What is #Pizzagate?

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What is #Pizzagate?

Right-Wing Hysteria/Hillary-Smear-Campaign
14
24%
Psy-Op to Discredit & Distract from Actual High-Level Pedophilia
10
17%
An Orchestrated Exposé to Destabilize Power Structures
4
7%
A Glimpse into Pedo-Culture in Washington, DC
17
29%
Evidence that Comet Ping Pong is a Money-Laundering Front for Child-Porn/Trafficking Business
4
7%
Evidence that Comet Ping Pong is both a Front & a Location for Child Abuse, Ritual or Otherwise
2
3%
All of the Above
3
5%
Other (Specify)
5
8%
 
Total votes : 59

What is #Pizzagate?

Postby guruilla » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:24 pm

This survey is inspired by Elvis's recent comment
Elvis » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:46 pm wrote: I'm now pretty well persuaded that the gist of pizzagate—the "code words" referring to child sex abuse and most "supporting" details—is, if you will, debunked.


So what exactly IS #Pizzagate anyway? What is it Elvis has been persuaded ~ legitimately or not ~ has been debunked?

To stick the name “#Pizzagate” onto an amorphous and constantly changing body of evidence (including pseudo-evidence, theories, etc) right at the start of the “investigation” (which is occurring via a million computer screens) is more than just premature. At this point, I think it's process-hijacking, one that we become complicit with just by using the term #Pizzagate, regardless of our position.

(Example: I don’t think any of the arguments I’ve made have depended on the Podesta emails or the alleged code words or even the (more damning) pedophilia symbols. Yet because they kick-started the whole #Pizzagate thing, the shakiness of those elements is being used by some people to dismiss the whole thing, even tho what kick-starts an investigation has no bearing on the validity of any evidence that is subsequently found. It’s just a catalyst.)

#Pizzagate” needs to be separated from the many different strands of evidence, otherwise how do we even know when we are talking about the same thing? I might agree with Elvis, I might not. What is clear (to me) at this point is that some of the evidence that’s being included in the catch-all term #Pizzagate is solid & substantial. Some of it is circumstantial but significant. Some of it is significant but highly subjective. Some if it has been legitimately debunked. Some it doesn’t deserve the term evidence, at all. And all of it is getting lumped under the same banner of #Pizzagate #FakeNews #ConspiracyTheory.

Divide & Conquer works best when we don't take the time to define our terms, on our terms.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Elvis » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:10 pm

This is a conversation worth having, so let me post my reply from the other thread here, as it may begin to clarify my meaning:

Elvis » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:01 pm wrote:
guruilla » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:30 pm wrote:
Elvis » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:46 pm wrote:All that said, I'm now pretty well persuaded that the gist of pizzagate—the "code words" referring to child sex abuse and most "supporting" details—is, if you will, debunked.

Gee, I must've missed that. Link?


I've tried very hard to step back and objectively look at the elements. It's all in three or four threads here on the forum, and in the Podesta emails themselves. After going through the emails, I just do not see "pizza" as a code word (with the possible exception of a couple of references to illicit drugs; I'd be surprised if the Podestas didn't indulge in something.

I'm satisfied there's no basement in CPP.

The artist who did the weird murals has expained (and suffered) quite a bit.

We have no idea of the context behind the little girl with her hands masking-taped to a table (except that Alefantis said it was his niece), but to me it's not at all out of the realm of play for a child that age; she looks like she's having fun.

The pedo symbols in a neighboring pizza joint's sign? Pizza slices are triangular, and if you're an artist being paid to make a sign for pizza business, you're probably gonna draw pizza slices with some abstract daubs for toppings.

Also consider, frankly, the initial sources of the 'theory', very motivated to make the Democratic players look as bad as possible.

What else? So much was conflated that when studied closely, doesn't pan out, not to me anyway.

None of that means I don't regard the Podestas brothers with contempt, just from looking at the public record. Questions remain, and I'm not satisfied that Tony Podesta's taste in art doesn't reflect something horrible.

If the Podestas themselves are not directly involved in child trafficking (and I don't rule that out), I feel rather certain—just based on what we know about the interstices of power and pedophilia—that trafficking lurks very close to their circles.

Another question that bothers me is why would GQ name Alefantis as the 49th most influential (not "most powerful" as so many have rephrased it)? His Democratic fundraisers, connections to movers like Brock and others could explain it. But 49th in all of Washington D.C.?

The good part if all this to me is, it made me much more aware of the murky power relationships among the big-money foundations & think-tanks (CAP e.g.), lobbying, staffing administrations, etc.

But alas I'd say PG has been a net "lose" for the broad effort to unravel elite pedophile networks.

I give you major props, Guruilla, for delving as deeply as you have and laying out your findings here. If you have a good "but what about—?" that I've missed, then I'm completely open to tempering my view. (Do I admit?—I wanted it all to be true).
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:16 am

Someone here posted that #pg was best understood as a piece of “naive folk art.” I like that and it seems a good characterization. But how did it start? Is it being “handled” from the shadows or is that my gullible talking? I spent an hour digging through the Voat sub and I was struck by the degree that it feels like a two-bit poorly illustrated recreation of the research/speculation activity on this here board that followed the Duncan/Blake suicides. Pedo networks, synchronistic elements, Franklin, MK Ultra, etc. I was't here but I have read the archive from that time.

Obviously in subsequent years this stuff has dramatically permeated the web and pop culture (in addition to obvious culprits like Alex Jones, also True Detective S1 where the writing credits may as well include the Hosanna perps, not to mention Stranger Things et al). But there’s something about the inclusion of the art world that is almost like a signature of RI circa 2007-9. Wherein the phantom figure of Anna Gaskell is now played by Marina Abramovic. (Gaskell btw is listed as a guest of Tony Podesta in an early 00’s magazine profile) Interesting partly because, although I don't doubt the presence of pedo perps in the art world, I'm not familiar with any known scandals as such therein. Ana Mendieta and the S/M murders but I don't believe kids were known to be caught up in that.

As the Voat sub now seems to be serving as a curious admixture of honeypot, deviant thought aggregator, disinfo machine, and the odd flash of anti-semitism/fascism etc, I wanted to see what others thought.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby American Dream » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:44 am

liminalOyster » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:16 am wrote:
As the Voat sub now seems to be serving as a curious admixture of honeypot, deviant thought aggregator, disinfo machine, and the odd flash of anti-semitism/fascism etc, I wanted to see what others thought.


I can't remember if and how the Ong's Hat scam was a part of all that earlier drama as I wasn't here then but this made me think of that old- but elaborate PsyOp.

The best prisons are those built and maintained by the prisoners, no?
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Heaven Swan » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:02 pm

I didn't vote since I agree with these 3:

Right-Wing Hysteria/Hillary-Smear-Campaign
Psy-Op to Discredit & Distract from Actual High-Level Pedophilia
A Glimpse into Pedo-Culture in Washington, DC


What has disturbed me the most about PG is fear that it will cause serous credibility problems for survivors and their allies.

But, at least pedo in high places is getting talked about in the wider culture. In light of the gun incident and overall hysteria, right now things don't look so good, but the optimist in me hopes that when it all shakes out the exposure will open minds and encourage a wider circle to deal with this issue.


BTW Thanks for the new thread Guruilla.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Nordic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:58 pm

Unless there are in fact secret rooms or basements in the place, it seems unlikely that any actual serious abuse would be happening there. Seems too public.

Then again one of the most disturbing thing I've ever seen in my life, involving the abuse of children, and where I realized I was not feeling safe, was at a pizza restaurant in a small town in California. My girlfriend and I were just passing through and wanted to get some pizza and maybe a beer and found this pizza place tucked out of view from the main road. Nobody stopped us from going in but there was some very very weird shit going down and some pretty imtimidating big guys were making it very clear we weren't welcome and needed to GTFO. Creepy as hell.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby guruilla » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:10 pm

Elvis wrote:I'm satisfied there's no basement in CPP.

That's the one thing that seems to meet the criteria of "debunked." But, and this is a big but, the information about tunnels underneath that part of Washington AFAIK has not been debunked, and (ergo) nor has the possibility of an entrance to those alleged tunnels, inside CPP. The tunnels-for-trafficking idea, common also to McMartin testimonies, is a weird mix of mythical/fairy-tale/far-fetched with logical, pragmatic, & credible.

There is nothing that unlikely about tunnels underneath major cities, & my own impression, rightly or wrongly, is that it seems to be more often the case than not.There is nothing at all improbable about criminals using them, either. They seem to combine the utility factor with the dread theatrical element that is used to "mythologize" accounts and make them seem fantasy-based. If I had to bet, I'd say yeah, there be tunnels under CPP. Anyone here followed up that lead at all?

Elvis wrote:We have no idea of the context behind the little girl with her hands masking-taped to a table (except that Alefantis said it was his niece), but to me it's not at all out of the realm of play for a child that age; she looks like she's having fun.

First off, why pick just one of the many Instragram images, and why leave out the comments? If we are going to analyze the evidence, we don't want to be cherry-picking but at least pick a selection. Combined, the CPP Instragam pics clearly show a cultural norm of joking about pedophilia among Alefantis & his buddies. Or do you disagree?

Second, "she looks like she's having fun": does this really address the possibility that the little girl was being abused, before or after the "fun" part? Do you believe that children who are abused cannot have fun, or look like they are having fun, during the times they are not being abused? Isn't it also possible that child abusers were using the girl for a "photo-op" to signal to others in their "club" what's going on, i.e., that it's not necessary to see this particular girl as being abused to see that picture as evidence of abuse within that circle of Instragrammers.

Personally, I am more inclined to side with slomo and see the picture as itself being abusive, ipso facto, at least staged and shot in that particular climate (jokes about child abuse). I am trying to lean over a bit to accommodate the sexual-weirdness-tolerance that's so prevalent these days (for the sake of argument, only; I personally don't think it should be accommodated).

Elvis wrote:The pedo symbols in a neighboring pizza joint's sign? Pizza slices are triangular, and if you're an artist being paid to make a sign for pizza business, you're probably gonna draw pizza slices with some abstract daubs for toppings.

& if you're a high-power business owner in Washington DC, with at least some awareness of high level pedo-rings? (I mean, at least as much as we have here at the forum ~ hello??) Do you think the FBI take these symbols seriously, or is that part of the prank? If they do take them seriously, do you think they'd say what you did: "Looks like a pedo-symbol but, shit, looks like a Pizza too. Fuck it." Don't you think the whole point of having these pedo symbols is to be able to signal to others in the know without it looking obvious to anyone else, even if they should happen to hear about these symbols? You seem to expect high-level criminal predators to use a code that's easy to break and hence easy to expose.

Turning it around: if there is a massive, partially-organized, partially loose/organic subculture of child trafficking and child porn and child abuse in Washington DC (and the world), which I think we pretty much know is the case at this point, and if it has found ways to operate at least somewhat in plain sight, how would we expect it to look? Myself, I would expect it to look a lot like CPP and all the connecting evidence. This is why I take the evidence seriously, and why I expect, nay, demand, a higher-level of debunking to happen before I decide otherwise.

Elvis wrote:Also consider, frankly, the initial sources of the 'theory', very motivated to make the Democratic players look as bad as possible.

Is this true, number one? (you need to say which theory, exactly; I've done some theorizing myself, and I am as far from a partisan voice as you are ever likely to encounter) Number two, is it relevant? It's a reason to be extra-careful and extra-scrupulous in checking the evidence and the sources; but it's not really an argument against the evidence being valid, any more than claiming the Podesta emails were hacked by Russia is an argument against their authenticity (which has to be scrutinized anyway).

Elvis wrote:The good part if all this to me is, it made me much more aware of the murky power relationships among the big-money foundations & think-tanks (CAP e.g.), lobbying, staffing administrations, etc.

& yet you left out a mountain of possible evidence connecting Alefantis & CPP to possible child-trafficking orgs. You chose to end the "Pizzagate" analysis pretty much where the collective public #FAKENEWS viewpoint ends, with all of the "circumstantial" evidence which, when framed cunningly enough, can be safely mocked as tin-foil hatters crazed dot-joining.

Even there, you left out some of the most damning parts (e.g. Majestic Ape, the jokes about pedophilia).

Elvis wrote:But alas I'd say PG has been a net "lose" for the broad effort to unravel elite pedophile networks.

This story has been out there for how long? A little under two months? And yet you are already calculating the net results (at least put a "so far" in there, dude). Even so, what are you basing this on? All the Fake News stories? The discussions at this forum? Conversations you've had with your family? Besides the whole #FAKENEWS meme being pushed, which was already being pushed before #Pizzagate, my impression is not of a net lose, at all, but of rapidly escalating public awareness, both of high-level child abuse, trafficking & porn, and of the MSM's obvious complicity in concealing it. It's true that the "debunking" voices are becoming shriller and more vicious, but that itself may be proof that the vicious shills are losing the battle.

Elvis wrote:I give you major props, Guruilla, for delving as deeply as you have and laying out your findings here. If you have a good "but what about—?" that I've missed, then I'm completely open to tempering my view. (Do I admit?—I wanted it all to be true).

Thanks Elvis, and thanks for addressing this in an open way. Friendly challenges (as opposed to snark-attacks, which are all-too-easy to provoke at RI) are invaluable as opportunities for examining this subject. Out of personal curiosity, why do you think you wanted it to be true?

liminalOyster wrote:As the Voat sub now seems to be serving as a curious admixture of honeypot, deviant thought aggregator, disinfo machine, and the odd flash of anti-semitism/fascism etc, I wanted to see what others thought.

Hi LimOy. Voat sub has indeed deteriorated rapidly, probably due to the flood of Brock-bots precipitating an exodus of serious researchers to a safer zone.

Heaven Swan wrote:What has disturbed me the most about PG is fear that it will cause serous credibility problems for survivors and their allies.

I know Project Willow has expressed this concern also, but I haven't quite seen the logic of it. If PG was proven to be 100% fake, possibly, but that's not likely to happen. Nothing hurt the credibility of survivors more than the McMartin case and the whole Satanic Panic/Witch-Hunt counter-narrative; but this latter only emerged as a defense against the increased awareness of the reality of the claims. This derailing process, as I discussed recently while reviewing Cheit Witch-Hunt narrative, was probably initiated by the perpetrators themselves, both in terms of how they enacted their crimes (incredible/fantastic elements) and in terms of infiltrating the investigations and steering it towards more extreme interpretations and hysterical moralizing.

The same thing may be occurring with #Pizzagate, tho the key difference is that here there are no victim testimonies, and the spark that has ignited this fire is qualitatively different, and a lot easier to dismiss.

Heaven Swan wrote:BTW Thanks for the new thread Guruilla.

I just wanted to do the poll, but in light of how the other thread has turned into a lounge chat for Tarot -readers & Capra-lovers, maybe this was well-timed?

For future archivists, an on-and-off 80+ page discussion of Pizzagate here.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby 82_28 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:21 pm

One thing to bear in mind and I do not know how much this actually matters, but overhead for pizza is really low. I worked for a pizza joint for around 6 years and I think they were laundering money. Nothing was kept track of, no inventory taken and no registers (we worked only with cash). So anything is possible. I think this is 90% bullshit, but anything is possible.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Nordic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:25 pm

Comet Ping pong may not have any basements (or the Alamo) but I have been creeped out since day 1 of this by the immediate proximity of the other businesses. Especially "Bucks Fishing and Camping". This is pure speculation but it's just creepy that these places are all owned and used by the same people, as some sort of front-network. Because let's face it, at the very least these places are a front, or a tax shelter, or money laundering place. There is absolutely no reason for one of the most powerful people in DC to have a strip mall pizza restaurant and even less for his cronies to have 2 or 3 other weird businesses right next to it. Who knows what goes on in these other places after hours.

"Buck's". Gives me the willies for some reason. Fishing and camping. Knives and fishing rods and sleeping bags you can pull up around people's necks. Just my intuition gives me the creeps about this. Also nobody ever talks about it which gives me pause. Why is it invisible in all these stories?
Last edited by Nordic on Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:27 pm

82_28 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:21 pm wrote:One thing to bear in mind and I do not know how much this actually matters, but overhead for pizza is really low. I worked for a pizza joint for around 6 years and I think they were laundering money. Nothing was kept track of, no inventory taken and no registers (we worked only with cash). So anything is possible. I think this is 90% bullshit, but anything is possible.



I thought it was common knowledge about drugs/money and pizza places :)
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Elvis » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:13 pm

Guruilla, it might take me some time to get to all of your questions & responses. I'm way behind in daily-bread type work and honestly am a little burned out on studying at PG and I've learned my limits; I spent all of 2003, full-time, studying 9/11 and one day I just rubbed my eyes and had to stop. I knew by then there was inside work, but I was never going to completely answer all the questions or find a smoking gun. But I'll try to address the points you bring up in your reply.

For now,

guruilla wrote:Out of personal curiosity, why do you think you wanted it to be true?


Because I hoped that a high-level pedo ring would finally be exposed and prosecuted.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby guruilla » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:55 pm

Question for those posters who consider #Pizzagate 90% bullshit or "mostly debunked": how do you view the widespread censorship of PG-related investigations/theories on the Net, at reddit, Facebook, YouTube, & elsewhere, that began even before the "shooting' incident at CPP?

Because of the Streisand Effect, these efforts are mostly just fanning the flames of #Pizzagate. Is this intentional (part of the "Psyop), or is a backfire? & if the latter, why the unprecedented clampdown?

A reader sent me this link, which seems interesting from a couple of different angles; it's from a personal blog & I haven't verified the info yet:

So how far back can we trace the embedded codes and clandestine language fingerprints of this network? Let’s drop down and pick a starting place with the name Herman Cain. Once upon a time (circa 1984) a flaming black Republican pedophile named Larry King ripped off $40 million from the Franklin Federal Credit Union while simultaneously being involved in ferrying underage boys and girls, with help from pals like Craig Spence on Rock Creek Park’s Embassy Row, all around the country and even straight into the White House for the after-hours enjoyment of other pals like George H.W. Bush, then VP and soon to be President. King’s other really good best friend, Herman Cain (a candidate for the Republican 2012 Presidential nomination btw) just so happened, at this exact same time, to buy out, from Pilsbury, for $40 million, the chain of Godfather’s – wait for it -- pizza restaurants. More code.

Are we sensing a trend yet? Right now, we may lack the hard data to support any theory, but the circumstantial evidence is massive, hugely incriminating and OVERWHELMING. In the extreme. And entirely sufficient for any law enforcement agency or investigative panel to issue subpoenas and search warrants on multiple persons and locations to gather that data and forensic evidence.

A commenter on Jeff Wells’ brilliant Rigorous Intuition site had this to say, in 2005 mind you: “You are on to it, Jeff. On two occasions when the RA (ritual abuse) perps have abducted my friend, I’ve had the joy of reading the text messages that they send me from her phone. Beyond the gloating and the grisly details, they constantly make references to being ‘Gods.’ One memorable text message read: ‘We are too strong. We are like Gods. You can never stop us.’ These men are drunk with the fact of their impunity. It is the rigour of democracy itself that forms the landscape for the crime, and the perpetrators gorge on their impunity before the law.

Please tell me what exactly has changed with the advent of almost 12 long years now? Pizzagate merely underscores the darkness and dire tones of the situation we’ve found ourselves surrounded by for a long, long time.

Peter Levenda on facebook Dec.7: “If you truly believe in any of this despite all evidence to the contrary,” (uh, what “evidence” would that be Mr. Summa Cum Laude of the intelligentsia set, that “evidence” bloviated into existence by the hot-air defensive ramblings of you, Colbert, and Jake Tapper?) He then suggests (get this) if all of us investigating Pizzagate aren’t just posturing and if we truly care about the children, then we all should send a donation to UNICEF. Freaking spare me, OK?

That would be the UNICEF that in 2013 pushed for the widespread sexualization of children, when they made a broad interpretation of 2 UN Human Rights treaties to provide “confidential sexual and reproductive health information and services” to children starting at age 10.

That would be the UNICEF that was “deeply shocked” in 1987 when their Belgian director was arrested June 18th of that year for participating in an international pedophile ring which used UNICEF facilities to provide children to wealthy pedophiles. The director, Josef Verbeeck, was just 1 of 12 individuals arrested in connection with the child pornography/procurement ring.
“According to Belgian police, the ring spans at least 16 countries, where investigations are now beginning. As shocking as this news may be on purely moral grounds, what makes the case explosive is the fact that UNICEF’s pedophile activities appear intimately intertwined with intelligence operations.” (from Executive Intelligence Review, Vol.14, No.27, Jul.3, 1987.)

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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby divideandconquer » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:11 pm

Nordic » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:25 pm wrote:Comet Ping pong may not have any basements (or the Alamo) but I have been creeped out since day 1 of this by the immediate proximity of the other businesses. Especially "Bucks Fishing and Camping". This is pure speculation but it's just creepy that these places are all owned and used by the same people, as some sort of front-network. Because let's face it, at the very least these places are a front, or a tax shelter, or money laundering place. There is absolutely no reason for one of the most powerful people in DC to have a strip mall pizza restaurant and even less for his cronies to have 2 or 3 other weird businesses right next to it. Who knows what goes on in these other places after hours.

"Buck's". Gives me the willies for some reason. Fishing and camping. Knives and fishing rods and sleeping bags you can pull up around people's necks. Just my intuition gives me the creeps about this. Also nobody ever talks about it which gives me pause. Why is it invisible in all these stories?


For me, what's not being discussed; what' not being asked; what's not being investigated, not to mention, the constant use of logical fallacies to convince, distract, confuse, bamboozle, etc is more incriminating than anything else...the elephant in the room, so to speak.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:24 pm

There is absolutely no reason for one of the most powerful people in DC to have a strip mall pizza restaurant


What in the fuck are you even talking about, though have some semblance of perspective on what you're saying.

5037 Connecticut Ave NW isn't a "strip mall," man. The internet exists, the fact you've never been to DC shouldn't be a handicap here.
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Re: What is #Pizzagate?

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:00 pm

I found another clue guys -

Image

How can anyone deny the true meaning behind this?
Is that not a pedophilic symbol?
Just take a look at their website -
http://baldforbucks.org/
This illness is literally institutionalized.
Have a look at their instagram, if you can stomach it.
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