheng-Li and refers to a study that was being conducted not in Wuhan but in the United States and led by majority American researchers of which Shi Zheng-Li was one of 13 co-authors. And, so, we can see that this is completely a speculative hit piece and not a substantive concern with safety issues in this lab. And it’s very concerning that this article has not been met with any resistance by the so-called “liberal resistance” to Trump. We’ve seen Chris Hayes of MSNBC promote it. We’ve seen Yashar Ali of New York magazine promote it, along with other liberal media members who are purportedly anti-Trump. They’re helping mainstream this very fringe conspiracy theory. And that’s very concerning to see.

AARON MATÉ: Yeah, I think Chris Hayes shared the article on Twitter and just wrote “Yikes”, which was my reaction to seeing Chris Hayes credulously share this article on Twitter, without questioning it.

Well, speaking of Russiagate peddlers, let’s talk about the parallels here to Russiagate. So that lab theory is a very good example of a conspiracy theory. Sometimes conspiracy theories turn out to be correct. In this case, though, you’ve just laid out some of the reasons why it is very specious, to say the least, and you detailed it even more in your piece with Max Blumenthal at TheGrayzone.com.

Now, Russiagate was based on a conspiracy theory that Russia conspired with Donald Trump and that’s what decided the 2016 election. And it served multiple political goals that I’ve covered extensively and you touched on, including helping Democrats excuse their loss, and also helping the national security state undermine Trump’s calls, however sincere they were, of better calls with Russia, and to keep the US and Russia locked in a dangerous Cold War. And now we’re seeing, in the case of China, there is utility for the conspiracy theories we’re hearing about China and the blame towards China. You know, there is an imperative in maintaining tensions with China and keeping the very expensive but lucrative for military industry coffers Cold War going, and also for deflecting blame from the failures here at home, that failed to adequately prepare for the coronavirus and stop its spread.

So, let’s talk about these interests here. I want to read to you a couple of things. There was a report by the Congressional Research Service written in December of 2019, just before the coronavirus crisis began, and it notes that under Trump the US has escalated what’s called this shift towards Great Power Competition, shifting its national security strategy away from fighting so-called terrorism and instead engaged in Great Power Competition, namely with Russia and China. And the Congressional Research Service says this, quote, “Department of Defense officials have identified countering China’s military capabilities as the Pentagon’s top priority.” And since the coronavirus crisis has broken out, we’ve seen them capitalize on that. Or at least pursue that goal. Recently a report to Congress called…from the Pentagon, asked for $20.1 billion in equipment, and I’m quoting from The New York Times here, “in equipment, exercises and defense investments to counter China in 2021 and beyond.” Ajit Singh, if you could respond to all this.

AJIT SINGH: Yeah, I think we’re seeing an escalation of not a new phenomenon but a long-standing bipartisan strategy of the United States that dates back to, at least in its modern iteration, the 2008-2016 Obama administration, which started off the Pivot to Asia, which was the military pivot of US naval assets to the Asia-Pacific. And this trend has been escalated under the Trump administration with, as you mentioned, this sort of identification of quote-unquote “Great Power Competition” taking over from quote-unquote “The War on Terror” as the now primary objective of US national security.

We’ve also heard statements at the recent…another number of statements identifying China along with countries like Russia as the principal threat facing the United States. In November at a NATO ministerial meeting, Mike Pompeo explicitly referred to the first Cold War and the so-called victory of the Allies against the threat of the Soviet Union. He explicitly referred to that with mention of now the threat facing…the primary threat facing the NATO allies and the United States being the Chinese Communist Party. I think there are a number of structural reasons for this in addition to the narrow-minded or the narrow self-interest of, like, the military-industrial complex or the self-interest of politicians to avoid criticism or to redirect attention towards a foreign enemy.

I think…and we’ve seen even the US left and critical voices unwilling to even acknowledge this, that China presents an impediment not just at the level of a conflict between two equal powers, but it presents an impediment to the US international strategy, vis-à-vis a host of enemy countries. China, while an imperfect country, is distinct from the United States in a number of important ways—ways that are incredibly important for other developing countries, for example, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Syria. For many of these countries which the United States attempts to, in the words of the Nixon administration, strangle or make the economy scream, China presents a source of financing, economic engagement and diplomatic support which is not conditioned upon that government implementing neoliberalism or implementing a change in government, as we’ve seen the United States attempt to condition aid to Venezuela with, with the Guaidó situation. And so, this undermines, really, the foundation of US foreign policy and imperialism. And so, what we’re seeing, I think, the way that we should understand the current situation isn’t [as] some sort of escalation coming out of nowhere, but really the US establishment in both parties seizing on this current crisis in order to advance an already-existing agenda that they have, being a new Cold War or great power confrontation or competition vis-à-vis China.

And I think this is extremely disturbing, regardless of one’s opinion on China, if we can bracket that for a second. It’s incredibly disturbing for a number of reasons. One, it’s revealing the incredibly low standard of evidence required to make pretty much any claim about China as long as it’s useful to US foreign policy and the US agenda. As we’ve seen with this Rogin story, or previous stories citing unnamed social media reports, to claim that China is hiding tens of thousands of coronavirus stats, that’s a standard of evidence we would never accept for allied countries or for the United States itself.

This, first, is disturbing because it’s really ratcheting it up—tensions in the United States towards China, and hostility. A recent poll of Republicans and Democrats from a couple weeks ago found that over seventy-five percent blame China for coronavirus and over fifty percent say China owes reparations. That’s a stronger position that they have than for reparations for African Americans for slavery, let alone even considering reparations for any country the United States has destroyed. And most recently this week, an even more disturbing poll—because it goes beyond just Republican and Democrat[ic] Party members—by Pew Research found that two-thirds of Americans now view China unfavorably. That’s up from 47 percent just two years ago, and nine out of ten adults view China as a threat, and 62 percent view China as a major threat.

So this isn’t just a…this obviously is a concern in terms of peace and international confrontation and all the fallout that that could have, but also it’s very dangerous from a domestic perspective, I think, for ordinary working Americans and for progressive-minded Americans. We’re seeing it’s already empowering the right-wing center-right and far-right to weaponize anti-China sentiment for nefarious ends. We’re already seeing a dangerous rise in racist hate crimes against people of Asian descent across the US. We saw the anti-quarantine protesters telling health care workers to, quote, “Go to China” if they want communism. Just this week, before Trump referred to being attacked…the attack of an invisible enemy in order to justify his anti-immigration politics, and it’s also being weaponized by both parties of the establishment in order to…in the same way that Russiagate in 2016 was used to blunt any self-critique of the Democrats’ neoliberal policy. It’s being used by both parties to blunt any critique of themselves or any systemic critique of US capitalism and holding those entities—the US system or the US government—responsible, instead trying to redirect genuine outrage towards China. It’s obviously emboldening Trump to try to pin the blame for his administration’s catastrophic failures onto a foreign enemy, but it’s also being used by the Biden campaign and the Democratic establishment to blunt any sort of critique or policy concessions required being owed to the Sanders contingent or Sanders campaign, because their apparent focus is to show how Joe Biden is more anti-China than Trump is and how Trump is selling out to China.

And I think this is a very dangerous strategy for those of us, or for those in the United States who seek progressive changes, that will actually address the crises that are going on in the United States in terms of health care, debt, unemployment, inequality. And even for those who are solely concerned with just defeating Trump, as many centrists and establishment Democrats claim they are, this is absolutely, almost certainly a losing strategy. Because it ultimately provides justification for the basis of Trump’s narrative, that he’s not responsible but China is, if the Democrats just pursue a strategy of “it’s all China’s fault.” And so, I think for people in America, I think it’s very important to resist this sort of wholly exaggerated, dishonest representation of China because it will very likely be used against them.

AARON MATÉ: Ajit Singh, attorney and journalist, writes extensively about China. You can find his work at TheGrayzone.com. Ajit, thanks very much.

AJIT SINGH: Thank you.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby 8bitagent » Mon May 04, 2020 6:33 am



From ABC News This Week yesterday....am I watching David Icke on Alex Jones ? :p Martha Raddatz point blank asks Sec of State Pompeo if he thinks Covid-19 came from the Wuhan lab, if the virus was altered/weaponized, and if he thought China did it on purpose. Are we being set up for "Iraq has WMDs and ties to 9/11 circa 2002"? Or is this a limited hangout? How long til Bill Gates and Amazon gets roped in? :p

Newsweek last week publushed this
Dr. Fauci Backed Controversial Wuhan Lab with Millions of U.S. Dollars for Risky Coronavirus Research
https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backe ... ch-1500741

I literally remember in late January/early February threads of Reddit and elsewhere talking about Covid coming from a Wuhan lab, manipulated bat coronavirus, and China intentionally stopping information about the spread to the world and cutting off the supply of masks/ventilators/gowns/etc to the rest of the world.

I still can't see the US and allies going to literal war with China, even if China were to full on take over Taiwan militarily. Most the shit America relies on, from medication to clothing to all our phones and gadgets is made in China. Plus Trump and Pompeo continually praise North Korea/Kim Jong Un(Pompeo had a big fat smile on ABC when asked yesterday about where Kim Jong Un had been hiding for weeks)
THE IRONIC THING is, China still holds billions in American debt from the Bush wars...and Chinese mineral and oil companies sure as hell benefited from Afghanistan and Iran.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby SonicG » Mon May 04, 2020 8:34 pm

Thanks for the Mate/Singh discussion Jack ~ excellent refutation of Chinese and WHO inaction!

Even if the US wants to flex military might in the South China (East Vietnam) Sea, they are going to have to wait.

Exclusive: Too risky to come home, crew of 'clean' U.S. warship in coronavirus limbo

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - On any given day, the U.S. aircraft carrier Harry S. Truman can be found off the Atlantic coast of the United States, probably somewhere between Virginia and Florida. Its crew would love to come home to their families. But they can’t. They’re just too valuable right now.
That’s because the Truman is a “clean” ship, free from the coronavirus thanks to a longer-than-expected deployment at sea that started in November. The deployment has kept its battle-ready 4,500 crew out of reach of a pandemic that is wreaking havoc elsewhere in the Navy.

Captain Kavon “Hak” Hakimzadeh and members of his crew described to Reuters in exclusive interviews the mixed emotions of being so close to home, but too precious to pull into port, as the Truman settles into a pandemic-driven operational limbo.

“This is a really weird situation for us,” Hakimzadeh told Reuters by phone, the only way to speak to anyone on board given a ban on visitors.

The crew members interviewed said they understood why the Truman needed to remain offshore to ensure combat readiness. The virus ripped through another carrier, the Theodore Roosevelt, infecting more than 1,100 sailors.

The hope is that once the Nimitz aircraft carrier strike group is up and running, the Truman can finally come home. But with the coronavirus proving dangerous and the world being unpredictable, the Navy doesn’t want to put a date on the Truman’s return.
...
THE LAST SHIP?
In a world awash with dark Hollywood dramas, one television show that’s been popular among the Truman crew is “The Last Ship.” It imagined a U.S. Navy destroyer that was at sea, in radio silence, when a deadly pandemic devastated the world.

Senior Chief Petty Officer Kevin Dublynn said one of his shipmates had mentioned it to him.

“He felt like, ‘Oh, man. This is just like ‘The Last Ship’ show,’” Dublynn said. “I was like, ‘No, it’s not,’” adding the Navy had plenty of ships.

Steven Kane, the TV show’s co-creator and executive producer, said the 2014-2018 TNT drama explored how ill-intentioned people could exploit a pandemic and how easily a virus could wipe out a ship.

Kane acknowledged that readiness was crucial “but my heart breaks for the families and the sailors who are stuck now just off the coast.”

The Pentagon has been trying to warn adversaries that ships such as the Truman are by no means the exception and the U.S. military remains ready for war despite the pandemic. "The U.S. Navy has 90 ships at sea on watch for the American people," U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper said on Twitter here April 17.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22D53A


A tv show?....huh...

ETA: Add in all the problems and scandals the US Navy has had in the Pacific Fleet the last few years...
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue May 05, 2020 8:10 am

Exclusive: Internal Chinese report warns Beijing faces Tiananmen-like global backlash over virus

BEIJING (Reuters) - An internal Chinese report warns that Beijing faces a rising wave of hostility in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak that could tip relations with the United States into confrontation, people familiar with the paper told Reuters.

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

As a result, Beijing faces a wave of anti-China sentiment led by the United States in the aftermath of the pandemic and needs to be prepared in a worst-case scenario for armed confrontation between the two global powers, according to people familiar with the report’s content, who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter.

The report was drawn up by the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations (CICIR), a think tank affiliated with the Ministry of State Security, China’s top intelligence body.

Reuters has not seen the briefing paper, but it was described by people who had direct knowledge of its findings.

“I don’t have relevant information,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson’s office said in a statement responding to questions from Reuters on the report.

China’s Ministry of State Security has no public contact details and could not be reached for comment.

CICIR, an influential think tank that until 1980 was within the Ministry of State Security and advises the Chinese government on foreign and security policy, did not reply to a request for comment.

Reuters couldn’t determine to what extent the stark assessment described in the paper reflects positions held by China’s state leaders, and to what extent, if at all, it would influence policy. But the presentation of the report shows how seriously Beijing takes the threat of a building backlash that could threaten what China sees as its strategic investments overseas and its view of its security standing.

Relations between China and the United States are widely seen to be at their worst point in decades, with deepening mistrust and friction points from U.S. allegations of unfair trade and technology practices to disputes over Hong Kong, Taiwan and contested territories in the South China Sea.

In recent days, U.S. President Donald Trump, facing a more difficult re-election campaign as the coronavirus has claimed tens of thousands of American lives and ravaged the U.S. economy, has been ramping up his criticism of Beijing and threatening new tariffs on China. His administration, meanwhile, is considering retaliatory measures against China over the outbreak, officials said.

It is widely believed in Beijing that the United States wants to contain a rising China, which has become more assertive globally as its economy has grown.

The paper concluded that Washington views China’s rise as an economic and national security threat and a challenge to Western democracies, the people said. The report also said the United States was aiming to undercut the ruling Communist Party by undermining public confidence.

Chinese officials had a “special responsibility” to inform their people and the world of the threat posed by the coronavirus “since they were the first to learn of it,” U.S. State Department spokeswoman Morgan Ortagus said in response to questions from Reuters.

Without directly addressing the assessment made in the Chinese report, Ortagus added: “Beijing’s efforts to silence scientists, journalists, and citizens and spread disinformation exacerbated the dangers of this health crisis.”

A spokesman for the U.S. National Security Council declined to comment.
REPERCUSSIONS

The report described to Reuters warned that anti-China sentiment sparked by the coronavirus could fuel resistance to China’s Belt and Road infrastructure investment projects, and that Washington could step up financial and military support for regional allies, making the security situation in Asia more volatile.

Three decades ago, in the aftermath of Tiananmen, the United States and many Western governments imposed sanctions against China including banning or restricting arms sales and technology transfers.

China is far more powerful nowadays.

Xi has revamped China’s military strategy to create a fighting force equipped to win modern wars. He is expanding China’s air and naval reach in a challenge to more than 70 years of U.S. military dominance in Asia.

In its statement, China’s foreign ministry called for cooperation, saying, “the sound and steady development of China-U.S. relations” serve the interests of both countries and the international community.

It added: “any words or actions that engage in political manipulation or stigmatization under the pretext of the pandemic, including taking the opportunity to sow discord between countries, are not conducive to international cooperation against the pandemic.”

COLD WAR ECHOES

One of those with knowledge of the report said it was regarded by some in the Chinese intelligence community as China’s version of the “Novikov Telegram”, a 1946 dispatch by the Soviet ambassador to Washington, Nikolai Novikov, that stressed the dangers of U.S. economic and military ambition in the wake of World War Two.

Novikov’s missive was a response to U.S. diplomat George Kennan’s “Long Telegram” from Moscow that said the Soviet Union did not see the possibility for peaceful coexistence with the West, and that containment was the best long-term strategy.

The two documents helped set the stage for the strategic thinking that defined both sides of the Cold War.

China has been accused by the United States of suppressing early information on the virus, which was first detected in the central city of Wuhan, and downplaying its risks.

Beijing has repeatedly denied that it covered up the extent or severity of the virus outbreak.

China has managed to contain domestic spread of the virus and has been trying to assert a leading role in the global battle against COVID-19. That has included a propaganda push around its donations and sale of medical supplies to the United States and other countries and sharing of expertise.

But China faces a growing backlash from critics who have called to hold Beijing accountable for its role in the pandemic.

Trump has said he will cut off funding for the World Health Organization (WHO), which he called “very China-centric,” something WHO officials have denied.

Australia’s government has called for an international investigation into the origins and spread of the virus.

Last month, France summoned China’s ambassador to protest a publication on the website of China’s embassy that criticized Western handling of coronavirus.

The virus has so far infected more than 3 million people globally and caused more than 200,000 deaths, according to a Reuters tally.


"Cold War Echoes," indeed. Though the Reuters dispatch drolly notes that "China is far more powerful nowadays," this won't be a military conflict -- and if it is, it will be swift and brutal, a Hiroshima-style unveiling of new US capabilities. America will never invade Beijing; it will also never have to.

But nor will Beijing need to invade Washington. We are already decades into a cold war with China, and China has been perhaps more witting about this than Americans are -- certainly more witting than the politicians and pundits they've bought here over the years. The source of China's power is not their military might but their central role in the global economy, sourcing both inputs and cheap labor. And most especially dogshit "good enough" manufacturing.

In fact, China makes up more than a quarter of the entire planet's manufacturing capacity. So this will continue to be what it always has been -- a cold war fought with soft power.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby dada » Tue May 05, 2020 10:09 am

It's as if frustration with China is displaced frustration with the structure of the global economy. China's lockdown rocked the markets, I'm sure that was an eye-opener for some.

Nothing can be done about the structure, though.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue May 05, 2020 8:24 pm

I doubt we're going to war with China, as it would be the last war, leaving few survivors to survive. I see it all as demonizing the enemy, China, now that our weapons sales to continue our battles in Afghanistan and the Middle East have petered out, to placate warhawks in order to keep their campaign contributions flowing, and to distract voters in general away from focusing upon Trump's ineptitude as Commander In Chief, which has brought us death by the thousands.

The attack on the grid that prompted Trump's executive order to take control over it was probably manufactured for the same reason, to distract.
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Re: The Coming War on China

Postby SonicG » Sat May 09, 2020 10:23 pm

Sure, I doubt we will see all-out military war with China...but then again, we are moving into uncharted waters...Trump and Pompeo seem to think there is some benefit in beating these drums:


Trump claims coronavirus 'attack' worse than Pearl Harbor, 9/11
US and China exchange rhetoric over global pandemic that has claimed more than 255,000 lives, with US the worst hit.

US President Donald Trump on Wednesday called the coronavirus pandemic the worst "attack" the country had ever experienced and blamed China for not stopping it, amid a deepening war of words between the United States and China over the virus.
"This is worse than Pearl Harbor. This is worse than the World Trade Center," Trump said at a White House event, referring to the Japanese bombing of the US airbase that brought the Americans into the second world war and the September 11 attacks.
"It should have never happened," Trump continued. "It could have been stopped at the source. It could have been stopped in China. It should have been stopped right at the source, and it wasn't."
.........
Pompeo also repeated his criticisms of China on Wednesday.

"They knew. China could have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. China could have spared the world descent into global economic malaise," Pompeo told a State Department news conference.

"China is still refusing to share the information we need to keep people safe."

Earlier, the government in Beijing pushed back against the US claims, singling out previous weekend remarks made by Pompeo on the origins of the virus.

"I think this matter should be handed to scientists and medical professionals, and not politicians who lie for their own domestic political ends," Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told reporters on Wednesday.

"Mr Pompeo repeatedly spoke up but he cannot present any evidence. How can he? Because he doesn't have any," Hua added.

On Sunday, Pompeo said there was "a significant amount of evidence" the virus emerged from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, having said the previous Thursday it was not known whether it came from the lab, a so-called wet market, or some other place.

On Wednesday, Pompeo said the US did not have certainty, but there was significant evidence it came from the lab.

"Every one of those statements is entirely consistent," he said. "We are all trying to figure out the right answer. We are all trying to get the clarity."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/ ... 07276.html
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