LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Danbury, Conn., April 21 -- Samuel Langhorne Clemens, "Mark Twain," died at 22 minutes after 6 tonight. Beside him on the bed lay a beloved book- it was Carlyle's "French Revolution" -and near the book his glasses, pushed away with a weary sigh a few hours before. Too weak to speak clearly, "Give me my glasses," he had written on a piece of paper. He had received them, put them down, and sunk into unconsciousness from which he glided almost imperceptibly into death. He was in his seventy-fifth year.



The complete works of Mark Twain all 24 volumes has been with me since the day I was born .....it was a present from my God parents

Cordelia » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:53 am wrote:^^^
Thanks for the heads-up; fwiw.....here's an audio-reading......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2XxojuE6b8


“Lying, the telling of beautiful untrue things, is the proper aim of Art.”

~ Oscar Wilde from 'The Decay Of Lying'
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby dada » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 am

“Lying, the telling of beautiful untrue things, is the proper aim of Art.”
~ Oscar Wilde from 'The Decay Of Lying'


I often agree with Oscar, but not on this point. Art is aiming for more than a bourgeois escapism. And the best art isn't aiming for anything at all.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Cordelia » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:58 am

“Art is what you can get away with.” ~ Andy Warhol

“Art is in the eye of the beholder, and everyone will have their own interpretation.” ~ E.A. Bucchianeri

:backtotopic: “The nicer I am, the more people think I'm lying.” ~ Andy Warhol
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:31 pm

^^^^ "There's a sucker born every minute" --- David Hannum

I think it fair to say both Trump and Kim are liars. I find it incredible they'll be allowed to meet, both being unrestrained by intermediary handlers. Perhaps Trump already has served his (their) purpose and is no longer useful, I dunno.

I have an eerie feeling about them meeting. Kim's going to pull out a revolver and put a bullet right between Trump's eyes, shooting him dead. Really, what would the repercussions be? What could we do in way of retaliation?
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Laodicean » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:44 pm

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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Cordelia » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:03 am

Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:31 pm wrote:

I think it fair to say both Trump and Kim are liars. I find it incredible they'll be allowed to meet, both being unrestrained by intermediary handlers. Perhaps Trump already has served his (their) purpose and is no longer useful, I dunno.

I have an eerie feeling about them meeting. Kim's going to pull out a revolver and put a bullet right between Trump's eyes,


They’ll probably just play video games, like President Underwood and his election opponent during their one-on-one meeting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz2K9Fq73os


“The hard truth is that sometimes we need to lie to ourselves to continue to live” ― Bangambiki (I’d leave out ‘sometimes’)

Two stellar poets on tact and compassion in protecting self and others from the cruelty of ‘truth’...

"Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.”
~ Edna St. Vincent Millay ~

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant –
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth’s superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind –

~ Emily Dickinson ~

Edit to add, the older I get, the more I believe ........

“There is no truth. There is only perception.” ~ Gustave Flaubert
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Cordelia » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:26 pm

"A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbor's throat without having his neighbor notice it."

Trygve Lie, the first Secretary-General of the United Nations

Image

Was Lie lying, or speaking about UN diplomacy and/or himself?
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby dada » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:58 pm

Nothing is true, all is permitted. I'm sure you've all heard this enigmatic phrase before.

If nothing is true, then the statement "nothing is true" is false. Therefore something is true. It's one of those things.

The phrase taken as a whole is usually understood as 'nothing is true, therefore all is allowed" or "because everything is allowed, nothing is true." Also "If nothing is true, what is everything?" with "permitted" being the answer. "Nothing exists of itself, everything that exists is allowed to exist."

All this leaves the question, "who is the permitter?" which takes us to anthropomorphic ideas of an authoritarian, jealous god or gods, wise human authorities, the atheists' self. Maybe a "permission without a permitter" or some such philosophical contortion.

But if the first half of the phrase is false, maybe we could try looking at the entire phrase as false, and see what happens. All is not permitted. Therefore everything that exists is breaking the law, defying authority.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:47 pm

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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby minime » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:07 pm

dada » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:58 am wrote:Nothing is true, all is permitted. I'm sure you've all heard this enigmatic phrase before.

If nothing is true, then the statement "nothing is true" is false. Therefore something is true. It's one of those things.

The phrase taken as a whole is usually understood as 'nothing is true, therefore all is allowed" or "because everything is allowed, nothing is true." Also "If nothing is true, what is everything?" with "permitted" being the answer. "Nothing exists of itself, everything that exists is allowed to exist."

All this leaves the question, "who is the permitter?" which takes us to anthropomorphic ideas of an authoritarian, jealous god or gods, wise human authorities, the atheists' self. Maybe a "permission without a permitter" or some such philosophical contortion.

But if the first half of the phrase is false, maybe we could try looking at the entire phrase as false, and see what happens. All is not permitted. Therefore everything that exists is breaking the law, defying authority.


The provenance of the axiom is problematic, first and last. It seems that the original saying is more accurately translated as 'nothing is absolute reality', and retranslated by William Burroughs (not the most reliable narrator after lunch). There is an equivocation (likely not deliberate) on the word 'true'. It is not 'true' in the logical sense, not subject to syllogistic logic. More about moral relativism.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby norton ash » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:18 pm

Good debate here on Dostoevsky's contribution to 'everything is permitted.'

https://infidels.org/library/modern/and ... evsky.html

"If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Dostoevsky never actually wrote that line, though so often is it attributed to him that he may as well have. It has become the almost reflexive response of believers when faced with an argument for a godless world. Without religious faith, runs the argument, we cannot anchor our moral truths or truly know right from wrong. Without belief in God we will be lost in a miasma of moral nihilism.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby dada » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:53 pm

Dostoevsky allegedly wrote:"If God does not exist, everything is permitted."


This assumes that if there is a god, said god must be an authoritarian god. But what if god was anti-authoritarian, or an anarchist?

Also, I don't think it follows that if there is no god, we have chaos. God or no god, there are always rules to break.

minime wrote:The provenance of the axiom is problematic, first and last. It seems that the original saying is more accurately translated as 'nothing is absolute reality', and retranslated by William Burroughs (not the most reliable narrator after lunch). There is an equivocation (likely not deliberate) on the word 'true'. It is not 'true' in the logical sense, not subject to syllogistic logic. More about moral relativism.


I still think logic can be applied. And if logic is not permitted to be used in this case, I'll apply it anyway, defying the authority that says it isn't allowed. Logic without a permit.

If nothing is absolute reality, the statement "nothing is absolute reality" is not an absolute reality. Therefore there may be an absolute reality. May be in the sense of "it is a possibility," not "I will allow it."

I didn't bringing the provenance of the phrase into it purposefully. We have no way of knowing if the old man of the mountain ever said anything like it. But since you did, I'll question what "reliability" means for a narrator. I'd say for a narrator, reliability is not a matter of truth, but being internally consistent. Judging from this perspective, I think Burroughs is a more reliable narrator post-lunch. Cities of the Red Night, Western Lands, Port of Saints are more reliable texts.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby minime » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:10 pm

Pretzel Logic. I'm a big Steely Dan fan from way back. Mu major. William Burroughs. It all makes sense now.

I stepped up on the platform
The man gave me the news
He said, You must be joking son
Where did you get those shoes?
Where did you get those shoes?
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Elvis » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm

"You're lying."

"I know. But just hear me out—"
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: LIES, LIARS, AND LYING

Postby Cordelia » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:27 pm

Image

The Epimenides Paradox

‘Epimenides the Cretan says, “All the Cretans are liars”,
but Epimenides is himself a Cretan; therefore he is himself a liar. But if he be a liar, what he says is untrue, and consequently the Cretans are veracious; but Epimenides is a Cretan, and therefore what he says is true; saying the Cretans are liars, Epimenides is himself a liar, and what he says is untrue. Thus we may go on alternately proving that Epimenides and the Cretans are truthful and untruthful simultaneously’. So, if a Cretan states all Cretans are liars, is he being truthful or untruthful? ‘Tis the question, readers.

This is a brilliant paradox from the mind of Cretan philosopher Epimenides of Knossos. ‘Epimenides was a Cretan who made one immortal statement: “All Cretans are liars”.’ But from this arises a paradox of self-reference. Has Epimenides spoken the truth? If so, he is a liar. But if he’s a liar, what he said isn’t true, and all Cretans are truthful. But Epimenides was a Cretan, ergo what he says must be true. If you’re not a liar, you’re truthful. But if we believe that it is true, then what he says must be untrue. You see? This could go on for a while.

Contiued............https://tocontriveandjive.wordpress.com ... s-paradox/

Image
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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