Artists & Preservationists Debate the Rush to Topple Statues

[Iamwhomiam]

^^^^

[brekin]

What's accomplished by removing statues? It's a token gesture, imho, that doesn't change the historical landscape they were part of. But If they are removed, what about their other depictions, like in paintings? The Smithsonian's 'National Portrait Gallery' displays, for the viewing public, portraits of Confederate Generals, such as......
Robert E. Lee
Stonewall Jackson
Take them out of their galleries? Remove them from their collection? Where do the gestures end?

Tricky situation. I learn towards more that they shouldn't be removed, unless the local communities, or rather states vote them out. As the southern states still have the highest population per capita of African-Americans this shouldn't be too hard. If anything, they showcase how some/much of US history was built on a competing racist ideology. Something one would think progressive people wouldn't want forgotten.
I do think, though, additional statues of freed slaves, abolitionists, Southern victims of war (N and S), etc. should be erected along side them or in their stead.
Tearing them down as symbols of oppression just hides the oppression which was widespread and entrenched as a cultural and economic norm. What is needed is contextualization of them as a reminder and warning. While they can't be reformed symbolically they can I think be refashioned in a greater narrative symbolically.
Granted many were erected as celebratory/defiant monuments - but having a bunch of rich, crypto-racists buying them up and putting them in their own private Confederacy parks doesn't seem the way to go as they can rightfully claim the government is erasing and dishonoring their ancestors historical contribution to the country (albeit the contrib was probably trying to defy-destroy it). But the opportunity is lost for the civic community to control these emblems. Having them pass into holy relics for the private, underground racist religion of southern white supremacy would only make them more potent - not less.

IMHO, destroying and removing historical monuments stems from a intolerance and the unwillingness to accept the past as bad and evil as it is - because we like to fancy we aren't like those bogeys from the distant past.
I don't think there can be any healing without confrontation and acceptance of the crimes of the past though.
And honestly, the majority of statues to most figures are militaristic/murderous in some fashion - even politicians/religious figures maintain-expand their power through military conquest - and so much statuary deals with someone directly or indirectly with a lot of blood on their hands.
But building a future on a program of destroying-denying the past never turns out well.
Integrating the past, as difficult and messy as it is, is a creative opportunity.

[Iamwhomiam]

So, let's put Lee in blackface would make everything alright?

Putting such offensive works in museums isn't denying our history, brekin. They are the places we choose to preserve and go to in order to remember our history. Yes, there are books enough to tell the story, for those so interested. No one's seeking to deny history but those who cannot see the harm in continuing to display "great" figures of oppression to a large percentage of our population.

Why not in a museum hall dedicated to racist heroes of Civil War? Might not draw too many blacks, but damn, would ever sell tickets to the good old boys seeking the glory of days gone-by!

I've repeatedly asked, but none have answered, why we should bestow such an honor to traitors to our nation & constitution? Hell, no one;'Brilliant leader in the Revolutionary War and traitor to the newly formed union of states, was given the boot.


None who fought for the rebellious Confederacy during the Civil War deserve even that, in my bold opinion.

[Karmamatterz]

When does it all end? At one point are the injustices "fixed?" I daresay they never will be. One can find fault for "injustices" hundreds of years later. For example, Christopher Columbus being protested in Detroit:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m ... 583189001/

It's popular now to do these things. Why wasn't it years ago? Where was the narrative to go after the racists in the past? How far do you go to expunge all remnants?





Perhaps the person who painted the graffiti could do some reading to find out what Andrew Jackson did to the native americans, particularly the Cherokee.

Why on Earth is the pop culture current narrative not including the removal any the ugly stains against the natives? A statue of Custer for crying out loud? That doesn't outrage anybody? Perhaps the current narrative is not inclusive enough of people who have studied history? Maybe it's just trendy now to go after confederate soldiers? But really, who cares about the men, women and children that Custer murdered? I mean, they were just Native Americans right? They weren't really citizens who could be called traitors. Since the it's popular now to toss around the word traitor should we consider the natives that Custer butchered traitors? Dissenters? Poor schmucks who got screwed and killed? Wrong place at the wrong time? Bad luck?

I say do it right or don't do it at all. One would think if the icons of racism and genocide need to be removed then why aren't the Native Americans included? I've seen small handfuls of people over the years protest outside the Cleveland Indians baseball stadium against the Indians logo. Same for the Washington Redskins etc...etc... Going with the current narrative Isn't the acceptance of these icons being used perpetuate racism?

[seemslikeadream]

just make 'em too big to topple




Puerto Rico went forward with the statue, despite a petition by the United Confederation of Taino People to stop its installation, arguing that “Columbus is a symbol of Genocide, not a hero to be celebrated.”






same artist that did this 9/11 memorial

[brekin]

So, let's put Lee in blackface would make everything alright?
Putting such offensive works in museums isn't denying our history, brekin. They are the places we choose to preserve and go to in order to remember our history. Yes, there are books enough to tell the story, for those so interested. No one's seeking to deny history but those who cannot see the harm in continuing to display "great" figures of oppression to a large percentage of our population.
Why not in a museum hall dedicated to racist heroes of Civil War? Might not draw too many blacks, but damn, would ever sell tickets to the good old boys seeking the glory of days gone-by!
I've repeatedly asked, but none have answered, why we should bestow such an honor to traitors to our nation & constitution? Hell, no one;'Brilliant leader in the Revolutionary War and traitor to the newly formed union of states, was given the boot.
None who fought for the rebellious Confederacy during the Civil War deserve even that, in my bold opinion.

Well, I think putting blackface on Lee would probably offend everyone - not sure the point in that.
And I hardly see those calling for removal/actually tearing down/defacing the statues to have them put in museums instead. (Although, lets be honest that would be a good place to hide them with museum attendance continuing to drop.) Removing from public view and/or destroying historical landmarks/monuments is denying history - seems pretty straight to me. Handing out Ken Burns dvd's instead doesn't seem like the same thing to me. Having a statue of a historical figure or event does not have commemorate it (although I get some can choose to do so, and currently many seem it as a positive heritage thing) but it's like Auschwitz, some would argue that it should be bulldozed as a symbol of oppression - but that goes against the "never forget" ethos and can actually feed into Holocaust apologists/minimizers/deniers.

As the great majority of those who fought for the Confederacy were not slave owners- and the great majority of battles took place on Southern land, many were resisting an invading army. Yes, slavery needed to go and supporting it was indefensible - but I hardly think one can write off with one sweep of ones soft, pink uncalloused hand - all those who fought and died for the Confederacy as "traitors to our nation & constitution" when many were swept up in a question of states rights vs. federal rights and most assumed it would be settled politically and/or militarily in a few weeks. History is never so simple except in history class - and this is coming from an unrepentant Yankee who thinks Grant was too lenient in many ways with the defeated Confederacy. As this nations biggest war with the most casualties it is a bit simple to just decide its time to hide all the Civil War Confederate bric or brac and rely on Django Unchained as the historical lodestone instead. Every community, every person, has their equivalent of "Confederates in the Attic" - grabbing historical objects and forcing them down the memory hole - is a form of mass repression and an unwillingness to dialogue about what to do with "them" - and can only encourage the madness that helped foster the dehumanization which beget slavery, and the civil war in the first place.

When does it all end? At one point are the injustices "fixed?" I daresay they never will be. One can find fault for "injustices" hundreds of years later. For example, Christopher Columbus being protested in Detroit:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m ... 583189001/
It's popular now to do these things. Why wasn't it years ago? Where was the narrative to go after the racists in the past? How far do you go to expunge all remnants?

Perhaps the person who painted the graffiti could do some reading to find out what Andrew Jackson did to the native americans, particularly the Cherokee. Why on Earth is the pop culture current narrative not including the removal any the ugly stains against the natives? A statue of Custer for crying out loud? That doesn't outrage anybody? Perhaps the current narrative is not inclusive enough of people who have studied history? Maybe it's just trendy now to go after confederate soldiers? But really, who cares about the men, women and children that Custer murdered? I mean, they were just Native Americans right? They weren't really citizens who could be called traitors. Since the it's popular now to toss around the word traitor should we consider the natives that Custer butchered traitors? Dissenters? Poor schmucks who got screwed and killed? Wrong place at the wrong time? Bad luck?
I say do it right or don't do it at all. One would think if the icons of racism and genocide need to be removed then why aren't the Native Americans included? I've seen small handfuls of people over the years protest outside the Cleveland Indians baseball stadium against the Indians logo. Same for the Washington Redskins etc...etc... Going with the current narrative Isn't the acceptance of these icons being used perpetuate racism?

Give it time. The total liquidation of history in the name of progress will take some time. First Civil War Monuments, then Custer, then The Marlboro Man, and so on. (Coincidentally, there isn't a meme yet for "Liberal faux shock and sanctimonious-moaning at not mentioning Native Americans when talking about the oppression of certain groups.")

[Cordelia]

When does it all end? At one point are the injustices "fixed?" I daresay they never will be. One can find fault for "injustices" hundreds of years later. For example, Christopher Columbus being protested in Detroit:
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/m ... 583189001/

It's popular now to do these things. Why wasn't it years ago? Where was the narrative to go after the racists in the past? How far do you go to expunge all remnants?





Perhaps the person who painted the graffiti could do some reading to find out what Andrew Jackson did to the native americans, particularly the Cherokee.

Why on Earth is the pop culture current narrative not including the removal any the ugly stains against the natives? A statue of Custer for crying out loud? That doesn't outrage anybody? Perhaps the current narrative is not inclusive enough of people who have studied history? Maybe it's just trendy now to go after confederate soldiers? But really, who cares about the men, women and children that Custer murdered? I mean, they were just Native Americans right? They weren't really citizens who could be called traitors. Since the it's popular now to toss around the word traitor should we consider the natives that Custer butchered traitors? Dissenters? Poor schmucks who got screwed and killed? Wrong place at the wrong time? Bad luck?

I say do it right or don't do it at all. One would think if the icons of racism and genocide need to be removed then why aren't the Native Americans included? I've seen small handfuls of people over the years protest outside the Cleveland Indians baseball stadium against the Indians logo. Same for the Washington Redskins etc...etc... Going with the current narrative Isn't the acceptance of these icons being used perpetuate racism?

Thank you for above Karmamatterz. Stolen people to slave on the stolen land on which (many) of us live.

I think liminalOyster wrote about the prison system (on which other thread?) but feel prison 'labor' also be included here too.

I'm not big on any church or preaching, but Ava Muhammad packs a powerful punch in five minutes (From five years ago; I doubt much has changed for the better, but if so, please correct me.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRvJThLQN0

More on what she spoke about:

The Pentagon and Slave Labor in U.S. Prisons | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Prisoners earning 23 cents an hour in U.S. federal prisons are manufacturing high-tech electronic components for Patriot Advanced Capability 3 missiles, launchers for TOW (Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided) anti-tank missiles, and other guided missile systems. A March article by journalist and financial researcher Justin Rohrlich of World in Review is worth a closer look at the full implications of this ominous development. (minyanville.com)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pentag ... sons/25376

Short film/performance piece on the plight of black men and prison:

“In the past 40 years, the United States' prison population has quintupled. Despite accounting for 37 percent of the American population, black people and Hispanics make up 64 percent of the prison population and 75 percent of all inmates in federal penitentiaries. With more prisons than schools, urgent questions arise: Are these facilities really giving prisoners a chance to rehabilitate themselves? Are their living conditions humane? How does our society advance toward attaining equality? Featuring insights from social justice activist and attorney Bryan Stevenson, visual art by Hank Willis Thomas, and movement art by Jon Boogz and Lil Buck, the short film 'AM i A MAN' takes us on a gripping, heartbreaking and critically important journey through the harsh realities of a broken justice system.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwEGMxAWJ-Q
Netflix hasn't released the 2016 documentary 13th on dvd and I can't stream, but it's been recommended here and by others.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk


On prisons and reservations, not on statues, is where outrage belongs, imo.

[Cordelia]

fwiw.......Statues of Confederate leaders on display in the U.S. Capitol:

Why the U.S. Capitol Still Hosts Confederate Monuments

Most were erected decades after the Civil War ended, and they've always been controversial.

National Statuary Hall Collection, Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C.

By Rachel Brown

PUBLISHED August 17, 2017

Monument: The collection includes 100 statues, 12 of which depict Confederate leaders, including Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, and Robert E. Lee. In 1864, a congressional law created the National Statuary Hall as place to commemorate two “illustrious” citizens of each state. Eight states have sent one Confederate statue to the capital; South Carolina and Mississippi are fully represented by Confederates.

Status: Though each state may change out its statues at will, Congress has the final say on what stays. On Wednesday, one senator announced a plan to introduce a bill removing Confederate statues from the Capitol.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017 ... m-history/

[Cordelia]

These pols announced yesterday that shrouding the scoundrels would be their safest way out for the best.

Charlottesville City Council votes to shroud Confederate statues in black

The Charlottesville City Council decided early Tuesday morning to shroud the statues of two Confederate generals in black, capping a long and emotional public meeting that erupted into chaos more than once as residents expressed their anger over a white nationalist rally last weekend.

The vote to cover the statues of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson was unanimous, and was meant to recognize the city’s mourning after a violent demonstration that left one woman dead and scores more injured, according to Paige Rice, clerk of the council. Two police officers were also killed when their helicopter crashed.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/loc ... 419811b2bf

(Hope they leave the horses alone.)

[brekin]

These pols announced yesterday that shrouding the scoundrels would be their safest way out for the best.

Charlottesville City Council votes to shroud Confederate statues in black
The Charlottesville City Council decided early Tuesday morning to shroud the statues of two Confederate generals in black, capping a long and emotional public meeting that erupted into chaos more than once as residents expressed their anger over a white nationalist rally last weekend.
The vote to cover the statues of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson was unanimous, and was meant to recognize the city’s mourning after a violent demonstration that left one woman dead and scores more injured, according to Paige Rice, clerk of the council. Two police officers were also killed when their helicopter crashed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/loc ... 419811b2bf

(Hope they leave the horses alone.)

So, they voted to put a burkha on Robert E. Lee.
Quick, someone write a country song with that line.
It's gold.

Didn't this happen before with Lady Justice?


And so it goes.

[82_28]

Hopefully we have enough mettle to protect these far more intrinsic, inarguable monuments. I suppose though, nevermind -- my bias tells me that those who give the most fucks about these statues don't about wilderness.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -your-land

At a moment of deep political division, few issues draw as much bipartisan support from the American public as the sanctity of public lands. Yet conservative lawmakers have quietly laid the foundation to give away Americans’ birthright: 640m acres of national land.

From Yosemite to the Grand Canyon to the Katahdin woods of Maine, no other country on earth offers the breadth and accessibility of American’s public lands. This shared resource is both an economic powerhouse and a common refuge where Americans come to hike, camp, ski, rock climb, fish and hunt.

This year we have witnessed an unprecedented attack on this national legacy. Between an effort in Congress to sell off millions of acres of public property and the Trump administration’s dubious review of national monuments, this has proven to be the worst government for public lands in American history.

The Republican platform now contains a commitment to give away an unspecified portion of 640m acres of American land to the states. The House of Representatives changed congressional rules this year to make it easy to dispose of public land without having to account for the loss in federal revenue. The small businesses, outdoor enthusiasts and sportsmen and women who have stridently opposed this initiative know that it will result in the loss of public access. Historically, 70% of land given to states from the federal government has been sold to private interests. Once transferred, most public land is gone forever.

[Cordelia]

So, they voted to put a burkha on Robert E. Lee.
Quick, someone write a country song with that line.
It's gold.

Didn't this happen before with Lady Justice?


And so it goes.

^^^

[Iamwhomiam]

A shroud placed over the long dead body of a murderous traitor is a good first step; when's the burial?

[barracuda]

Even innocuous bad sculpture is notoriously tough to get rid of, much less this crap. Clear them out as best you can and let some contemporary sculptors make work.

Screen Shot 2017-08-23 at 10.44.45 PM.png

[Cordelia]

Employing the tactic of emotional strategy to an unpopular choice is wise marketing.........

Two Confederate Statues in Charlottesville Covered in Black in Mourning for Heather Heyer.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ro ... er-n795271