Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Burnt Hill » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:07 pm

Godspeed stillrobertpaulsen! Good work you have done here. :sun:
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby chump » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:11 am

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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:46 pm

Elvis, locking the 'wither the democrats' thread is not going to magically fix things. You are a mod, and are not behaving like one. This is something that should be discussed publically on the board, as AD said.

Maybe the discussion could be had right here, on the collaborative discussion sticky thread.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Yeah, I tried once more to get some kind of accountability happening but Elvis locked the thread (thereby shutting down conversation where it most should be), and then justified it after the fact with false claims which were unanswerable there.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:18 pm

I think the justifications are the least mod-like behavior, more than the actions. The justifications tell me that the actions haven't been thought through all the way. If I feel the need to justify my actions, I know that there are better probably better ways to handle things.

And in this case, there are definitely better ways to handle things. This is a discussion board, we can discuss. Mod is a responsibility role, someone taking on the responsibility has got to moderate their own thoughts and actions first, or the arbitrary behavior will drive posters away. And there ain't that many posters left to drive away. So this is something that need be addressed.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:47 pm

Especially if the mod has strong feelings on a particular topic, the top priority should be for them to push their partisan feelings to the background and enforce the guidelines as neutrally (and consistently) as possible.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:08 pm

"Mod" is basically a referee in a demolition derby. When the drivers get out of their cars and pull knives, start swinging chains at each other, the mod puts a stop to it. That's what the mod role is for. When things devolve into a shit-storm of personal attacks, ad hominem, invective, mudslinging, sometimes the ban hammer needs be dropped. And even then, it can be avoided sometimes. Skillful mod is respected, appeals to better natures just by their presence.

Mod also protects overall board integrity, in this case would mean stopping links to nazi sites, anti-semitism, anti-feminist trolling. Big picture stuff.

Anything else is subjective, not mod's role to decide. Encouraging and participating in dialogue between board members is taking steps toward solutions. If decision is made, it's made by the board, not the mod.

Most importantly here, I think: You aren't in the difficult position that WR was in, Elvis, as sole mod. You have an even-tempered, peace-loving co-mod in 82. Take advantage of this. I'd suggest that in the case of subjective matters, you might step back, give things 24 hours before taking action, discuss things with your co-mod.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:50 pm

From my perspective Elvis has moderated this board very well.

It is a difficult role and it is particularly delicate when the members objecting to a moderator’s decisions are known to be sensitive and thin-skinned over criticism.

None of us think we deserve discipline or a time out or an outright banning. Ego blocks our objectivity to see our own posts as problematic in any way.

All I can offer, on Elvis’ behalf, is that I’ve seen his calls as justified and judicious.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:56 pm

I would love to see him be accountable for his decisions. Not everything he said is factual and his story has been sketchy, at best.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:12 pm

Yes, of course. It's all well and good to pipe up in support for Elvis, peartreed. Your opinions are noted, and welcome. Still, Elvis needs to discuss his own actions in his own words, I think.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:51 pm

American Dream » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:56 pm wrote:I would love to see him be accountable for his decisions. Not everything he said is factual and his story has been sketchy, at best.

AD, this is a good place to talk about it, please elaborate.


dada wrote:Elvis, locking the 'wither the democrats' thread is not going to magically fix things. You are a mod, and are not behaving like one. This is something that should be discussed publically on the board, as AD said.

dada, I don't remember any occasion when a moderator put locking up for discussion (I did unseriously suggest deleting that whole thread). None of the deletions would have happened if Slad hadn't taken a Trump dump there. I've apologized for deleting your responses to it, I admit it was not especially well thought through. But nor is the frequent disruption/derailment of threads, which to me is this board's biggest problem.

I'm human, I make mistakes, and I can learn from them. I hope you'll forgive me and we can move on.


dada wrote:"Mod" is basically a referee in a demolition derby.

Food for thought, there; people have compared moderating with "bartender," "janitor," "cop" and now "demolition derby referee" (there must be others as well). All seem like good analogies under various circumstances. (But remember that demolition derby basically has one rule: you have to bash someone when you pass them.)


dada wrote: give things 24 hours before taking action

I gave AD two days to move his totally off-topic post.


peartreed wrote:It is a difficult role and it is particularly delicate when the members objecting to a moderator’s decisions are known to be sensitive and thin-skinned over criticism.

None of us think we deserve discipline or a time out or an outright banning. Ego blocks our objectivity to see our own posts as problematic in any way.

All I can offer, on Elvis’ behalf, is that I’ve seen his calls as justified and judicious.

Thanks, Peartreed. It is difficult. I especially dislike being put in a position that calls for moderater action when people should be moderating themselves. I am taking dada's criticisms into account, I can't blame him for being upset, and I'm a little upset with myself for deleting too large a swath.


Some time ago in a PM, my correspondent wrote, "They should just ban that person!" and I replied along the lines of, "Yeah, no kidding!." But when you suddenly become the "they," that attitude changes (if you're being fair): we don't have the right to just ban someone because we disagree or don't like their style. My interest is in a healthy discussion board, with minimal disruptions, and rewarding exchanges for everyone.


Feedback welcomed, but between the family crisis and work, I might be slow to respond.


P.S. A post I read about being messed up that day on drugs (legal) and medicines might partly explain the poor judgement in one of these instances, but the reference was later deleted, and not by me. So maybe we're not getting the whole story.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:02 pm

Elvis » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:51 pm wrote:I gave AD two days to move his totally off-topic post.


Your reality is alien to me. I have no knowledge of you giving me two days to remove my post. You moved it without my prior awareness and then sent me a pm telling me you had accidentally deleted it. I told you by pm that I would not discuss it with you further in a private messaging context but that I thought we should discuss what happened publicly. It was after I reposted the deleted article in another thread and posted something publicly raising the issue of your intervention that you responded not with accountability but by deleting more posts and banning me for a week. When I came back today and raised my concerns again, your response was to lock the thread.

Also, are you now consistently enforcing some sort of on-topic rules, or was that just a "special" policy to be served at your discretion?
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:10 pm

Yes, this is all fine, Elvis. The point is that since you are mod, you have a responsibility to the board members to act like one. If you want to be and act like just another non-mod poster, then do that. It's one or the other. Either way is fine with me, I appreciate what all of the posters here bring to the board.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:31 am

Apparently I made a nasty mistake—

American Dream wrote: It was after I reposted the deleted article in another thread


I just went to check the log to prove you wrong because I was certain that your re-post was in The Socialist Response thread, but you are correct, I see now that I deleted it from the U.S. Troops Surround Syria thread.

I humbly apologize—you did the right thing and I screwed up. I was sure I'd double-checked the thread but the log says I was mistaken.

If it's any consolation, the suspension was lifted after 30 hours. I assumed you'd get an auto-notice to that effect, or I would have tried to let you know.

Of course none of this would have happened if you hadn't dumped an article about counting bodies in Syria into the Socialist Response thread, especially given your history of vandalizing others' threads with unrelated or vaguely connected copy/paste.


American Dream wrote:When I came back today and raised my concerns again, your response was to lock the thread.

Locking that thread was not a response to you, anyway this is the more appropriate thread for these issues.


I'm 'recusing' myself for a week in self-recrimination. I obviously need time off and home issues are pressing anyway. If I'm still a moderator a week from now, I'll be a much more careful, cautious and constructive one.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:43 am

Elvis is performing as a moderator, effectively. He is also a board member offering his views and responses to issues and discussions. It isn't, "one or the other" and need not be. All the moderators here over the years since I've participated have been active, participating members as well as sometimes stepping in, when required, in a moderator role. We are fortunate to have good people doing that. None are perfect, all are human. It's a thankless job, but it should be respected by all of us here. A moderator need not explain and defend all moderating decisions as an ongoing responsibility to those moderated or to the members observing those actions, especially not when the initial explanation is rejected by the objector. Otherwise we end up with entire threads of argument and umbrage and objections to the authority invested in moderators. That is boring and redundant and pointless in terms of what the board is for. We all win some and lose some. So be it. That's life. Accept it.
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