The Keepers

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

The Keepers

Postby Project Willow » Mon May 22, 2017 2:11 pm

This documentary series is a must watch on Netflix.

It's an accurate portrayal and vindication of dissociated memory. It exposes a trafficking network linked between powerful institutions, how silence is fostered and maintained, and more. In one episode, there is a brilliant take down of false memory advocate Paul McHugh.

I was shaking my head wondering how the series came into being given its careful but dangerous exploration of institutional betrayal and its stance on recovered memory, but then I read that the filmmaker has a familial relationship with the central survivor/witness, and it made more sense.

The ring operated and the murder occurred not far from Fort Meade and a number of other spook and military installations. In one brief segment, victims recount that the priest who raped them was also a psychologist, and had hypnotized them. The main witness, in speaking to her inability to recall the face of one of the most brutal rapists and a man she claims confessed to being directly involved in the nun's murder, remarked that her dissociation seemed "intentional".

User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: The Keepers

Postby elfismiles » Mon May 22, 2017 2:29 pm

Thanks for the push on this ... just started seeing the ads for it and wondered about its quality.

- SMiles
User avatar
elfismiles
 
Posts: 8511
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:46 pm
Blog: View Blog (4)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed May 24, 2017 2:36 pm

Thanks, Willow. I'm familiar with the story and pretty surprised by this series actually including details like the rapist priest who hypnotized his victims before raping them.

This will stimulate interest and should prompt further inquiry.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Project Willow » Fri May 26, 2017 3:38 am

Quotes from the series.

"Some things we experience are so unbearable and so painful, that we shut them out. The major systems for protection of the self, the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal fight flight response, the vagal response, to play dead, to dissociate, to be unaware of something, they’ll come right into play, in order to protect the self from harm. -L.M. Lothstein, PhD, Yale University.

"We heard from more than one person that there were other people brought in who performed sexual acts and rape on these girls, at the behest of Maskell, or certainly with his permission, and in his presence. There were police officers, there were other clergy members, there were local business owners, there were politicians who were all part of this network." -Lawyer for Jane Doe (Jean Wehner) in the civil suit against the Baltimore Archdiocese.

"I have very extensive amnesia…" -Anon response to abuse inquiry.
User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Cordelia » Sat May 27, 2017 2:11 pm

Yesterday a friend highly recommended seeing this. I tried to add it to my ‘save’ list on Netflix for when it becomes available to their dvd customers, but they’re not even listing it for future viewing as a dvd. :mad2

Haven't read it yet, but here's a link I just found to a V.F article on the crime & documentary.......
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/201 ... true-crime
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Laodicean » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:55 pm

'The Keepers' continues to shine light on alleged abuse at Baltimore school

More victims reaching out to attorneys, police

BALTIMORE —
The Netflix documentary series “The Keepers” focuses on a murder mystery and years of molestation at a Baltimore high school.

The series has helped to bring more victims to light. “The Keepers” is giving people the courage to speak up after suffering in silence. People who once thought they were the only one now know they are not alone.

“The Keepers” focuses on the unsolved death of popular Archbishop Keough High School teacher Sister Cathy Cesnick. She was found dead in a Landsowne dump in 1970, months after she disappeared.

The Netflix series talks to women who say two school priests, Jospeh Maskell and Neil Magnus, abused them. They said Cesnik disappeared as she was close to discovering who was responsible for the abuse.

Joanne Suder is an attorney representing the Keough students who allegedly were abused by the two men. She said 12 more Keough victims have reached out to her since the series hit the air, and they tell a similar story.

“They said they were sexually abused by Maskell and Magnus. Magnus was a pretty bad guy at that school, too,” Suder, who is not featured on the series, said. “There's no question about that. Many they abused together in the school in Maskell's office.”

For every person who comes forward, there are nine others who don't, Suder said.

Suder said the series has given people the courage to talk about what happened to them.

“Because of the airing of ‘The Keepers,’ we found that many more young ladies have come forward and called The Suder Law Firm, believing, before the airing of ‘The Keepers,’ that they were the only victim,” Suder said.

Suder estimates more than 100 girls may have been abused by Maskell and Magnus between the mid-1960s and 1975. And they are hearing from more. She encourages people who know something to come forward. Maskell appears on the archdiocese list of clergy accused of sex abuse.

“We will help them,” Suder said. “Some people, we need to put them in touch with the police. Anybody who has some information might not think it is important, but we do.”

Baltimore police said eight people have reached out to them about possible abuse.

Suder said the statute of limitations has passed for most of the alleged victims to prosecute, but there is a legal process of mediation that can take place between lawyers and the church before a non-Catholic retired judge.


http://www.wbaltv.com/article/the-keepe ... ol/9969460
User avatar
Laodicean
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (16)

Re: The Keepers

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:47 pm

I hope it isn't a hurtful thing to say, but watching the documentary (up past episode 5 so far) left me slightly less convinced of the case against Maskell than reading a longform article on these events did several years ago. It might just be because people like Billy and Edgar were footnotes as suspects in the article, but assumed centre stage in the doc.

I don't know how to put it. When reading the article, the mentions (albeit brief) of hypnosis, amnesia, psychology degrees, institutional abuse, and institutional cover-up, stood out like beacons. It seemed to just vibrate with MK implications, given the era and the scene and the character of Maskell, no doubt without the author intending any such thing.

The documentary didn't have that same informational impact for me, probably just because it was all a lot more diffused.

But purely as a vindication of the reality of recovered memory, I can see it's power.

I have seen a lot of people (on Reddit, god help me) saying that they felt Jeanie's testimony was true - Maskell did abuse her, repeatedly and severely - but also saying that they still didn't find her accounts entirely convincing overall, especially when it came to the recalled speech of others. I have to admit I felt the same way. This is despite the fact that I know from the EAR/ONS case (and others) that the recalled speech of a verified offender in a verified event of sexual offending can sound extremely stilted, unnatural, or unlikely when recalled by a victim.

I had trouble believing some of it. But I believe that it is all true. I guess, in that sense, I am close to being the mainstream audience for this doc, and it is doing it's job.


I also wondered, with Edgar telling his wife that he could murder her and then easily convince himself that he hadn't done it, if he maybe had some accquaintance already with hypnosis and disossciative states. I could easily see someone like Maskell selling his superpowers to the guys as an empowering thing in some kind of social club setting - "you can do whatever you want, and never regret it, just let me teach you the tricks" - while simultaneously using it with the girls as a blatant tool of control and coercion. He knew psychology.
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
User avatar
AhabsOtherLeg
 
Posts: 3285
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:43 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby waugs » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:51 pm

My wife and I binge-watched it over the weekend. Really excellent series.
User avatar
waugs
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Project Willow » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:44 am

Hi! :wave: Hope all is well with you.


AhabsOtherLeg » 08 Jun 2017 19:47 wrote:I hope it isn't a hurtful thing to say, but watching the documentary (up past episode 5 so far) left me slightly less convinced of the case against Maskell than reading a longform article on these events did several years ago. It might just be because people like Billy and Edgar were footnotes as suspects in the article, but assumed centre stage in the doc.

I don't know how to put it. When reading the article, the mentions (albeit brief) of hypnosis, amnesia, psychology degrees, institutional abuse, and institutional cover-up, stood out like beacons. It seemed to just vibrate with MK implications, given the era and the scene and the character of Maskell, no doubt without the author intending any such thing.

The documentary didn't have that same informational impact for me, probably just because it was all a lot more diffused.

But purely as a vindication of the reality of recovered memory, I can see it's power.

I have seen a lot of people (on Reddit, god help me) saying that they felt Jeanie's testimony was true - Maskell did abuse her, repeatedly and severely - but also saying that they still didn't find her accounts entirely convincing overall, especially when it came to the recalled speech of others. I have to admit I felt the same way. This is despite the fact that I know from the EAR/ONS case (and others) that the recalled speech of a verified offender in a verified event of sexual offending can sound extremely stilted, unnatural, or unlikely when recalled by a victim.

I had trouble believing some of it. But I believe that it is all true. I guess, in that sense, I am close to being the mainstream audience for this doc, and it is doing it's job.


I also wondered, with Edgar telling his wife that he could murder her and then easily convince himself that he hadn't done it, if he maybe had some accquaintance already with hypnosis and disossciative states. I could easily see someone like Maskell selling his superpowers to the guys as an empowering thing in some kind of social club setting - "you can do whatever you want, and never regret it, just let me teach you the tricks" - while simultaneously using it with the girls as a blatant tool of control and coercion. He knew psychology.


Yes, the FMS trolls have been out in force on reddit. It's not surprising as that site is regularly astroturfed and bot manipulated, and is host to a community of pedophiles and sympathizers.

I have no doubt Maskell was involved in an MC experimentation ring. What kind exactly and who the governing agency was, I don't know. Some of the amateur investigators believe this as well (I am told), but this aspect is a third rail and can't be explored publicly without unimpeachable evidence. Maskell's project appears less formal and complex, and his cohort arguably more sloppy, than my own perpetrator ring at the time. The records he buried in the cemetery are key. I've only been able to find blurry screenshots of them. Why did he bury them rather than turning them over to whomever was running the op? Were they duplicates? Was he ordered to destroy them and then did a sloppy job of it? Who knows.

Edgar appears dissociative himself, which would explain a great deal of his behavior, in the interview and as described by his wife. By the time Sister Cathy was murdered, we'd already had two, perhaps three, hypno-killer/patsy assassinations of major public figures, so there's no stretch there at all. Perhaps the doc who worked with William Pepper on the Sirhan case could interview Edgar.
User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: The Keepers

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:14 am

Project Willow » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:44 am wrote:Hi! :wave: Hope all is well with you.


Hiya Willow, I am fine, hope you're doing good too. You might have heard that the institutional abuse inquiry in the UK has taken a predictably dire turn though, with the victims understandably losing confidence in the process and walking out on it (much like the three previous chairpersons and several lawyers have done already), having grown sick of being mucked around consistently by the authorities much like the victims in the Keepers case.

That was always the plan on the part of the authorities in my opinion. Theresa May appointed three separate uniquely unqualified and problematic individuals to head up the inquiry, all of them with clear conflicts of interest (or not-widely-known histories of attempting to cover up abuse) in their backgrounds. One could be accidental, two looks careless, three is enemy action...

But that's a topic for another time and another thread.

Yes, the FMS trolls have been out in force on reddit.


Aye, I saw them. I'm far from being an expert on these matters, but if those people think they are being subtle and convincing, they are wrong. It's funny how they always claim to be lawyers (at the least), or Public Defenders who only ever represent people falsely accused of sexual abuse, yet they seem to have a noticeably shallow knowledge of the law in their own country.

The records he buried in the cemetery are key.


Absolutely, and I wish the doc had spent more time on that rather than more tenuous things like the wedding gift necklace. As much as I think this documentary is essential viewing, it let some very obvious questions go unexplored, which was frustrating. The District Attorney's ability to remember the exact car she drove to the exhumation scene in, contrasted with her inability to remember if the files contained any pictures of children, was bizarre. What would be more memorable to a person? There were three van-loads of material, which were hastily buried in an abandoned graveyard by a priest (but not so hastily that he couldn't get someone else to dig the hole for him - a hole so big that it required a mechanical digger). If there was one thing I'd remember clearly from my DA career, in her position, it would be the content of those files.

And how could the files possibly be lost in their entirety after being taken into evidence?

Oh... Like this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ly-deleted

And how arrogant was Maskell? Getting a victim to type them up for him! I know it was the Sixties, and tough guys didn't type, but Jesus. He must've known he was absolutely bulletproof to even think of doing that. And his selected typist suffered from amnesia and blackouts too...

It's horrific.

Btw, in spite of what I was saying about Jeanie's testimony in my earlier post, it's always worth re-stating that she never sought publicity, never joined or posted on the victim's FB group, seeks to recover her memories in her own way to avoid contamination, and there are around 100 other victims as well. It is also obviously not her job or her duty to convince me of anything.

Was he ordered to destroy them and then did a sloppy job of it?


The "DeepThroat" ex-police guy said a paedophile is unable to permanently dispose of his stash no matter the consequences, which rings true (though I'm not sure of the guy's reliability at this distance, of course). But surely if Maskell was being run from above there would've been some sort of enforcement?

If they are genuinely interested in mindcontrol to the extent they seem to be, though, I suppose those documents would have some kind of real value to them - they were probably far more valuable to the overall operation than Maskell himself. Also, Maskell must've been certain that the gardener/digger/caretaker would never talk. Even as a Catholic I never experienced anything like the kind of social and institutional hegemony that seems to have existed in Baltimore at that time (which I found fascinating - if I ever show the doc to my Mum I'll probably start her on episode 2 for that reason).

Edgar appears dissociative himself, which would explain a great deal of his behavior, in the interview and as described by his wife. By the time Sister Cathy was murdered, we'd already had two, perhaps three, hypno-killer/patsy assassinations of major public figures, so there's no stretch there at all. Perhaps the doc who worked with William Pepper on the Sirhan case could interview Edgar.


Like I said, I've only watched up to episode 5, so I haven't seen the Edgar interview yet. Still waiting for someone to upload it to my source - Netflix aint it. Have read about it though, and everybody seems to agree that he is either very ill or dissociative as you say. When i mentioned Maskell possibly "selling" hypnosis to these guys earlier, I don't think I got my point across well. What if he sold it to the conflicted and rejected Billy Schmidt as some kind of "gay cure"? And to Edgar as... I don't know... either an empowerment of his sociopathy, or a cure for it. Then he got his hooks in and turned them to his own purpose.

Did Billy Schmidt's obsession with the nun (and the weird...visualization aid...in the attic) pre-date the murder? The doc didn't make it clear enough. There were a lot of things that the doc didn't make clear enough.

I'm going on way too long here, but my last point would be that on the night when Maskell and Magnus apparently turned up at Sister Cathy's apartment, Maskell was described as being furious - which you'd expect from a psychopath under threat. But Magnus was described as being "dumb." He doesn't look like a dumb man to me, he was a teacher in a once-reputable school - did Maskell have some kind of mental control over him too?

The doc never went back to this incident of the two main abusers appearing angrily at the victim's house, which is surely of huge import to the murder investigation regardless of any MK or MC implications it might have.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
User avatar
AhabsOtherLeg
 
Posts: 3285
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:43 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:11 am

I hope i didn't kill this thread. For all my criticisms of the documentary, which I still haven't seen all the way through yet (even pirates are unreliable these days), it is essential viewing and should be discussed freely. I won't post any more here, and will stop sticking an electron microscope on every aspect of everything.

The Keepers reminded me, a tiny bit, of an older Scottish-made documentary about Dr. Ewen Cameron - "Memory Thief".

A poor-quality version of it is up on Youtube. It is not in the same league in terms of production values or grippingness, but could be a useful companion piece for average folk who become interested in the theme of trauma- and drug-induced memory loss explored in The Keepers (especially those who doubt the likelihood of it, or doubt that government agencies could be complicit in such acts).

It's proven beyond all doubt that they were.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
User avatar
AhabsOtherLeg
 
Posts: 3285
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:43 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:07 am

I finally broke down and got a free Netflix subscription to watch this and boy was it worth it.

I expected a horrific, possibly triggering but enlightening watch but instead found the element of vindication of these brave survivors and their allies extremely comforting and inspiring.

Jeannie and co tried to bring the priest abuse to light in the '90's only to be blocked and covered up by complicit officials and FMS flacks, but are vindicated by this very convincing and widely watched film.

I love how it interviews so many people involved in the cover-up and unmasks the many levels of complicity and support for the perpetrators and shines a light on the inner workings and structure of the patriarchy.



BTW I have to thank RI posters for their movie and TV recommendations, especially for "the Keepers" and "Line of Duty" which is definitly my favorite TV series ever (I'm on my third viewing of it).
"When IT reigns, I’m poor.” Mario
User avatar
Heaven Swan
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby bks » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:06 pm

Will make time for this series over the weekend. Appreciate the reviews.
bks
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Project Willow » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:26 pm

I am resurfacing to post an update on this case.

I think my attempts to share on social media have undergone some sort of shadow banning process. I can't seem to get people outside of the group that follows a Keepers podcast series to pay attention. I've contacted journalists and researchers usually interested in these issues and there is nada so far. The main Keepers group on facebook has over a 100,000 members. It is run by Netflix. In some odd coincidence of timing it has virtually shut down the last month, so there's no reaching that audience either.

So, what am I talking about and why is it a big deal? Well, I thought that finally obtaining corroborative evidence of CIA child torture connected to a well known murder case was a big deal. I don't know? Maybe it's just a big deal to me?

What I didn't mention in 2017 was that I have a connection to The Keepers case. I wasn't prepared, and I didn't think it safe to mention details, especially if I were to be interviewed by LE, which took place this spring. Since then, Gemma Hoskins' (featured with classmate Abbie in the documentary) continued investigation uncovered corroborative evidence of what I witnessed in the torture labs. It's really quite extraordinary.

If you're interested in hearing about my connection to the case, Gemma and her podcast partner Shane Waters interviewed me last month. *Warning*, it is not easy listening.

Interview Part 1: https://www.shadowspod.com/shadowspod/episode/26cf0f52/sister-cathy-part-321-mkultra-survivor-part-1
Interview Part 2: https://www.shadowspod.com/shadowspod/episode/2403a315/sister-cathy-part-323-mkultra-survivor-part-2
User avatar
Project Willow
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Seattle
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: The Keepers

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:38 pm

Thank you, Lynne. Be well and stay safe. It's late now, so I'll listen to the podcasts tomorrow.
Last edited by Iamwhomiam on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests