Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby norton ash » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:37 pm

I prefer Elvis to American Pastebucket. And I wouldn't belong to any cabal that would have me as a member.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:42 pm

PREDICTION: There'll soon be an announcement from someone-or-other with the power to make such announcements (under any name) that this board has sadly reached the end of its natural life, that several "sides" are equally to blame, that the "RI community" (ffs) has been split beyond repair, that it's all most regrettable, that he will not tolerate any more aspersions cast against respected long-term posters such as the Screeching Dream and the Voiceless Dream or their two or three suck-ups, and that he does not see fit to maintain this board financially or support it in any other way. Financial, health, work and family pressures may well be adduced. Suggestions of crowdfunding or the like will not be accepted,

We will be wished all the best, Elvis will be thanked for his sterling service, and we may even be advised that Facebook and Twitter are available to us as alternatives.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about all this. I do not want to believe it possible.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." (Max Liebermann, Berlin, 1933)

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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:26 pm

What is clearly evident in so many of the critical posts on all sides is the imaginary attribution of suspected motives and malintent towards other members thought to be conspiring as a group, including a further imagined political or ideological category of extremism on both opposite ends being the secret affiliation and shared undermining strategy of these same co-conspirators and their aligned, inept, individual supporters.

It is all delusional and designed to serve pre-set, self-justifying excuses and prejudices instead of recognizing diverse individuality and everyone’s entitlement to it. Freedom of speech also includes freedom of opinion other than your own. While opposing views feel uncomfortable, they’re not evil.
When you suddenly discover your posted opinion is unpopular or disagreed with, it’s not by nefarious secret planning by a hidden cohort of compatriots out to get you personally and destroy your credibility. It could just mean that many disagree with you or your style or your view.

On the other hand, rude and crude, cruel behavior personally targeting individuals is a shared trait. That is usually a product of immaturity, ignorance, arrogance and a general disregard for civil conduct. It still inspires others to copy that behavior if they support the writer or the point of view being expressed.

Elvis recognized that fact and, despite our differences, sincerely tried to respectfully apply forum rules. As I have stated previously here, being a moderator is a thankless role but I really do thank him for his efforts. I just happen to disagree with his recent calls. Strongly disagree. But I acknowledge his intent.

He admittedly had his own affiliations and preferences for people here, but he tried to be objective in applying established board protocols and rules. The problem is that we all carry several subjective preconceptions based on our reading and interaction history here on R.I. One of those was about AD.
I know this because it was the subject of several discussions online and also via private PM exchanges.

So was the conduct of SLaD, Jack, Mac, BS, Rory and several other members flagged by alerts to Mods. The result of all of it has been continuing acrimony, anger and antagonism corrupting the whole board. It is no longer a relaxing place to pursue political and social interests among intelligent communicators.

I’m again returning to other pursuits while the antagonists reply to this with predictable personal insult and sarcasm and mockery as their venal revenge.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and a wonderful vacation away from Rigorous Intuition rivalry as a return to good will among us all.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:57 pm

^^ arsebiscuits
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby PufPuf93 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:21 pm

AD's post is about the ugliest and underhanded posting I have ever observed on the internet. It is an attack on the RI community itself, all opinions.

I don't have the brain nor intellect (and also avoid conflict in general) recently to add much to RI so don't post much. Because of this I have not shared my opinion on the various conflicts.

RI has been for years my favorite forum on the internet

I am firmly against AD in this matter and thought Elvis as coping well and appropriate as mod.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby PufPuf93 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:27 pm

MacCruiskeen » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:42 pm wrote:PREDICTION: There'll soon be an announcement from someone-or-other with the power to make such announcements (under any name) that this board has sadly reached the end of its natural life, that several "sides" are equally to blame, that the "RI community" (ffs) has been split beyond repair, that it's all most regrettable, that he will not tolerate any more aspersions cast against respected long-term posters such as the Screeching Dream and the Voiceless Dream or their two or three suck-ups, and that he does not see fit to maintain this board financially or support it in any other way. Financial, health, work and family pressures may well be adduced. Suggestions of crowdfunding or the like will not be accepted,

We will be wished all the best, Elvis will be thanked for his sterling service, and we may even be advised that Facebook and Twitter are available to us as alternatives.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about all this. I do not want to believe it possible.


If you are correct about a closing of RI, I hope a new forum comes from the ashes and, if so, please tell me so I can join. There are many once RI posters I would like to see back.

I may not post much because my brain does not function well these days but I am willing to provide the cash to establish a new board and any expenses for the first year.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby DrEvil » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:38 pm

I wouldn't mind an explanation from someone in the know about what happened, just to set the record straight.

Despite the drama this is still one of my favorite places online, and has been for years. It's the only place where I think of the other posters as actual people, even friends, and not just usernames.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby guruilla » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:41 pm

I just skimmed this thread and the latest developments, so correct me if I am wrong; but isn't the relevant question here "How did AD get back on the board after being fairly & justly banned by the Mod.?"

The logical assumption seems to be that Jeff Wells let him back on. So then the question is why? Why did he do this without posting his reasons? Why at least not explain why he undermined the authority of the Mod, Elvis, thereby leaving him no choice but to quit, as the only expression of autonomy left him.

Elvis, did you get any explanation from Jeff?

I am currently an almost total non-participant at this board, not even a lurker; the reason is that I have seen how consistently the sanest, most reasonable voices are censored, while power and freedom is given to the worst, with no apparent explanation besides sentimentality or a hidden power hierarchy. This suggests the board is not functioning in accord with its own supposed purpose or principles, but as something else entirely, something more sinister.

I'll probably alert JW to this on Faceborg. I have nothing to lose by pointing out to him that, either he's dropped the ball entirely and someone else is running with it, or he's behaving unconscionably.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Jerky » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:14 am

MacCruiskeen » 24 Dec 2018 00:57 wrote:^^ arsebiscuits


Whoa now. That's not very nice!

Particularly seeing as every last thing PearTreed typed there was 100% empirically certified and easily verifiable TRUTH.

Cheers!
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Jerky » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:22 am

Fact of the matter, dear Guru, is that AD was NOT "fairly and justly banned".

In fact, AD received the sort of ban (a year's ban, what... for NOT falling for the bait that was so trollishly laid out for him?!) that Jack and Mac have earned themselves a hundred times over, if a fair and equitable eye were taken to the last year of this board activity.

I mean, just look at their behavior towards anyone who ever dared to speak up in defense of SLAD or AD. PearTreed went from respected and admired participant here to being the recipient of a blizzard of insults pretty much overnight for his "crime" of speaking up for them (and for me) when the level of inequity became too ridiculous to stay quiet over.

Is it any wonder why so many others who feel the same way as PearTreed and myself choose silence over speaking out? It takes a special kind of fool to not care about being made into a target of mass trolling, gaslighting and hate.

Sincerely;
yer old pal Jerky

guruilla » 24 Dec 2018 03:41 wrote:I just skimmed this thread and the latest developments, so correct me if I am wrong; but isn't the relevant question here "How did AD get back on the board after being fairly & justly banned by the Mod.?"

The logical assumption seems to be that Jeff Wells let him back on. So then the question is why? Why did he do this without posting his reasons? Why at least not explain why he undermined the authority of the Mod, Elvis, thereby leaving him no choice but to quit, as the only expression of autonomy left him.

Elvis, did you get any explanation from Jeff?

I am currently an almost total non-participant at this board, not even a lurker; the reason is that I have seen how consistently the sanest, most reasonable voices are censored, while power and freedom is given to the worst, with no apparent explanation besides sentimentality or a hidden power hierarchy. This suggests the board is not functioning in accord with its own supposed purpose or principles, but as something else entirely, something more sinister.

I'll probably alert JW to this on Faceborg. I have nothing to lose by pointing out to him that, either he's dropped the ball entirely and someone else is running with it, or he's behaving unconscionably.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Cordelia » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:52 am

guruilla » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:41 am wrote:I just skimmed this thread and the latest developments, so correct me if I am wrong; but isn't the relevant question here "How did AD get back on the board after being fairly & justly banned by the Mod.?

The logical assumption seems to be that Jeff Wells let him back on. So then the question is why? Why did he do this without posting his reasons? Why at least not explain why he undermined the authority of the Mod, Elvis, thereby leaving him no choice but to quit, as the only expression of autonomy left him.


Good questions. C&P from the thread Elvis locked (or, to quote AD himself: "Cross-posting because it's relevant")...

Re: American Dream: Supporter of Ukrainian fascism on RI

Postby Elvis » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:20 pm

- AmericanDream is suspended for one year. This forced sabbatical is not lightly given, nor is it by any means solely a result of the arguments given by Jack and others here. For all the reasons cited in this thread, and by so many other members over many years now, AD's banishment has been on the table since long before I became a moderater. This fact was volunteered to me in my "orientation" so it is not just the wish or view of a few noisy, partisan posters, but rather a recurring, strongly expressed theme among a broad range of longtime members and moderators, and the natural consequence of AD's habitual trollery.
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby streeb » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:24 pm

We've been had
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby vondardanelle » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:38 pm

long-time lurker, i appreciate my comments carry alot less/no weight, but felt compelled to chime in a jesus christ and maybe a long sighhhh at that "open letter". i stopped reading almost everything posted by AD years ago as I was really not into his writing/copy-pasting (don't mean that as an insult, and obviously some posts get read in different threads) and that's been fine for me but it's probably alot easier for a lurker. but i really thought that wombat really said it the best here, 4 years ago: http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?p=553948#p553948

my first reaction to that "letter" was to have a good laugh, but then i saw elvis' resignation and yeah, what a giant shame. moderating is clearly a thankless job and i think all the mods here have not only done their best but done a good job trying to balance everything. i think everyone who regularly posts here, if they maybe take a step back for a minute, forget every/anything else on the board at the moment, and read that again...i don't know how anyone could have a reaction different to Cordelia's. many disagreements here, and the post-2016 world is an unending trash fire etc... but in the spirit of the season, maybe let's all try to at least shake our heads at that preposterous "letter".

happy holidays, everyone.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:15 pm

.

To guruilla: a number of us have the same questions you do. To this point, they remain unanswered.

I don't have a FBook account, but if there is any feedback provided by J.Wells, I'm sure many of us would appreciate reproducing the response here.

Vondardanelle: appreciate your insight/perspective, particularly as a long-time lurker.

Frankly, re-reading that thread you linked, it remains inexplicable that AD hasn't been banned outright some time ago.
His M.O. has been called out repeatedly, by numerous current/former members here, and yet is permitted to persist, even AFTER a mod recently suspended him for a year.

I can fully appreciate streeb's last reply above: "we've been had."
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby guruilla » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:13 pm

No response so far from JW at FB.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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