Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Moderators: DrVolin, Elvis, Jeff

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:46 pm

Doesn't even matter what people are saying. Just get them talking. Smooths out the energy, lets everyone get things out of their system.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2kpFRpkGks
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6031
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:31 pm

Well, I expected calls for my head, you're an understanding and forgiving lot. I was perhaps hardest on myself; suspending someone by mistake really shook my confidence and it took a week to regain focus on work, practice etc. My mortification was complete. But I got a free lesson in moderation (you're very kind, Dada). I took additional week away to continue to concentrate on making my landlord happy, and when he's happy I'm much happier too. Now I've had some great reading to catch up on, reminding me why I always return.

So, the reign of terror continues. Just kidding. :bigsmile


AD, just be glad that Perelandra is not a moderator... :wink

Perelandra wrote:Image







Iamwhomiam, that short film got me. Funny and touching, thanks. "I'll be damned if I'm goin' all the way to Oklahoma for a hug!" :lol:
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 6283
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:46 pm

That doesn't seem very "professional" of you Elvis. I urge you to cultivate more detachment.

I believe you are sincere in your beliefs- as am I- but those who wield the power of moderator really have to put their personal axes to grind far, far, away in the very back of the drawer.

Are you ready, willing and able to do that?

Sincerely, and I do wish you well,

A.D.

Elvis » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:31 pm wrote:Well, I expected calls for my head, you're an understanding and forgiving lot. I was perhaps hardest on myself; suspending someone by mistake really shook my confidence and it took a week to regain focus on work, practice etc. My mortification was complete. But I got a free lesson in moderation (you're very kind, Dada). I took additional week away to continue to concentrate on making my landlord happy, and when he's happy I'm much happier too. Now I've had some great reading to catch up on, reminding me why I always return.

So, the reign of terror continues. Just kidding. :bigsmile


AD, just be glad that Perelandra is not a moderator... :wink

Perelandra wrote:Image
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:21 pm

.

I intentionally ignored/didn't read the below comment from peartreed when initially posted as a means to avoid any more bickering than necessary.

After reading it today for the first time, however, I'm compelled to respond to this crap.

peartreed » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:50 pm wrote:When others “pile on” simply to overwhelm the target of that ire with uninvited additional group pressure, often obviously motivated by a simple desire to sadistically participate in the persecution of a sensitive or unpopular or outnumbered opponent, it becomes apparent that is simply bullying by sycophantic followers to compound the continuing cruelty and crush the victim under the weight of majority rule and dominance. They, again, want to join in on the follow-up group violence and vicarious smothering.

Often these bullies are less articulate, admiring wannabes only capable of copying, quoting and imitating others, rather than expressing their personal but elaborating perspectives that add valuable insight into the issues in dispute. They do, however, specialize in juvenile insult and baiting and the thrill of vicarious violence. “Yes Men” applies.

Avatars are also often revealing of intended image projection and intent, such as, “Belligerent Savant” can also be translated as, “Aggressively Angry Know-It-All”. That implied arrogance, superiority and lack of compassionate sympathy are bully traits. It is not surprising such a personality ridicules friendship, faith and soulful music imagery.


Littered with fiction and libel.

The overwhelming majority of the content I've typed in this forum have been my own words, except for when I quote/reference articles or replies from other forum members to help illustrate a point (or otherwise agree with another member's comment). Since when would that be frowned upon or considered a "yes man" tactic? My views ARE MY OWN.

This is far from the first time you've attempted to address alleged insults by.... hurling your own insults at others. In what school of thought is this considered effective?
Do you also scoff at smokers while pausing to take a drag on your own cigarette?

Also: this nonsense about "bullying" and "insults". Please CITE and QUOTE any instance where you found my comments to include specific insults to a forum member, or examples of bullying. I'm sure I've had my moments where I was salty to a forum member, and I've had my share of disagreements with others -- as many other long-standing forum members invariably would -- but I don't recall a single instance of "bullying" or outright insults, certainly not like (for example) those you've thrown in my direction. Share your 'proof' with the forum members here so they can render their own opinion about these purported incidents, or otherwise STFU with the fanciful tales.

Disagreement with another's views or posting tactics does not = "insults" and/or "bullying". Must that be spelled out?

Lastly: I've never been suspended here. Not once. Either the mods aren't doing their jobs fleshing out these alleged instances of bullying/insults, or the claims of bullying/insults are specious. I'll leave it to y'all to determine which.

Signing off, folks. Enjoy your sandbox.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Blue » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:50 pm

Belligerent Savant » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:21 pm wrote:
Also: this nonsense about "bullying" and "insults". Please CITE and QUOTE any instance where you found my comments to include specific insults to a forum member, or examples of bullying. I'm sure I've had my moments where I was salty to a forum member, and I've had my share of disagreements with others -- as many other long-standing forum members invariably would -- but I don't recall a single instance of "bullying" or outright insults, certainly not like (for example) those you've thrown in my direction. Share your 'proof' with the forum members here so they can render their own opinion about these purported incidents, or otherwise STFU with the fanciful tales.

Disagreement with another's views or posting tactics does not = "insults" and/or "bullying". Must that be spelled out?

Lastly: I've never been suspended here. Not once. Either the mods aren't doing their jobs fleshing out these alleged instances of bullying/insults, or the claims of bullying/insults are specious. I'll leave it to y'all to determine which.

Signing off, folks. Enjoy your sandbox.


I must say that RI has always seemed like a clubby place. If you believe that bullying is nonsense here, then you have not been on the receiving end of it. Now that's not to say that I don't agree with some of your complaints about the slad spam. But she is what she is and does what she does.
User avatar
Blue
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:39 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:23 pm

As usual, BS, you have moved my comments out of the context of the subject and the thread they were written for, and copied them into a separate thread in isolation, so you can respond ten days late and without the relevant, accompanying 20 plus pages of commentary that was the actual basis of my critique and complaint.

For context, read the entire series of posts in the thread, “Re: Skripal: Theresa May set to hit back Russia over spy att…”. The originating OP was seemslikeadream.

Also, as usual, your posts in that thread were mostly copying, echoing, repeating, quoting and commending other members for their criticisms, mostly about the OP SLaD. In particular I was referring to your unnecessary parroting of Wombaticus Rex and JackRiddler just to pile on and repeat their words in admonishing SLaD.

Much like you earlier, in that same thread, copied aloneword’s:

“The thread title sounds desperate, shrill and hysterical…” and,
“As such I think the thread title suits the content of the OP perfectly. A torrent of undigested hysterical propaganda copy-pasta vomited onto the screen.”

BS, you don’t need to repeat contrary, controversial forum member opinions and echo insults simply to board the bully bandwagon. If you, instead, can take the time to read, absorb and comprehend the thread subject matter and the civil exchanges about the content, then offer your own original thinking on that topic. Individual perspectives are welcome. Otherwise you are just badgering in the joy of juvenile joust.

That’s not the only thread you’ve been in, mostly reposting and imitating other critical voices in a group onslaught against one lone recipient of your collective disfavor. Others here have noted and condemned that same bullying behavior.

I’m not going to copy the posts at issue either. Your dreary duplicating is enough.

Since then others have made progress in together improving post format issues. Join in that positive group activity instead.
User avatar
peartreed
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:53 am

^^^^ I think this is a good thread to hash out these issues, rather than interrupting other threads with drawn-out off-topic sidebars.


peartreed wrote:In particular I was referring to your unnecessary parroting of Wombaticus Rex and JackRiddler just to pile on and repeat their words

peartreed wrote:you don’t need to repeat contrary, controversial forum member opinions and echo insults simply to board the bully bandwagon.



I understand why B.S. is upset with these remarks. Noting agreement with other posters does not constitute bullying, it's not a "bandwagon."


WHO AGREES WITH ME?! :jumping: :wink
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 6283
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:56 am

Belligerent Savant wrote:Signing off, folks. Enjoy your sandbox.


We'll leave the light on for you. You'll be missed. :basicsmile
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 6283
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:39 am

It isn’t the simple act of copying or quoting another board member’s post that is the issue. Like I tried to explain to BS, it is the context in which it is done and the purpose of it. My objection is to bullying. Specifically, when a critical comment is copied just to add volume to a criticism, or to join in on several members attacking another, for the purpose of increasing the pressure on an already outnumbered participant here.

Negativity amplified only makes the atmosphere more toxic. Unless it offers new insight, hold the "me too" meanness.

We all know the contentious issue of SLAD’s volume of copy/pasted posts is the cause of what has been an ongoing, often personalized, common complaint at RI. The understandable reaction has often been highly defensive self-justification and, under extreme duress from several attackers, a retaliation of acrimony in kind. It most often resulted in a defiant repeat of the form, until some very recent compromise.

I have repeatedly objected to the group action of ganging up on one person’s style of contributing, especially when it takes the added form of cruel, personal insult. So I call it out when I see it. When an argument is ongoing, repeated group shouting is overwhelming. All of us recognize bullying when it is so often underway, and we know it gets no results except for heightened angry emotions and more discord.

The context is key. So is a repetitive echoing of continuous criticism by several members so damaging to so many threads over the years.

Recently, as a new moderator, stillrobertpaulsen (SRP) made great progress working openly and behind the scenes here using private messages to the people involved most often in this forum issue. His technique was calm reason and explanation, creating new forum section changes for posting current events and research, and an interpersonal but empathetic dialogue with many members to work out solutions. His understanding on how to limit and contain rancor was essential. 82_28 supported that effort with SRP and they were making progress.

When SRP left the old conflicts began to emerge again, mostly by the same old instigators, most recently in the thread where only part of my message was extracted and quoted out of context. Again, it was isolated and edited down selectively by BS to expose only his objections, not his multiple copied posts in that long thread repeating others' critical words.

So if Elvis wants to agree with BS and conduct a vote to get a group consensus to support members voting this issue, or another member, down by volume, that would also be a form of piling on. I think that just invites more acrimony. Count me out. Group pressure didn’t work before either. Trying to settle the issue by piling on more critical opinions about the past doesn't address the fix that's already now underway.

I support strong, individual, original voices on either side of the issue when the commentary is civil, constructive and considerate of all.

I support copying worthwhile, on-topic posts and quotes, even commendations of others generally. I simply object when that is done just to add volume and noise to all the bullying.
User avatar
peartreed
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:10 am

Peartreed, it's cool but we have very different interpretations of how the problems grow and who is more responsible. I don't agree that disruptive behavior must be excused because someone is "sensitive" and I don't agree that several people endorsing a comment consitutes "gangsterism" (really?!). If more and more people are agreeing with the comment, maybe that should tell us something.

I hope you agree that your remark below is unnecessarily personal in nature; your translation ascribes all sorts of damning qualities to a personality of someone you don't know.

peartreed » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:50 pm wrote:
Avatars are also often revealing of intended image projection and intent, such as, “Belligerent Savant” can also be translated as, “Aggressively Angry Know-It-All”. That implied arrogance, superiority and lack of compassionate sympathy are bully traits. It is not surprising such a personality ridicules friendship, faith and soulful music imagery.




Btw there will be no ostracism by "vote" so forget about that. :basicsmile

Post volume is up to the posters, if they got the time, it ain't no crime. Some think excessive post quantity is selfish; I don't know, each person has to draw their own line.

What many folks, myself included here, object to is mile-long, overly-defensive re-hashes bristling with prickly retorts, whether in response to even mild disagreement or constructive criticism. Besides the main problem of stifling discussion, it just looks bad to readers and to posterity (this shit is being archived).


But yeah, things are getting better. As a bandmate once said, "Dammit, we're gonna make this family work!!" :hrumph
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 6283
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:15 pm

We all form our impressions of other members here over time by their posts, commentary and posting style and history. Few know the real personalities behind the contributions on display here. We all form our own reputations and image.

My observation was that BS’s chosen avatar suited the image he was projecting here with his frequently copied, aggressive and angry personal judgments of others.

I’ve also been aware of your position on the issues, Elvis, before and after you became a moderator, by your exchanges with SLAD and others here about that.

It doesn’t surprise me that you characterize the attacks on SLAD as, “mild disagreements or constructive criticism” and her response as, “mile-long overly-defensive re-hashes bristling with prickly retorts”. Your references to, “excessive post quantity” as “stifling” is also consistent with your known attitude about it.

And the issue isn’t the result of the abuse target’s “sensitivity”. It is about the group dynamic involved in bullying a member incessantly and ceaselessly over time about the same post volume issue, often repeating personalized insults from that herd’s harassment. I’m trying to get the group to disband into positive one-on-one action.

Your predecessor, SRP, as moderator, put aside personal judgment to implement a strategy of respectful dialogue, both openly and via PM, to the main players in the conflict and, in doing so objectively and fairly, worked out a viable compromise that has barely had a chance to take effect - before the old wolf pack again arose to howl.

I’m glad your bandmate said, “We’re going to make this family work”. I hope that wasn’t from the bandwagon I’ve been referring to. I do wish you every success.

It's appropriate that this discussion takes place on 9/11, a date commemorating another cruel group action that had devastating impact. While there's no comparison to scale, the big lessons in life can also apply to the smaller issues and teach us mutual tolerance, respect and consideration in defusing unnecessary conflict. I have a very strong aversion to surprise group attacks.
User avatar
peartreed
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:35 pm

This a sad and pensive day for i and many others. It seems that the neo-cohort was let loose on that day and are still wreaking their havoc. Not only have they not been stopped, they, and their MSM arm, seem stronger than ever.

peartreed wrote...
We all form our impressions of other members here over time by their posts, commentary and posting style and history.


My impressions turn on content. BS, Jack, WR, and many others provide cogent reflections on given situations. For smart people, even if they have an agenda, they don't go around beating people over the head with it. That's tacky.

Few know the real personalities behind the contributions on display here. We all form our own reputations and image.


Well we do get at least a whiff of others personalities as displays are flashed about.
I make allowances for the medium, and given my tendency to hold to contrary opinions, have indeed been on the receiving end of some nasty retorts. But so what, if one is not up for the challenge perhaps silence would have been a better option.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Sounder
 
Posts: 3871
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:07 pm

One of my mentors in my formative years taught me to respect the individuality of others and their right to that individuality. I’ve also grown to admire many non-conformists, people with original and refreshing perspectives not force-fed. It is often a treat to encounter a unique treatise that stimulates a new angle to consider.

That’s why I’m here. This place is an amazing resource of original thinking in action.

When it descends into partisan divisions demeaning non-conformist behavior, or pressures people to comply with majority views by group ridicule, I rebel too.

The voices of Wombaticus Rex and JackRiddler are strong, individual voices here that are influential to others whether or not we agree with them. With leadership comes responsibility to set an example, since others will follow – invited or not.

Not only the cogent content comes across, so does the character and sincerity and passion of the writer’s principles as evidenced by their interactions with others.

So is the persistent, albeit partisan voice of seemslikeadream with unique delivery. We all need to respect our individual differences as contributing to the whole.

Silence on a discussion forum tends to defeat the purpose of valuable exchange, but it has its place during the chaos of conflict.
User avatar
peartreed
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:59 pm

To be clear, being contrary is different from being a non-conformist. The second has a marketable gloss that can be put on it, while the first is shit that people really do not want to hear.


One of my mentors in my formative years taught me to respect the individuality of others and their right to that individuality. I’ve also grown to admire many non-conformists, people with original and refreshing perspectives not force-fed. It is often a treat to encounter a unique treatise that stimulates a new angle to consider.


Yes, quite so, go dada. As to the non-conformist issue; while some are to be admired, some,-ahem, are giving non-conformity a bad name.

That’s why I’m here. This place is an amazing resource of original thinking in action.


Yeah, more like; original thinking inaction. Sorry, couldn't resist.
When it descends into partisan divisions demeaning non-conformist behavior, or pressures people to comply with majority views by group ridicule, I rebel too.


That's funny, given that the non-conforming behavior you speak of is the posting of multiple pages of MSM coverage of current events; a primary source of conformity inducing behavior. All while used in such a way as to displace discussion relating to said topic, while at same time claiming that said introduced discussion is off topic. It is a tactic that should be challenged and not accepted.

The voices of Wombaticus Rex and JackRiddler are strong, individual voices here that are influential to others whether or not we agree with them. With leadership comes responsibility to set an example, since others will follow – invited or not.

Not only the cogent content comes across, so does the character and sincerity and passion of the writer’s principles as evidenced by their interactions with others.

So is the persistent, albeit partisan voice of seemslikeadream with unique delivery. We all need to respect our individual differences as contributing to the whole.


What is so unique about number or sound volume?
Or are you referring to the 'defense' SLAD puts up to others criticism? Because from here, that looks like an all too common modern attribute also.

Silence on a discussion forum tends to defeat the purpose of valuable exchange, but it has its place during the chaos of conflict.


Some of RI's best posters, post very little.

For instance, C2W? is still the best.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Sounder
 
Posts: 3871
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby peartreed » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:53 pm

Possibilities for participation involve preferences of different personalities posting, from taking apart, or parsing other posts pejoratively for nit-picking pleasure to presenting one’s personal perspective with a plethora of pages of partisan political propaganda, to part-time pursuit of pompous preaching opportunities to prevent paralytic paroxysm of peevish pedantry, to putting out paranoid pants-on-fire panics.

And everything in between.

My own penchant for promoting interpersonal peace persistently prevails.

I could continue commenting on the characteristics of conformity, nonconformity and contrarians but my concentration is collapsing into the call of a comfy couch.
User avatar
peartreed
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests