Closer to Mars

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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Cordelia » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:06 pm

DrEvil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 pm wrote:We should definitely colonize Mars if we can. If we stick to Earth alone we're one giant space rock away from extinction, and that will happen sooner or later. And honestly, Mars isn't that pretty. Up close it looks more like a post-apocalyptic wasteland than anything else.

The Tesla is obviously a PR stunt, but it did serve a purpose. Musk's goal is to go to Mars, and he just launched a payload towards Mars to see if he could. The payload missed and will end up in the asteroid belt somewhere, and SpaceX probably learned a lot from that mistake. Something had to be the first payload, and sending some expensive science experiment on a launch with a 50% chance of going boom would be pretty stupid.

Also, conflating the Tesla with orbital litter around Earth is just stupid, because it's not orbiting Earth. That's like saying that the waste dump outside your town is bad for my town here on a different continent.

I really don't get this mindset of some people that we should just stick to Earth and not spread beyond it. It's so narrow-minded and lacking in imagination, not to mention that Earth is already struggling to sustain us. There are trillions of planets in the Milky Way. If we colonize a handful of those in the name of human survival and expansion then so what? It's a tiny drop in a very big ocean, and the ocean couldn't care less.


And that extinction would be bad, why? (Because 'human survival' deserves another chance after doing its best in turning the earth into a "post-apocalyptic wasteland"....."struggling to sustain us"?)

Edit to add that It hadn't occurred to me until now that just looking to the sky, with its vast, sweeping array of colors, sunrises, sunsets, the stars, clouds (what bestiary is that one forming?) etc.......is the mindset of one narrow-minded and lacking in imagination. :(
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We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby DrEvil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:54 pm

^^Yeah, sorry, that was way too harsh on my account. It just frustrates me when other people don't think exactly like I do. :hrumph

I think human extinction would be bad because I happen to be one. I don't want us to go extinct and I don't think we deserve to go extinct. Despite my generally nihilistic take on the nature of things I really think that humans all told are awesome. We started out as monkeys banging rocks and flinging poo and went to detecting gravity waves, poking at the nature of reality itself and throwing sports cars at Mars. I can't wait to see where we go next.

There is for all intents and purposes an infinite universe out there, and if we have even the slightest chance to go there then why not? Why limit ourselves to this tiny speck of dirt? I want humans to be around for as long as possible, and one way to do that is to expand our presence in the universe, starting with the moon and then Mars.

If we stay here we will slowly stagnate and eventually die out. I find that thought depressing.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Cordelia » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:16 pm

^^^That's okay, my skin's thicker as I get older. :)

“I don't know anything with certainty, but seeing the stars makes me dream.”
~ Vincent Van Gogh ~

Image

Thank you, Vincent :praybow
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We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:20 pm

DrEvil » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:32 pm wrote:What's really depressing is that NASA was pretty much ready to go to Mars back when Nixon was president. All they needed was the budget to do it. Hardware-wise they had what they needed, but the US had already "won" the space race, and the prospect of locking themselves in to 20-30 years of non-optional expenses (couldn't very well cut the budget if there was people depending on it on Mars) made them chicken out and wind the whole thing down.

Also, as mentioned in the article above, the main reason for the space race was military. It wasn't so much about landing on the moon as it was telling the rest of the world "hey, look at how precise our guidance systems are! We can "land" something (nudge nudge wink wink) wherever we want with pinpoint precision".


The advantage regards Mars about the Moon is for practicing and proving landuings and take offs and various periods of residence without the great distance from Earth.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby SonicG » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:25 pm

If we can't figure out how to feed everyone on the verdant orb, how the fuck are we going to do it on a cold barren desert planet? I am all for expanding the human potential but Musk seems a bit ridiculous to me, tweeting about imaginary bullet trains in the US that will never ever be constructed withe current political mindset in the country.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:03 pm

SonicG » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:25 pm wrote:If we can't figure out how to feed everyone on the verdant orb, how the fuck are we going to do it on a cold barren desert planet? I am all for expanding the human potential but Musk seems a bit ridiculous to me, tweeting about imaginary bullet trains in the US that will never ever be constructed withe current political mindset in the country.


Don't recall if the Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy has been discussed in this thread or elsewhere in detail at RI.

At worst, the Mars Trilogy is an excellent imaginative story of human's reaching Mars and terraforming the planet to the degree that Mars is a viable alternative to an environmentally failing Planet Earth. The story is of people and corporations, technology for travel, modifying the environment of Mars for human life, and the economics and power politics of a new and alien human frontier.

In The Three Stigmata of Palmer Edritch, Philip K Dick wrote wrote a tale with the back drop of an environmentally failing Planet Earth drafing "colonists" to live a miserable existence on Mars in a corporate future. Characters in and the readers of TSOPE experience a disorienting time of mind altering drugs and encounters with a God-like ialien entity.

In the novels of Robinson and Dick, Mars is an escape from a corporate Earth with a failing environment where Mars is the possible physical escape, very similar than what humans face by the devise of their own hand and natures at present.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby DrEvil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:26 pm

SonicG » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:25 pm wrote:If we can't figure out how to feed everyone on the verdant orb, how the fuck are we going to do it on a cold barren desert planet? I am all for expanding the human potential but Musk seems a bit ridiculous to me, tweeting about imaginary bullet trains in the US that will never ever be constructed withe current political mindset in the country.


I don't think not doing something because we can't do this other thing either is the right way to go about it. You could apply the same argument to anything really. Why do X when we can't do Y? Obvious answer: let's do both.

And who knows, maybe figuring out how to feed the Martians will give us the knowledge needed to feed everyone here without radically changing our society (not that our society isn't in need of some radical change).
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby dada » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:38 pm

Human survival and expansion isn't necessarily a 'good or bad' thing. Existence isn't inherently good, it's existing.

Why choose existence over non-existence? It's a question we've been struggling with for a while. Is it because we're cowards? Could be. But who am I to judge.

By the same token, it isn't my place to judge humanity for its sins. Maybe nature has bigger plans, how would I know. I don't understand her, I just love her.

Speaking of nature, she survives and expands. It's simply what she does. So maybe we're just being in harmony if we try to do the same.

But let's be serious. Setting aside all grand sociological, cultural, philosophical pronouncements on instincts, psychology, morality, and whatnot, what argument can we make as to why humans should keep existing? Because we're sappy and sentimental? We're addicted to the drama? Force of habit? When I get down to it, I guess I choose human survival over extinction because I have a tendency to root for the underdog. On the personal level, I endure purely out of spite.

Another thing. How separate are we really from nature, from the universe? Dr. Evil says "the ocean doesn't care," and I know what he means. But we care, and we're part of the universe. So in a way, the universe does care.

That's not to say the universe literally cares. It may, or it may not. I think it most probable that it neither cares nor is indifferent. Those are human conceptions. If anything, the universe is indifferently caring, and cares indifferently. Like me.

But in the end, I think all this is missing the point. Space travel is exciting and could even be considered fun, and so is thinking about it. I'm not against fun and excitement. But in the end it's another distraction. Not because I think we should be occupied with more earthly concerns, but because I think we're more than 'human beings trapped in time and space.' We limit ourselves, narrow our view. Some would say it's because we have lessons to learn. I don't know about that. I just see people stuck in neurological ruts. I wish I knew the magic words to get them unstuck. But then I think, maybe they like it that way. So I should just leave them be.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby 82_28 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:51 pm

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:47 pm

Rory, do you think there are non-Earth civilizations who travel in space? Or is it impossible for every species, everywhere? (meaning physical travel by tech means.)
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Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:06 pm

“BECAUSE IT’S THERE”

THE QUOTABLE GEORGE MALLORY

ADVENTURE TRAVEL//CLIMB//EXPLORE//OUT THERE

George Mallory is most famous for three immortal words he spoke to a New York Times reporter in 1923 — “Because it’s there” — which have echoed throughout western culture. They are invariably trotted out whenever someone tries to justify an unjustifiable ambition. Why travel to the moon? Why explore the depths of the ocean? Once you unravel the teleological thread of these questions, you’re left with the simple fact that Mallory leaves us with.

But Mallory was more than a wit — he was a mountaineer of the first order, the rare climber whose eloquent words matched the bold style of his climbs. He cut his chops on climbs in his native England and the Alps, but it wasn’t until 1921 that he found his raison d’etre, the mountain that would consume his ambition — Everest. His first attempt was a failure; his second, in 1921, was a tragedy: seven porters died in an avalanche.

Failure only seemed to steel his resolve. He returned to Everest in 1924 for his fatal third attempt. He was last seen on the way to the summit along with his partner Andrew Irvine. Mallory’s frozen body was found by climbers on the Mountain’s north ridge in 1999.

Mallory lives on in the following brilliantly eloquent quotes.

“BECAUSE IT’S THERE… EVEREST IS THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN IN THE WORLD, AND NO MAN HAS REACHED ITS SUMMIT. ITS EXISTENCE IS A CHALLENGE. THE ANSWER IS INSTINCTIVE, A PART, I SUPPOSE, OF MAN’S DESIRE TO CONQUER THE UNIVERSE.”

Edward Abbey in Desert Solitaire alludes to Mallory as a “frost-bitten… inarticulate” mountain climber in reference to this famous quote.

But what the quote lacks in poetry, it makes up for it with bald truth. No one has ever quite cut to the matter of mountaineering — the sport’s simplicity, the almost existential absurdity of it all.

“HAVE WE VANQUISHED AN ENEMY? NONE BUT OURSELVES.”

After a climb in the Alps, Mallory wrote about his ascent in the Alpine Journal, an account that contains this memorable quote. He hadn’t yet attempted Everest, the mountain to which his legacy would forever be tied, but already viewed mountaineering in terms of a romantic struggle with the self.

“IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY PET PLAN TO CLIMB THE MOUNTAIN GASLESS… THE GASLESS PARTY HAS THE BETTER ADVENTURE.”

Mallory went without supplementary oxygen on his first two Everest attempts, despite its use by other climbers in 1922. He wished to accomplish the feat on his own terms, to preserve the sanctity of the adventure. This anticipated the modern climbers like Reinhold Messner who believe the only fair means ascent of a mountain is one where no supplementary oxygen is used.

Failure, however, encourages compromise. In his third and final Everest attempt in 1924, Mallory followed the advice of other climbers and lugged the bulky oxygen canisters with him toward the summit, sucking the gas out of the primitive mask. If he couldn’t do it without oxygen, he would do it by any means necessary. “The conquest of the mountain is the great thing,” he said.

“MY INTENTION IS TO CARRY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, MOVE FAST AND CATCH THE SUMMIT BY SURPRISE.”

This could be the credo of the modern day alpine-style climber, whose goal is to travel light and fast and gain the summit in one push. The siege tactics that Mallory and other climbers of his day used on Everest, however, is a far cry from this ideal. Dozens of people and thousands of pounds of supplies were used to ensure that two climbers would have a chance at reaching the summit.

“[EVEREST] WAS A PRODIGIOUS WHITE FANG EXCRESCENT FROM THE JAW OF THE WORLD… WE WERE SATISFIED THAT THE HIGHEST OF MOUNTAINS WOULD NOT DISAPPOINT US.”

Mallory had a way with words. His Everest journals are filled with mellifluous — yet hard edged — descriptions like this one. This is no surprise, considering he studied at Cambridge and was well acquainted with the literary classics. Reportedly, he would recite Keats to his fellow climbers at camp on Everest.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:52 am

"When I'm done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched. That's why I drink Orange Drink!"
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby dada » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:16 am

the sport’s simplicity, the almost existential absurdity of it all.


How is it "almost" existentially absurd? What, in the writers point of view, redeems it from full on existential absurdity. Or is he just afraid to commit.

I disagree with the Mallory/Everest article. "Because it's there" and "the desire to conquer the universe" are not brilliantly eloquent words, they're weak arguments. Dangerous and irresponsible ones, as well.

I see nothing romantic about the struggle with the self. Wanting to prove something to yourself is an inner, private affair. More tragic-comic than romantic.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Rory » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:10 am

Elvis wrote:Rory, do you think there are non-Earth civilizations who travel in space? Or is it impossible for every species, everywhere? (meaning physical travel by tech means.)


To paraphrase the philosopher, Donald Rumsfeld.

Known knowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns. What you ask is firmly in the last category.

The first is finite. The second is a countable infinity (like the set of natural numbers). The last is an uncountable infinity (like the real number set).

I'd say it's entirely possible. Does that mean we can do it?
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Rory » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:17 am

How are the cities at the bottom of challenger deep, coming along? Or the ones inside magma flows of active volcanoes. How about Antarctica. All of these are (by many orders of magnitude) more hostpitible and sustainable places for human habitation than Mars/Moon/Zeta Reticuli.

We figured oiut how to feed 8 billion people, manage climate change back to pre 1800 levels of CO2, cleaned all the nuclear waste and reversed soil salinity, top soil depletion, while maintaining perfect world peace? All of these things are "easy" compared to going to and settling Mars.
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