Parsons Green Tube Bucket Bomb

[MacCruiskeen]

I'm trying to imagine someone, anyone -- a young Arab-looking guy in particular! -- just depositing that bag in a crowded Tube train at rush-hour and then walking off the train and leaving it there. This after 7/7 and all the recent murderous shenanigans in London and Manchester. It is hard to imagine the other passengers just standing around and doing absolutely nothing about it, There are emergency brakes in every carriage, for a start.

No one has reported that that Lidl bag was left unattended, but then no one has described anyone in charge of it either. All we're offered by the media is irrelevant blather, uplifting yarns, tales of the aftermath, and countless pin-up photos of The Anonymous Pink Angel. Non-Stop Spectacle.

The whole things stinks. No one died, no one suffered serious injury, and yet no one in that carriage saw the bag being being brought onto the train?

Here's a challenge, seriously: Can anyone find any social media profile anywhere for "Sam Flay, 21, London, media guy"? Anything on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or anywhere else? This allegedly-existent eyewitness is the only named person who even saw the bucket or the bag.

It's late here and I have had enough of this farrago. (I perfectly understand if you have, too.) Investigative journalism is stone-dead.

Goodnight.

[mentalgongfu2]

Mac, you're pointing out some clear inconsistencies and important questions - like the fact CCTV should clearly have captured the setup, or at least someone walking with the alleged bucket-bomb or a bag that had said item inside of it. The photogenic woman is curious.
There is a lot of stinky shit in the story.

But your rebuttal of Dr. Evil's comments on crowd panic behavior is just ridiculous, as is your dismissal of the idea the object might have emitted flames that some have described as a "fireball" or "wall of flame." The insistence that you know what panicked people in a crowd 'just would not do' cheapens the very relevant points you bring up. Your claims about how people would behave do not hold up. I almost suffocated once at a Pantera concert when audience members stormed the main floor, and I was pushed up against a metal gate by the surge of the crowd. It is one of a handful of times in my life I have literally feared imminent death. And that was just excited concert-goers, not people panicking because of a suspected bomb.

And your dismissal of the flame claims ignores the facts that (1) there is clearly damage on the inside (mostly) and outside (slightly) of the bucket in the pictures you yourself posted here (2) it's quite easy for a failed explosive device to become incendiary and (3) even real eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable - what one person calls a "fireball" another could easily call a "wall of flame" and another an "explosion." If people did see flames coming out of the bucket, the varying descriptions would be perfectly in line with what one might expect.

It's also perfectly possible to shoot a plume of flame out of an object without causing much visible damage to the object itself, because the force and heat is directed outward. If you disbelieve, there is a trick I can show you that involves a candle, a soda can and a heat source like a campfire. Or you can google it.

All this to say - I agree there are some big red flags in the official story so far. But you do a disservice to that idea when you focus things that are minimal, or just plain incorrect assumptions and/or conclusions. The most-relevant point to me so far is the complete lack of CCTV footage - reminiscent of the way it disappeared in the De Menezes assassination. Even then, the Crown released images of the alleged plotters supposedly from the CCTV footage. It was only the footage of the murder of the misidentified De Menezes that disappeared.

I hope you take this as constructive criticism and not an attack.
But since you're so keen on issuing challenges, here's one for you - seriously, can you give us any info on this alleged Sam Flay and evidence of his existence or non-existence?

[MacCruiskeen]

...
There is a lot of stinky shit in the story.

But your rebuttal of Dr. Evil's comments on crowd panic behavior is just ridiculous, as is your dismissal of the idea the object might have emitted flames that some have described as a "fireball" or "wall of flame." The insistence that you know what panicked people in a crowd 'just would not do' cheapens the very relevant points you bring up. Your claims about how people would behave do not hold up. I almost suffocated once at a Pantera concert when audience members stormed the main floor, and I was pushed up against a metal gate by the surge of the crowd. It is one of a handful of times in my life I have literally feared imminent death. And that was just excited concert-goers, not people panicking because of a suspected bomb. ...

I'm glad you survived, mentalgongfu, sincerely, and thanks for telling your story. But the fact is, it has nothing to do with the topic. It's irrelevant. Your experience of a crowd of aggressive young metalheads storming the stage bears no comparison whatsoever -- none -- to the situation in that small train carriage with its few dozen middle-class commuters, its flip-up seats, and its three sets of wide-open double doors facing a daylit railway platform.

You are also pretty presumptuous. You presume that I, unlike you, have never experienced a frightened and frightening crowd, that I have never been crushed so hard that I feared I would break a limb or suffocate and die. Well, I have experienced that, more than once, both as a child and as a teenager at big football matches in the UK. More times than I can remember, I've been lifted up bodily and carried back and forth by the crush of bodies when the crowd surged after a goal. Often it was exhilarating and a right good laugh -- the bodysurfing/moshpit experience -- but occasionally it turned terrifying, especially if someone fell, or if a fight broke out suddenly nearby and the crowd parted to escape. Crush barriers were few and far between in those days, and they could be bent under sufficient pressure.

For the record: My father and my older brother were at Ibrox stadium in 1971 when 66 men and boys were killed in a stairwell crush after a last-minute goal. Luckily, my dad and brother were at the other end supporting the other team. But we didn't know where the incident had happened when the news started tricking through on the radio, or for a long time afterwards. I will never forget my mother's face, or my own anxiety, while we waited in hope that they would return home alive and intact. (Of course there were no mobile phones in those days). From first hand experience, I knew damn well how dangerous football stadiums could be, especially at big games when tensions were high and at least 80,000 people (nearly all male) were packed, standing, on muddy concrete terraces designed to hold far fewer.



I didn't attend that game myself because I was only 11 and my dad deemed me too young for the, er, special experience of a Celtic-Rangers derby, especially at Mordor Ibrox. But I was at many other big games, including the one depicted here:


ORIGINAL CAPTION: Celtic v Leeds in the semi-final of the European Cup at Hampden in April 1970 - John Hughes beats Jackie Charlton. The attendance of 136,505 remains a record for the competition. Picture: TSPL

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-s ... -1-4450238

Later on, there were the punk and industrial and ska concerts, but I could go on forever so I won't. And also because it`s irrelevant, all of it -- or it would be if you weren't accusing me of being some kind of cloistered armchair theorist, a pocket Proust in a corklined room. I'm not. I have experienced many crowded concerts (in small dives and large halls), many crowded football stadiums, and many crowded Tube carriages, and I also know the difference between an ant and a horse. It is good to know these things, because differences ar not irrelevant and size matters. We all live and learn.


Not a Pantera concert, and not a Scottish football match

__________

Keeping it short now:

Re: "a wall of flame", "a fireball", "a thick yellow gel that filled the carriage", etc., the point is surely obvious: The photographic evidence does not even begin to support those descriptions, least of all when other people just describe a brief flash of light and a wave of heat. Witnesses tend to exaggerate, or to use words loosely and inaccurately, especially when they're excited, confused, or in a state of shock -- and most especially when they're encouraged to do so by some opportunistic media-drone who's desperate for a scoop. So, if the descriptions aren't "sexy" enough, then the hack will happily "help" the witnesses find sexier ones, because sex sells and accuracy is a secondary consideration at best. Mortgages do not pay for themselves, and neither does gin & tonic.

If you're going to insist on arguing about this endlessly, then please do so only if you can present at least one (1) photo that shows smoke- or fire-damage that accords with those excited descriptions. So far I have seen none (in figures: 0). In fact I have only seen photos that refute those descriptions, and I've posted several of them here already.

[mentalgongfu2]

Glad your family was OK, Mac.

I only presumed you had never experienced a frightening and frightened crowd because you write about what a crowd would do as if that were the case. Your entire argument on crowd behavior amounts to "No, people wouldn't do that," which is ridiculous on its face. Numerous scholarly articles exist on the subject, including some focused solely on behavior in a subway environment. But I'll not waste our time, as I'm sure you would discount them as irrelevant before having finished reading the abstract. There is also a wide body of literature about fire and explosions of which you could avail yourself. But again, waste of time. Nor will I go on a scavenger hunt for photos on your behalf, just as I won't research this alleged Sam Flay and evidence of his existence or non-existence on your behalf. It's you who should do such work if you wish to buttress your argument, not merely demand that someone else do the legwork to disprove your premature conclusions.

Carry on. Just like the 9-11 truthers that spent years burying themselves in details of thermite and the melting properties of steel, a focus on such things will merely distract from the anomalies about the official story that can be proven.

[DrEvil]

Look, Dr Evil: Find me just one (1) eyewitness who even remotely suggests that the "panicking" passengers kicked the still-burning bomb about while struggling to find the wide-open doors of the train in broad daylight (!!), and I will bother replying to that very lengthy post. Just one witness will do. Otherwise I refuse to waste my time on these ridiculous hypotheticals. They are all in your own head and nowhere else.

You clearly missed this photo, or else you just chose to ignore it:

That's what the carriage looks like. That's how many doors it has, and how wide they are. That's how sunny the day was. And the doors were open. (Those particular carriages also have flip-up seats, btw, so that means plenty of space to move when no one is sitting. That's why there is not a seat to be seen in that photo.)

PS I also cannot prove that the bomb was not shifted by a sneaky Russian spy or by a passing fox, so let's nip those two options in the bud as well, please. (Poltergeists? Hmmm...)

You obviously missed that only one set of doors are open. Why would they open the sets on the sides and then close them but not the middle set afterwards? The logical conclusion is that only the middle set was opened (it's right there in the picture so it has to be true!), ergo everyone was rushing to get out through one set of doors, which would have created a crush of people as this happened in the morning rush (see: I can create narratives based on a single inconclusive photo too!).

If the device was located somewhere towards either end then it's not a stretch to think it was dragged along with the crowd (and yes, I too have been in crowds where I've feared for my safety, so I know what it's like). You seem to be expecting people to behave rationally when they're panicking, which kind of defeats the purpose of being panicked in the first place.

Speaking of hypotheticals: you're saying that the witnesses are lying, that the woman in pink is an MI5 agent and that no bomb went off because you can't see any scorching in the pictures (and you're obviously an expert in explosives and their behavior, right?). ALL OF THOSE are hypotheticals. You have nothing to back it up except the inside of your head.

But! Let's assume for a moment that this was a manufactured event designed to scare people into going along with the next chapter in SecurityState'R'Us. Why on Earth would they want to have fake witnesses, a potential MI5 agent prancing about and a fake explosive device? That's just a recipe for disaster. Get one patsy or willing agent to carry it onto the train, BOOM!, mission accomplished. All the other things are not necessary and just increase the chances of the plot being uncovered.

As for Sam Flay, the first eight hits on a Google search are social media profiles. Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter and Soundcloud. Have at it.

[MacCruiskeen]

Dr Evil, if it's a battle of wits you want, I refuse to fight with an unarmed man. Your post is a joke, but not a funny one, just a long and pointless waste of time. There's no there there. It is completely content-free, except where the content completely misses the point. All it is, is butthurt needling. For all the sweat you put into signalling condescension, you fail to realise that condescension is only possible from an elevated position. I've taken you seriously and answered you at length already, although your first post was already stupid enough. I won't waste my time on you again. You are, to put it politely, disingenuous. I'm not getting on your roundabout.

Do I exaggerate? In no way. As an example of the quality, here's your parting hit (as painful as a bite from a goldfish):

As for Sam Flay, the first eight hits on a Google search are social media profiles. Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter and Soundcloud. Have at it

I noticed that already last night, you genius. That's why I asked for help, not for flaccid attempts at sarcasm. You do realise that different people sometimes have the same name, no? One Sam Flay is in Uganda, for example, so he's not it. HTH.

Now stop wasting my time and go and watch the news or something. Lap it all up. Have at it.

[MacCruiskeen]

Damn. I inadvertently deleted my long reply to mentalgongfu while trying to quote from it.

WR, is there any way of restoring it? Or mentalgongfu, did you by any chance save it?

[MacCruiskeen]

By the way, I didn't intend posting in this thread at all today unless there had been some significant new develpment, such as CCTV images from the train and /or station, or a report that someone has been charged with planting the bomb.

UPDATE: No CCTV images from the train or the station have been posted, and no one has yet been charged with planting the bomb.

Despite all those eyewitnesses and surveillance cameras, the authorities would appear to be having some peculiar difficulty in identifying the culprit. Strange, that. Or else they are reluctant, for some reason, to show the world what those CCTV images show. Of course, no one could possibility have anticipated these difficulties. We can rest assured they are working on it.

[mentalgongfu2]

Mac, I will admit to being a bit patronising, but that territory is not exclusive in this thread to myself or to Dr. Evil. You have an incredible talent for insulting people who could otherwise be allies in a search for truth about events such as these.

You ask for help in strange ways - by issuing a "challenge" to find social media accounts, then insulting the first person to note there are quite a few out there and say you already knew that. If you actually do want help, perhaps you should share which avenues you've already exhausted and what you would need to determine this person does or doesn't exist. But I am betraying my bias, as I long ago grew tired of your technique of sending people on scavenger hunts in past threads.

Although you replied fairly in part of your response to me, I don't take things like, "I also know the difference between an ant and a horse;" your condescending photo caption "Not a Pantera concert, and not a Scottish football match," to be polite or serious responses on the subject of panicked crowds. Yes, differences matter. Duh. It tends to make me want to return the condescending tone back at you. And your conclusion, "If you're going to insist on arguing about this endlessly, then please do so only if...." TO THE FIRST AND ONLY THING I had posted in this thread, does not seem to welcome discussion or treat anyone as an equal.

You even acknowledge

Witnesses tend to exaggerate, or to use words loosely and inaccurately, especially when they're excited, confused, or in a state of shock -- and most especially when they're encouraged to do so by some opportunistic media-drone who's desperate for a scoop.

Yet continue to suggest that there should be photographic evidence that most likely does not exist because it was not a "fireball," "wall of flame" or "yellow gel," but rather a small amount of fire coming from a failed incendiary device. .

But I do look forward to your photos of the damage from that wall of flame, that yellow gel that filled the carriage, that fireball.

And in your most recent post, you have dropped any pretense of respectful dialogue and built quite a few strawmen of your own.
But I digress. I actually appreciate a lot of what you bring to the RI board and consider you pretty damn smart. But you have a way about you when discussing possible false-flag type operations that probably makes it better that I bow out of this thread given the way I am likely to respond to your dismissive tone. It won't be productive. I will give this thread some room to breathe, and I look forward to seeing all the mind-blowing evidence you post in the coming days to prove an ant is indeed not a horse.


Investigation of the Panic Psychology and Behaviors of Evacuation Crowds in Subway Emergencies
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705816000953

A Sam Flay in the UK who works in media
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-flay-bb309a131/



Actual horse ant
Formica rufa, also known as the red wood ant, southern wood ant, or horse ant, is a boreal member of the Formica rufa group of ants, and is the type species for that group. It is native to Europe and Anatolia[2] but is also found in North America,[3] in both coniferous and broad-leaf broken woodland and parkland.

[MacCruiskeen]

"Hell goes round and round. In shape it is circular and by nature it is interminable, repetitive and very nearly unbearable." - Flann O'Brien

If you're going to insist on arguing about this endlessly, then please do so only if you can present at least one (1) photo that shows smoke- or fire-damage that accords with those excited descriptions. So far I have seen none (in figures: 0). In fact I have only seen photos that refute those descriptions, and I've posted several of them here already.

Please.

"Hell goes round and round. In shape it is circular and by nature it is interminable, repetitive and very nearly unbearable." - Flann O'Brien

[Burnt Hill]

Flammable gels burn without smoke. Used them a lot when I was in the restaurant business,
and you could get them in different colours too.
Probably pretty easy to try and turn a lot of it into a bomb.
And the one picture of that lady shows staining on her bandage which could be indicative of a blistering burn.

[MacCruiskeen]

Progress is a wonderful thing. That handbag and those jackets are made of even stronger stuff than Satam al-Suqami's passport.

They survived wholly intact and completely unsinged, despite being at the very epicentre of an explosion that produced "a fireball" / "a wall of flame" / "a kind of thick yellow gel that filled the carriage" (delete as inappropriate*) The handbag is almost touching the bucket.

Google Image search results for "wall of flame".

Differences matter.

* i.e., delete it all.

[mentalgongfu2]

Here's a challenge, seriously: Can anyone find any social media profile anywhere for "Sam Flay, 21, London, media guy"? Anything on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or anywhere else? This allegedly-existent eyewitness is the only named person who even saw the bucket or the bag.

A Sam Flay in the UK who works in media
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-flay-bb309a131/

[MacCruiskeen]

Here's a challenge, seriously: Can anyone find any social media profile anywhere for "Sam Flay, 21, London, media guy"? Anything on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or anywhere else? This allegedly-existent eyewitness is the only named person who even saw the bucket or the bag.

A Sam Flay in the UK who works in media
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-flay-bb309a131/

That would be him. The Mail journo described him as a 21-year-old media analyst who works in London, and that photo and that company fit the bill. Good to know he's not fictional. I wonder what he meant by "the bag of life" and the "thick yellow gel that filled the carriage". Presumably he was just very shaken and confused and his words therefore not to be taken too seriously.

Thank you.

[Burnt Hill]

They survived wholly intact and completely unsinged, despite being at the very epicentre of an explosion that produced "a fireball" / "a wall of flame" / "a kind of thick yellow gel that filled the carriage" (delete as inappropriate*) The handbag is almost touching the bucket.

Do we know those items were right there when the "explosion" occurred?
Or were they dropped in the panic?
Maybe someone threw their jacket over the bucket while exiting?
Could explain whatever the black thing is over the bucket.

But yes,
the media sucks and we are constantly being fucked with.
And even if this event happened as described - minus the hyperbole,
it will be used to fuck with us even more.