Elvis wrote:I'm satisfied there's no basement in CPP.
That's the one thing that seems to meet the criteria of "debunked." But, and this is a big but, the information about tunnels underneath that part of Washington AFAIK has not been debunked, and (ergo) nor has the possibility of an entrance to those alleged tunnels, inside
CPP. The tunnels-for-trafficking idea, common also to McMartin testimonies, is a weird mix of mythical/fairy-tale/far-fetched with logical, pragmatic, & credible.
There is nothing that unlikely about tunnels underneath major cities, & my own impression, rightly or wrongly, is that it seems to be more often the case than not.There is nothing at all improbable about criminals using them, either. They seem to combine the utility factor with the dread theatrical element that is used to "mythologize" accounts and make them seem fantasy-based. If I had to bet, I'd say yeah, there be tunnels under CPP. Anyone here followed up that lead at all?
Elvis wrote:We have no idea of the context behind the little girl with her hands masking-taped to a table (except that Alefantis said it was his niece), but to me it's not at all out of the realm of play for a child that age; she looks like she's having fun.
First off, why pick just one of the many Instragram images, and why leave out the comments? If we are going to analyze the evidence, we don't want to be cherry-picking but at least pick a selection. Combined, the CPP Instragam pics clearly show a cultural norm of joking about pedophilia
among Alefantis & his buddies. Or do you disagree?
Second, "she looks like she's having fun": does this really address the possibility that the little girl was being abused, before or after the "fun" part? Do you believe that children who are abused cannot have fun, or look like they are having fun, during the times they are not being abused? Isn't it also possible that child abusers were using the girl for a "photo-op" to signal to others in their "club" what's going on, i.e., that it's not necessary to see this particular girl as being abused to see that picture as evidence of abuse within that circle of Instragrammers.
Personally, I am more inclined to side with slomo and see the picture as itself being abusive, ipso facto, at least staged and shot in that particular climate (jokes about child abuse). I am trying to lean over a bit to accommodate the sexual-weirdness-tolerance that's so prevalent these days (for the sake of argument, only; I personally don't think it should
Elvis wrote:The pedo symbols in a neighboring pizza joint's sign? Pizza slices are triangular, and if you're an artist being paid to make a sign for pizza business, you're probably gonna draw pizza slices with some abstract daubs for toppings.
& if you're a high-power business owner in Washington DC, with at least some
awareness of high level pedo-rings? (I mean, at least as much as we have here at the forum ~ hello??) Do you think the FBI take these symbols seriously, or is that part of the prank? If they do take them seriously, do you think they'd say what you did: "Looks like a pedo-symbol but, shit, looks like a Pizza too. Fuck it." Don't you think the whole point of having these pedo symbols is to be able to signal to others in the know without it looking obvious to anyone else, even if they should happen to hear about these symbols?
You seem to expect high-level criminal predators to use a code that's easy to break and hence easy to expose.
Turning it around: if there is a massive, partially-organized, partially loose/organic subculture of child trafficking and child porn and child abuse in Washington DC (and the world), which I think we pretty much know is the case at this point, and if it has found ways to operate at least somewhat in plain sight, how would we expect it to look? Myself, I would expect it to look a lot like CPP and all the connecting evidence. This is why I take the evidence seriously, and why I expect, nay, demand
, a higher-level of debunking to happen before I decide otherwise.
Elvis wrote:Also consider, frankly, the initial sources of the 'theory', very motivated to make the Democratic players look as bad as possible.
Is this true, number one? (you need to say which theory, exactly; I've done some theorizing myself, and I am as far from a partisan voice as you are ever likely to encounter) Number two, is it relevant? It's a reason to be extra-careful and extra-scrupulous in checking the evidence and the sources; but it's not really an argument against the evidence being valid, any more than claiming the Podesta emails were hacked by Russia is an argument against their authenticity (which has to be scrutinized anyway).
Elvis wrote:The good part if all this to me is, it made me much more aware of the murky power relationships among the big-money foundations & think-tanks (CAP e.g.), lobbying, staffing administrations, etc.
& yet you left out a mountain of possible evidence connecting Alefantis & CPP to possible child-trafficking orgs. You chose to end the "Pizzagate" analysis pretty much where the collective public #FAKENEWS viewpoint ends, with all of the "circumstantial" evidence which, when framed cunningly enough, can be safely mocked as tin-foil hatters crazed dot-joining.
Even there, you left out some of the most damning parts (e.g. Majestic Ape, the jokes about pedophilia).
Elvis wrote:But alas I'd say PG has been a net "lose" for the broad effort to unravel elite pedophile networks.
This story has been out there for how long? A little under two months? And yet you are already calculating the net results (at least put a "so far" in there, dude). Even so, what are you basing this on? All the Fake News stories? The discussions at this forum? Conversations you've had with your family? Besides the whole #FAKENEWS meme being pushed, which was already being pushed before #Pizzagate, my impression is not of a net lose, at all, but of rapidly escalating public awareness, both of high-level child abuse, trafficking & porn, and of the MSM's obvious complicity in concealing it. It's true that the "debunking" voices are becoming shriller and more vicious, but that itself may be proof that the vicious shills are losing the battle.
Elvis wrote:I give you major props, Guruilla, for delving as deeply as you have and laying out your findings here. If you have a good "but what about—?" that I've missed, then I'm completely open to tempering my view. (Do I admit?—I wanted it all to be true).
Thanks Elvis, and thanks for addressing this in an open way. Friendly challenges (as opposed to snark-attacks, which are all-too-easy to provoke at RI) are invaluable as opportunities for examining this subject. Out of personal curiosity, why do you think you wanted
it to be true?
liminalOyster wrote:As the Voat sub now seems to be serving as a curious admixture of honeypot, deviant thought aggregator, disinfo machine, and the odd flash of anti-semitism/fascism etc, I wanted to see what others thought.
Hi LimOy. Voat sub has indeed deteriorated rapidly, probably due to the flood of Brock-bots precipitating an exodus of serious researchers to a safer zone.
Heaven Swan wrote:What has disturbed me the most about PG is fear that it will cause serous credibility problems for survivors and their allies.
I know Project Willow has expressed this concern also, but I haven't quite seen the logic of it. If PG was proven to be 100% fake, possibly, but that's not likely to happen. Nothing hurt the credibility of survivors more than the McMartin case and the whole Satanic Panic/Witch-Hunt counter-narrative; but this latter only emerged as a defense against the increased awareness of the reality of the claims. This derailing process, as I discussed recently while reviewing Cheit Witch-Hunt narrative
, was probably initiated by the perpetrators themselves, both in terms of how they enacted their crimes (incredible/fantastic elements) and in terms of infiltrating the investigations and steering it towards more extreme interpretations and hysterical moralizing.
The same thing may be occurring with #Pizzagate, tho the key difference is that here there are no victim testimonies, and the spark that has ignited this fire is qualitatively different, and a lot easier to dismiss.
Heaven Swan wrote:BTW Thanks for the new thread Guruilla.
I just wanted to do the poll, but in light of how the other thread has turned into a lounge chat for Tarot -readers & Capra-lovers, maybe this was well-timed?
For future archivists, an on-and-off 80+ page discussion of Pizzagate here
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.