Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:51 pm

.

I'll do my best to keep this brief as I've already wasted enough typed words on this.

IAM:
If the man poses some real danger, you folks are terrible at raising the alarm, btw.


You claim earlier that you are not criticizing/scrutinizing. English isn't my first language, but the above reads like criticism/scrutiny to me, which is certainly fair game, of course, but: quit with the false pretenses. Your critique is empty, in any event, coming from a member that admitted he rarely reads the source material (AD's postings).

And therein lies the point: it certainly is not for me to educate/inform you of the reasons for AD's suspension, though your willful avoidance of his content is a chief reason you are wasting our time with these inquiries; if you don't care to look into it yourself, why would I waste my time explaining any of it to you? I wouldn't, and won't.

If the mods are up for indulging your request, they may do so -- that's up to them.

In the interim, I'll reiterate my earlier suggestion that some analysis on your part, if indeed you're truly interested, will go a long way towards answering your questions.

Lastly, it should be clear here that it's a gross misrepresentation to claim that AD's copy/pasted material alone is the cause for his numerous suspensions.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:48 am

When all we have to judge other members postings on a forum is their fanciful avatars and their words on a page, the imagination fills in the blanks to try to picture the actual author, their emotions, their intent, their motivations, their attitude, their likely educational level and their politics or social position behind their presentation in a post or a series of posts. It is almost all pure conjecture.

All we really have to judge is our own interpretation of those words on the page and our own projection of the person writing them based on our own mind’s focus, filters, formulations, fancies and fantasies. That includes all our own beliefs, biases and beefs. The end result is a projected picture in our heads of that personality.

After our exposure to the postings over time, the imagined author and its character become an almost-real image and a personality in our mind with all its features and flaws and favorite fixations. The image is reinforced by others’ imaginations and input too.

My point is that the image is likely more erroneous than accurate. I’ve met people online who, in person, are almost opposite my initial faulty impressions and assumptions. There is a real danger in misinterpreting your own projections as true. The danger is magnified when you take actions based on your false image.

Fortunately this forum has some fine people posting their legitimate questions, challenges and observations regarding the members being banned and blocked. I just want to add my voice to the conscientious concern about moderator decisions.

The recent bans and suspensions on AD, Jerky, and sixlegged appear more subjective than substantiated by rule violations, and I suspect they’re motivated by imagination and manipulation and rumour mongering more than any material evidence of violations.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:57 pm

elfismiles » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:41 am wrote:First, welcome back Elvis.

If anyone simply insists on discussing any of this, please reply in the Rhetoric sticky thread. But no cheering or gloating. Peace.


Peace, indeed. Can I get a HalleluJAH?!? :praybow

Thank you for the Moderator Announcements for January 3, 2019 post / thread. I think it is very important to have a public place for folks to be able to find information on the board's punishment of users for rules infractions (with specific statements about what rules were violated). I've felt (and heard from others) for quite a long while that moderation at this forum has never been equitably distributed.

I will be the first to admit that I often do not perceive the level of trolling ascribed to certain users that is perceived by others. And so it was with the accusations against American Dream ... I think I've since read some descriptions that help me begin to see the outlines of what is alleged but ... that level of "subtle" trolling seems so innocuous to me as to warrant a significant evidential accounting - especially for such a harsh (year-long) suspension. Can the mods please explain exactly what board rules he violated? Preferably these explanations should appear in the thread/post/forum where such bans and suspensions are publicly posted so that folks don't have to hunt for them.

And alleged "proxy troll" sixlegged ... ??? Obviously wasn't off to a good start but, "proxy troll"? Evidence? What board rules were broken warranting a ban?


I may have more to say later but I'm pressed for time (my mother died last week, it's the only time I'll be able to use that excuse so I'm taking it, plus I'm working a 7-day-a-week job this month).

Regarding "Sixlegged," it seems obvious to me that an "old pal" of Jerky's with one or two previous posts (first in 2012) who starts a new thread for the sole purpose of name-calling and making ludicrous, contradictory charges, is a troll (if not an outright sockpuppet). I also took the phrase "targeted for destruction" as a subtle threat. Bad news.


P.S. Thanks, elfismiles, I have great respect for you and you're my nomination for next moderator.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:11 pm

I am very sorry to hear that Elvis I have lost my mother father sister all four grandparents and a grandchild ....it is very difficult and you have my word from this point forward that you will have no more trouble from me....either by way of me leaving here for awhile or just holding my tongue
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby liminalOyster » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:02 pm

So much love and support for you, Elvis. So so sorry for your loss.


Elvis » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:57 pm wrote:
elfismiles » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:41 am wrote:First, welcome back Elvis.

If anyone simply insists on discussing any of this, please reply in the Rhetoric sticky thread. But no cheering or gloating. Peace.


Peace, indeed. Can I get a HalleluJAH?!? :praybow

Thank you for the Moderator Announcements for January 3, 2019 post / thread. I think it is very important to have a public place for folks to be able to find information on the board's punishment of users for rules infractions (with specific statements about what rules were violated). I've felt (and heard from others) for quite a long while that moderation at this forum has never been equitably distributed.

I will be the first to admit that I often do not perceive the level of trolling ascribed to certain users that is perceived by others. And so it was with the accusations against American Dream ... I think I've since read some descriptions that help me begin to see the outlines of what is alleged but ... that level of "subtle" trolling seems so innocuous to me as to warrant a significant evidential accounting - especially for such a harsh (year-long) suspension. Can the mods please explain exactly what board rules he violated? Preferably these explanations should appear in the thread/post/forum where such bans and suspensions are publicly posted so that folks don't have to hunt for them.

And alleged "proxy troll" sixlegged ... ??? Obviously wasn't off to a good start but, "proxy troll"? Evidence? What board rules were broken warranting a ban?


I may have more to say later but I'm pressed for time (my mother died last week, it's the only time I'll be able to use that excuse so I'm taking it, plus I'm working a 7-day-a-week job this month).

Regarding "Sixlegged," it seems obvious to me that an "old pal" of Jerky's with one or two previous posts (first in 2012) who starts a new thread for the sole purpose of name-calling and making ludicrous, contradictory charges, is a troll (if not an outright sockpuppet). I also took the phrase "targeted for destruction" as a subtle threat. Bad news.


P.S. Thanks, elfismiles, I have great respect for you and you're my nomination for next moderator.
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:59 pm

My sincere condolences go out to Elvis on the passing of his mother last week. Our extended family also lost two people during the Christmas and New Year holidays so I can appreciate the deep sense of loss, especially during what should be a time of joy and peace. Keep the forum in its proper perspective as only an incidental hobby and a hopefully enjoyable read.

With further regard to how we view one another as members and contributors here, I can only emphasize that our impressions of the other people posting are mostly based on erroneous imagination and the gossip associated with their history on R.I. I suggest we withhold judgment of others until we have actual facts to base that on. Negativity should be judged by its source as well as validity.

Similarly, it is becoming tiresome reading criticisms, critiques and continuing character assassinations of the typical targets of alleged rule enforcement when the main complaint is the opposing views and the differences in posting practices of the accused. Some of us prefer diversity and variety to conformity and compliance with a common consensus, not only in post content and opinion but also in personality.

Don’t let the prevailing popular mischaracterizations carve your image of the target, or allow others’ assumptions of imagined attitudes influence your own independent assessment.

Some would prefer this place as an archive of their own autobiographical and academic contributions to the controversies without any competing, correcting or contradicting criticism. The resentment of other members’ post volume illustrates a possessive and proprietary attitude to this place that is unhealthy for sharing. A forum by definition is a gathering of many diverse views and people.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:05 pm

peartreed » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:59 pm wrote:My sincere condolences go out to Elvis on the passing of his mother last week. Our extended family also lost two people during the Christmas and New Year holidays so I can appreciate the deep sense of loss, especially during what should be a time of joy and peace. Keep the forum in its proper perspective as only an incidental hobby and a hopefully enjoyable read.

With further regard to how we view one another as members and contributors here, I can only emphasize that our impressions of the other people posting are mostly based on erroneous imagination and the gossip associated with their history on R.I. I suggest we withhold judgment of others until we have actual facts to base that on. Negativity should be judged by its source as well as validity.

Similarly, it is becoming tiresome reading criticisms, critiques and continuing character assassinations of the typical targets of alleged rule enforcement when the main complaint is the opposing views and the differences in posting practices of the accused. Some of us prefer diversity and variety to conformity and compliance with a common consensus, not only in post content and opinion but also in personality.

Don’t let the prevailing popular mischaracterizations carve your image of the target, or allow others’ assumptions of imagined attitudes influence your own independent assessment.

Some would prefer this place as an archive of their own autobiographical and academic contributions to the controversies without any competing, correcting or contradicting criticism. The resentment of other members’ post volume illustrates a possessive and proprietary attitude to this place that is unhealthy for sharing. A forum by definition is a gathering of many diverse views and people.


How dare you.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:59 pm

Very sorry to hear of your loss Elvis.

Losing a parent, especially a mother, is such a primal experience. I lost mine last year, unexpectedly, and it catapulted me into time tunnel of childhood feelings and memories. Yea, it only happens once, a liminal time. Please take good care.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Regarding recent suspensions and critiques—I understand and sympathize with the many who took issue with the poster who received a long suspension, but wish that harassment of everyone else would end.

It especially bothers me when Peartreed and SLAD are targeted. Peartreed has been such a evenhanded poster showing nothing but respect for all. And SLAD posts so much important content. So what if you don’t agree with them. If we all agreed there would be no point in discussing things.

I don’t read every thread so I may have missed some rules infractions by Jerky, but the reactions to him seem exaggerated. He is a talented writer and has well-thought out perspectives. I may not agree with all of them but enjoy hearing them.

I’m only learning about many of the topics discussed here since I don’t have time to follow everything. I’m open to both sides of the Russia controversy and haven’t yet fully understood it or made up my mind. I wish certain members would stop being so pushy and aggressive (a real turn off) about their take on it. I expected better from a seemingly intelligent and well-read poster like Jack R, (although I’ve appreciated his contributions on many other topics).

Why can’t we all just present our views, ideas and research and let whoever reads them make up their own minds?
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:46 pm

.

I am very sorry for your loss, Elvis. All I can do in the way of "help" from this seat is to urge you not to do this stuff here if it's any kind of further burden, only if it works for you as a diversion.

This was a thoughtful comment, I can hardly improve on it:

Heaven Swan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:59 pm wrote:Very sorry to hear of your loss Elvis.

Losing a parent, especially a mother, is such a primal experience. I lost mine last year, unexpectedly, and it catapulted me into time tunnel of childhood feelings and memories. Yea, it only happens once, a liminal time. Please take good care.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby elfismiles » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:24 am

I'm sincerely sorry for your loss Elvis.

Thank you for your reply and thank you in advance for any further comments...

As far as IDing sixlegged or anyone else as a sock, it seems like it can only ever be a judgement call without IP address info (which isn't even a guarantee / can be MASKed - or so I hear).

And after reviewing Jeff's past posting guidelines I'm not sure about any moderation judgements.

Thank you for your respect and nomination. Sadly, previous and current attempts at conscripting me will not work. I appreciate the vote of confidence implied but I just can't afford the pricetag.

Elvis » 06 Jan 2019 19:57 wrote:
I may have more to say later but I'm pressed for time (my mother died last week, it's the only time I'll be able to use that excuse so I'm taking it, plus I'm working a 7-day-a-week job this month).

Regarding "Sixlegged," it seems obvious to me that an "old pal" of Jerky's with one or two previous posts (first in 2012) who starts a new thread for the sole purpose of name-calling and making ludicrous, contradictory charges, is a troll (if not an outright sockpuppet). I also took the phrase "targeted for destruction" as a subtle threat. Bad news.


P.S. Thanks, elfismiles, I have great respect for you and you're my nomination for next moderator.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:51 am

Glad you are back as Mod Elvis.

Thoughts to you about losing your Father.

Be kind to yourself. :hug1:
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Marionumber1 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:47 pm

Elvis, I'm so sorry for your loss. You deserve this time to yourself to work through the grief. Take care. :lovehearts:
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 am

Thanks for all the kind words, I'm fine and staying busy. I probably shouldn't have mentioned the family death (which btw was not unexpected, and occurred peacefully in hospice), but wanted to explain my minimal presence here at this time. I'll have much more free time next week.

elfismiles, I didn't mean to say that Sixlegged was a sock puppet, it's just a possibility. "Proxy" fits since Sixlegged was relaying what Sixlegged says Jerky told Sixlegged. "Troll" works for me.

I see some good threads happening — go AOC!
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