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"Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:52 am
by mentalgongfu2
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/high-tech-suicide-machine-makes-death-painless-peaceful-optimal-way-go

High-tech suicide machine makes death a painless, peaceful, optimal way to go
Kali Holloway, AlterNet
03 Dec 2017 at 23:46 ET

In a world filled with chaos, a new “suicide machine” allows people to exit life in an orderly, peaceful manner. The Sarco is a technological marvel, resembling some kind of futuristic sleeping chamber, that aids in voluntary assisted dying.

Australian doctor Philip Nitschke, whom Newsweek identifies as the “Elon Musk of assisted suicide,” unveiled the new apparatus earlier this week, just days after lawmakers in the state of Victoria voted to legalize euthanasia. The device simplifies what Nitschke dubs “rational suicides,” ensuring that the process is painless and easy—an optimal way to go.

The Sarco was developed by Nitschke’s organization, Exit International, which bills itself as an “aid-in-dying” organisation. The machine includes a base topped by a translucent chamber perfectly proportioned to comfortably fit a human which. After settling in the pod, the user will push a button and the chamber will start to “fill up with liquid nitrogen to bring the oxygen level down to about 5 percent.” Around the minute mark, the user will become unconscious, experiencing almost no pain, according to the Newsweek report. (The doctor describes the changes as akin to “an airplane cabin depressurizing.”) After death comes, which is fairly swift, the chamber can be used as a coffin. The base, just fyi, is reusable.

In a press release, Exit International notes the Sarco “was designed so that it can be 3D printed and assembled in any location” and that blueprints “will be free, made open-source, and placed on the Internet.” While accessibility is a major selling point, there is one hurdle would-be users will need to clear: a “mental questionnaire” that’s available online. Once a client has established mental health, they’re given a 4-digit code that opens the capsule door, the first in a series of steps to “a peaceful death…in just a few minutes.”

According to Newsweek, a few suicide clinics in Sweden have expressed interest in licensing the Sarco for use. There are also likely to be takers in other spots around the world. In addition to the new Victoria law, assisted suicide is now legal in Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, where it’s become an increasingly popular choice. In the U.S., only teminally ill patients can opt for assisted suicide, and in many states, at least two doctors must verify the legitimacy of the request. State-specific legislative nuance governs “death with dignity” laws in California, Colorado, Oregon, Vermont, D.C. and Washington. All that said, support for the right to choose when and how one dies is on the rise. In 2016, 69 percent of Americans said “doctors should be allowed to end a patient’s life by painless means.” That number increased to 73 percent this year.

Philip Nitschke, who advocates for euthanasia to be a legal option for anyone over 70, continues to push for assisted suicide as a civil right. He says that the grey wave washing over Baby Boomers has helped create a sea change in thinking.

“These are people who are used to getting their own way, running their own lives,” Nitschke told the Big Smoke earlier this year. “A lot of the women have gone through political battles around abortion rights, feminism, the Pill. They don’t want to be told how to live or how to die. The idea that you can pat these people on the head and say ‘there, there, let the doctors decide’ is frankly ridiculous…People’s lives are people’s lives. Death is a part of that, and so it should be up to them to make the decisions.”

Kali Holloway is a senior writer and the associate editor of media and culture at AlterNet.


I support self-determination, but I don't like the idea of convenient, "optimal" suicide booths.

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Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:58 pm
by Burnt Hill
mentalgongfu2 wrote:I support self-determination, but I don't like the idea of convenient, "optimal" suicide booths.


But you're not dying I hope!

For the terminal, why not convenience and ephemeral optimism?
Or is it just that it is marketing death?
I dont know.
It is not something that I would use, but I could see it being appropriate in a hospice situation.
Why dont you like the idea?

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:28 am
by Elvis
In some Greek cities of olden days you could apply for a permit to commit suicide. If it was approved, in some places the state would provide you with the really good hemlock. The Greeks were generally miserable and depressed. And why wouldn't they be? I think they'd love the suicide pods, and SSRI drugs.


P.S. I think the pods are a-okay because they make it clean and neat, as those things go.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:47 am
by stefano
Seems like an excessively expensive solution. Surely a bit of anaesthetic and poison administered by a doctor at home, surrounded by loved ones, would get the job done better?

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:17 pm
by DrEvil
If I'm ever going to off myself I'll walk up to a politician or corporate hack who have screwed me over and blow my brains out in front of them, leaving a note that it's their fault.

Meanwhile, back in reality, I'd probably go for Stefano's option, although the procession to my grave would look pretty cool in one of those pods. Throw in some lasers and a smoke machine for maximum effect.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:35 pm
by norton ash
Vodka, narcotic painkillers, cold winter night. Walk in the woods until I need to lie down beneath a welcoming tree and look at the stars. Hopefully the animals won't eat me til I'm dead. But everyone's got a different optimal I suppose.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:11 pm
by Cordelia
My optimal shuffle off this mortal coil, like most everyone else I imagine, will be in my home, in my sleep, or after a brief (enough time to say goodbye) not inconvenient illness, death-inducing drugs for me; drinks for all.

But if the only choice is between the die-pod or waking up day-after-day to lingering death in an animal elder shelter, spent:

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I’d choose the pod, hands down.
Plus....

After death comes, which is fairly swift, the chamber can be used as a coffin.


...it's cost effective for users who wish their remains to remain (I don't). Better if the pod's reusable or recyclable.

(‘Soylent Green’ was set just five years hence; this would do too, minus Charlton Heston, of course)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edQNjJZFdLU

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:50 pm
by Elvis
^^^ Edward G. Robinson's final movie scene.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:22 am
by 82_28
I supposedly "bailed" on life in May. I had some "seizure" or something and was tossed on life support for four days (so they tell me) and spent most of the month in the hospital, months of physical therapy and still I really suck at getting around. Trust me, when you go, you go. I didn't know shit. Didn't feel anything at all. They could have just unplugged me or let me die where they found me. I would not have known shit.

Knowing that you don't feel anything at all would have been a "great help" when I actually was suicidal 7 or 8 years ago. So, I suppose, when I semi sorta woke up and bummed my family out by saying "well, I guess I know a fool proof way out of this misery" and to doctors "I guess, thanks for saving my life", contraptions like this give me hope. Knowing there is an easy way to make pain go away and not ever realizing what's happening comes super quick.

However, I did learn a thing or two about Medicaid. I was uninsured and yes, the ACA "Obamacare" took care of me while I was brain dead -- it did not cost me a dime and I never even saw a statement. At a private hospital and in home physical therapy no less. So, I have been very attuned to all of this right wing decimation of shit that could really affect people who really do need it. But that part is for another topic.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:13 am
by Pele'sDaughter
Wow, I had no idea what you had been through, but I did notice your absence. :hug1: I'm glad you made it and appreciate the insights you brought back with you.. Although I've had and do have suicidal thoughts sometimes, I haven't figured life/existence out yet. There are still questions I believe can only be answered here and maybe that's the point. Regardless, that's what has kept me on the planet plus not wanting to abandon my family just yet.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:44 pm
by seemslikeadream
seems like the only place to put this.....

Kasie Hunt‏Verified account

At the Capitol this morning: Practice for a future state funeral, complete with casket and hearse

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Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:02 pm
by Cordelia
82, I’m really affected by what you wrote about your experience and, like Pele’s Daughter, I’d noted your more limited presence but wasn’t aware of the reason. Knowing this is now all the more reason to appreciate your contributions. :praybow
Reminded that I had a similar medical emergency (though not as serious) several years ago and was in hospital/convalescence care for weeks. I was ready to check out. Someone I’d been close to all my life, but estranged from in recent years, came to the hospital right away. He said something (probably deliberately since, between us, humor was a crucial survival tool) to make me laugh. Laughing brought me back.

I think planned suicide has become not so much an ideation but a very reasonable and necessary Plan B for a dignified exit rather than dying in an over-crowded institution attended to by strangers. For me, family, animals and any additional artwork I may have left to create is what keeps me tethered in this realm......plus yet unread books, un-watched films and a morbid curiosity in seeing what can possibly happen next on this crazed planet being overtaken by rampant greed & technology.

I agree w/everything you wrote and yeah, millions (myself included) will be screwed w/predicted health 'care' adjustments.

Elvis » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:50 am wrote:^^^ Edward G. Robinson's final movie scene.


Truly a great character/role to end his career; I’d almost watch again just for his scenes. ‘Sol’ was the heart, soul and aesthetic relief in an otherwise relentlessly dark film. His presentation of the gourmet meal of pilfered food & drink amidst the diet of Soylent Green is particularly poignant.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQ6wNfkcmc

(Clever touch, devouring a rare apple in film's setting of The Big Apple.)

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Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:39 pm
by stillrobertpaulsen
Just want to say a few things:

@mentalgongfu2: Thanks for starting this thread! Great topic for discussion here.

@82_28: So sorry to hear about your health scare! But glad that you will not be financially burdened because of it.

@Cordelia and Elvis: Love Soylent Green and Edward G! I think watching a lovely movie would be an optimal way to go - though I would prefer not to become soylent green afterward.

On this subject, are there any RI members from Oregon? I'm wondering because I know that state has legal assisted-suicide that the voters approved. Does anyone know what the state uses as a method for the "optimal way to go"?

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:06 pm
by mentalgongfu2
Burnt Hill » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:58 pm wrote:
mentalgongfu2 wrote:I support self-determination, but I don't like the idea of convenient, "optimal" suicide booths.


But you're not dying I hope!

For the terminal, why not convenience and ephemeral optimism?
Or is it just that it is marketing death?
I dont know.
It is not something that I would use, but I could see it being appropriate in a hospice situation.
Why dont you like the idea?


As far as I know, I'm not facing an immediate death anymore than the rest of us are in the existential sense.

I've been trying to pinpoint why exactly this idea of "convenient, optimal" suicide machines makes me so uncomfortable and how I can articulate it. It's hard for me to do.

I think it does come down to the perception that, as you said, it is the marketing of death, and perhaps even the promotion of it. The whole concept in the OP strikes me as dangerous and open to abuse, as well as a generally unhealthy advancement in the human race. I also have zero faith in the use of an online mental questionnaire to determine someone/s fitness to make a life-ending decision.

I don't feel I have a right to stand in the way of someone who wishes to end their own life; but at the same time, suicide is not something I can exactly support. I've lost too many loved ones to depression, and I fear technology like this will simply make it easier for people with mental illness to act on that momentary thought to end it all, instead of having a chance to pursue something like therapy or medication that could reinvigorate their will to live.

The whole thing just feels wrong to me. As someone who relies on facts and logical argumentation, it bothers me that I can't better express why I find this idea of convenient suicide tech so disturbing, but that was my initial reaction. After more than a week of considering it, I still can't find the right words, but it bothers me just as much as it did when I first saw the article. I believe life is a gift from our creator. I hate to see it squandered. While I can empathize with those who face terminal illness and don't want to prevent them from following through with their wishes, I have a much harder time maintaining the stance outside of that particular circumstance. This explanation doesn't satisfy me, but it's the best I have at the moment.

Re: "Optimal way to go"

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:06 pm
by Blue
Death with Dignity should be legal in all 50 states. It's absurd it's only legal in 6.

I'm not really surprised by the invention of the Sarco since everything is for sale on this planet. But I agree with Stefano's post...a doctor should be able to legally do this at the person's home. No need for a machine - just a gimick for profiteers. I never understood the labelling of Dr. Jack Kevorkian as "Dr. Death" when he was simply helping people in pain. Well, yeah, I do. Religious nuts are nothin' if they ain't wannabe controllers of our very birth and death.

ETA: and yeah, the reason for suicide should be much broader than terminal illness.