Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:53 am

See, it's good to open the dialogue.

Doesn't even matter what people are saying. Just get them talking. Smooths out the energy, lets everyone get things out of their system.

That way instead of externalizing and projecting our 'personal karmic battles' in the threads, we're focused and present, the necessary state for doing productive work.

Also while we're talking, we influence each other. Even if we agree to disagree, the discussion changes how we'll approach things in the future, has a positive effect.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby 82_28 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:10 am

Moderators have no authority, especially when one doesn't "believe in" authority. It's a give and take and I am only here to break shit up should something lame arise. I don't know the full low down on what went down because I can't watch this shit like a hawk, especially because there are times of day and week where this place is miserably slow, but I cannot. When I jumped into the "fray" as a mod it was nonstop alerts and shit from various members and it really threw me. I didn't even check RI for around a week or more. I just couldn't take the disappointing "infighting" that suddenly I could see. It was a bummer and a half! Anything mods can do is essentially peer upon a "semi" more powerful dated interface in which you can delete shit, move shit, we can even edit your shit. Rest assured, this will never happen.

I was once asked when I worked a bar for 10 years if I wanted to start managing. I said, I will help manage shit, but I do not want the title. I didn't want the "existential" responsibility of "hiring and firing". I didn't want to yell at people from a place of "authority". I cultivated friendships that last to this day in my restaurant -- we had very little turnover. I had the physical keys to a restaurant/bar and the codes to everything but never once ever used them -- well I used the the keys to lock up. See, this is why I have used this analogy in the past. People are people. Unlike a bar, nobody can steal shit here, but feelings can still be hurt and that is why I do not use any management methods other than the power of words and expression. But I guess I could with a click of the mouse make one "go away". Not happening. Ever. Unless of course well, you know the drill. All we are really doing is talking and sharing information. This shall be maintained.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:48 am

If I were able to post after 30 hours, it would have been helpful if I knew it but nobody told me anything at all. Anyway, I will keep posting material that includes criticisms of murder and torture in Syria, by whatever parties are involved. I will use my best call as to where to post them. I will not submit to any implied pressures to censor my content above and beyond the policies which are supposed to apply equally to all of us.

You know, posting can also be a thankless job. I put a great deal of time ane energy into selecting, excerpting and formatting various articles that I think are relevant and useful. The vast majority I restrict myself to particular self-chosen threads because I want to disrupt/fight less, even though I often think that "dissenting" perspectives are very important to be represented here.

I don't appreciate being mistreated, having intense negativity projected upon me from people that are believers in ideas that I don't buy but I continue anyway, despite years and years of such treatment. Why? Because I think it matters. Because I think that every person matters.

None of us here should be abused in any way. The moderators are supposed to be helping and it is incumbent upon them to think carefully about what they're doing, even more than the rest of us. We are all human and we all matter.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby 82_28 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:04 am

I shouldn't have used the phrase "yell at people". I meant, even know that I was in charge of them. Nobody is in charge here, "rest assured". We're all contributors and I appreciate, as a member and not a "mod" every last one of you.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:55 am

American Dream » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:48 am wrote:You know, posting can also be a thankless job.


It's not a fucking job, man, grow up.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:15 am

Coming from someone with such an incredible work ethic as you, I will take that as a sign that I must be doing something right. That's all you'll get from me here, however.
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Postby Perelandra » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Image
“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:26 pm

dada, my previous post on the preceding page was in response to your post with your opinions that you have subsequently deleted or edited out. That leaves my responding commentary out of context for readers of this thread. It would be appreciated if you would have the courage of your convictions long enough for the responses to them to be understood in that context, or at least leave the record intact as you change your position in reaction to helpful advice. Altered, expurgated and censored exchanges are unfair to the accuracy of the sequence of posts and confusing to the readers, as any jury or court would attest - or any historian would acknowledge. Let's keep the record straight here too.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:55 pm

No, no, everything I posted in this thread is exactly as I originally posted it, my friend. I just checked. Same as it was yesterday.

And really, it's here nor there. This was a lesson in moderation for Elvis. When the issue is a subjective matter, dialogue and discussion are a simple way to resolve things. My opinions are just my opinions, I'm not saying I'm right, just saying my opinions.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:23 pm

No, your original post that I was responding to was your declaration to Elvis that he could be a moderator OR a discussion participant with subjective views – not both. You edited that out after I disagreed and explained why.

Elvis, as a new moderator, is trying selflessly to make fair decisions about board protocol and problematic posts. You and AmericanDream continue to argue challenge his decisions and actions over your posts. You are making his thankless job even more unwanted and now he is reconsidering his role. Some of us don’t appreciate your harassing him because you consider yourselves faultless. All of us have flaws.

Some even try to revise history and edit past posts to appear better.

Devious deception, denial and disingenuousness in driving a moderator out of a valued, voluntary role is not appreciated by board members.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:37 pm

You mean this post?

dada » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:10 pm wrote:Yes, this is all fine, Elvis. The point is that since you are mod, you have a responsibility to the board members to act like one. If you want to be and act like just another non-mod poster, then do that. It's one or the other. Either way is fine with me, I appreciate what all of the posters here bring to the board.


Right there the whole time. Glad we could clear that up.

As for the rest, it's all fine, peartreed. Really. I hear you, and understand where you are coming from.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Sounder » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:42 pm

Rhetoric drowns out and is not compatible with collaborative discussion. So it makes sense that many are put off by agenda pushing material. The constant gaslighting is wearing thin.


American Dream » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:48 am wrote:
You know, posting can also be a thankless job.



Wombat wrote...
It's not a fucking job, man, grow up.


Do you know that? It may be his Freudian slip is showing.

How could it matter to be banned for a week?
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:30 am

I think rhetoric and agenda pushing are two different things. Rhetoric is using trope-laden, flowery language in an attempt to make a case when content is lacking. Bullshit, basically. Many writers depend on rhetoric to push agendas which suffer from a poverty of content, yes. Most journalists fancy themselves to be 'skilled at rhetoric.' One of the benefits of critical thinking is that doing it makes it relatively easy to see through the bullshit to the lack of content underneath.

That being said, I agree that both rhetoric and agenda pushing are not compatible with collaborative discussion. Although 'discussion' itself, debate and discourse, aren't as good as dialogue and conversation where collaboration is concerned.

But see, I think the post above this one is coming a bit too close to 'insinuation of disinfo agent,' which is against the general guidelines, the few basic rules this board has. I think upholding the general guidelines is a task for the mod role. On matters that don't fall under the general guidelines, that's the place for the board to make decisions. In those cases, the mod role is for implementing decisions reached by the members.

One other thing I would add is that disinfo agents are all kinds of stupid. An intelligent person can use them, play them, make them spin in speedy little circles. Stunted creatures living pitiful lives, especially the ones with phds. I mean, a paid troll isn't even a real troll. How sad is that?

Another other thing I would add is that I have to agree, posting is not a job. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Sounder » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:27 am

dada wrote...
One of the benefits of critical thinking is that doing it makes it relatively easy to see through the bullshit to the lack of content underneath.


When critical thinking only extends to ideas one disagrees with while avoiding criticism of the ideas one might, at least in the abstract, agree with, we fail in our use of critical thinking.

For instance, yes I would like no borders, in about five thousand years when natural evolution of consciousness prepares the space. Yet common sense, the historical record as well as critical thinking suggest that the current drive to preempt national sovereignty creates untold levels of suffering. As seen recently in Libya, Syria, Ukraine and so many other countries, too numerous to count.

Here is a pretty much random quote referring to the project:

1931 -- In a speech to the Institute for the Study of International Affairs at Copenhagen) historian Arnold Toynbee said:

"We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local nation states of the world. All the time we are denying with our lips what we are doing with our hands...."


One other thing I would add is that disinfo agents are all kinds of stupid. An intelligent person can use them, play them, make them spin in speedy little circles.


I disagree, disinfo agents are neither stupid nor even 'bad' people, they are simply people that have allowed their idealism to wash out the proper use of rationality.

Another other thing I would add is that I have to agree, posting is not a job. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong.


AD said it was a thankless job. Well yes, the public approval rating for anti-fa is down to 18%, so while the 'public' may not thank AD, I do.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:02 am

Yes, I'm certainly not saying I'm right, about anything, or wrong. Six billion people means six billion unique reality tunnels, I'm aware of this.

For me, the greatest value in critical thinking is in its ability to turn on itself, critique itself. It's a subversive method, a way of 'bringing the hidden things to light.' I have a natural curiosity about what hidden things in myself I may bring to light by practicing it, and by critiquing 'critical thought,' itself. Anything beyond that is just me sharing my opinions on critical thinking, what I've learned from the experience of using the method. But since I can't escape the fact that those are my opinions, which I'm broadcasting from inside my reality tunnel, I try not to let that bother me. Once critical thought turns outward, it has already become something of lesser value to me. I view this as simply a byproduct of using the method inwardly, where I find it useful.

But I didn't mean to start a debate about disinfo agents. When I'm talking about disinfo agents, assume I'm speaking directly to disinfo agents. Taunting, not opinionating.
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