Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Sounder » Fri May 11, 2018 10:28 am

Heaven Swan wrote...
In fact I'd like to brainstorm ideas for solving the problem. If pathological narcissists are abusive, and wreck relationships, families, countries and the planet, what could be done to stop them?

Identifying them and going no contact can work for individuals, but it doesn't solve the problem of narcissists and psychopaths in positions of power. There seems to be a brain scan that can identify psychopathy. If there were a reliable test for pathological narcissism, they could be restricted from certain jobs and positions or quarantined. A scarlet letter or therapy/re-education camps in this case could go a long way. I know this sounds extreme but the problems they cause are also extreme. Any thoughts or ideas?


Narcissists are a large problem in today's society, however treating symptoms will no longer cut the cheese.

Yes, I have many thoughts and ideas on the topic, expressed here in the past and generally not well received.

Anyway this society has normalized an ethic that suggests that the way to 'make a better world' is to make others think like you.

It's an absurdity when everyone knows that problems are best solved when a variety of approaches can be tested.

Out of gas for the moment but as my sig line attests, this is a topic of interest to me.

Pele's Daughter wrote...
People aren't really used to thinking in terms of predator and prey even though that would be incredibly helpful. What we've been conditioned to do is think in terms of differences such as culture, race, skin color, status, etc. Shit that doesn't matter that we can fight over while the predators continue unchecked.


Yep
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Cordelia » Fri May 11, 2018 2:02 pm

Heaven Swan » Fri May 11, 2018 10:39 am wrote:
There seems to be a brain scan that can identify psychopathy. If there were a reliable test for pathological narcissism, they could be restricted from certain jobs and positions or quarantined. A scarlet letter or therapy/re-education camps in this case could go a long way. I know this sounds extreme but the problems they cause are also extreme. Any thoughts or ideas?


A very slippery slope, methinks; immediately imagined any benign intent at re-education or therapy being co-opted by psychopathic special interests to identify, gain control of and then neutralize their threatening competitors (also, of course, to profit financially). And, 50+ years ago from Anthony Burgess novel Clockwork Orange’s ‘Ludovico Technique’......

The Ludovico technique is at the crux of how consciousness is manipulated by visual perception in A Clockwork Orange. A state sponsored program, the Ludovico technique aims to remove immorality from criminals. Prior to entering the ‘theater’, the patient is given a small dose of medication which slowly induces nausea. The patient is strapped into a chair and an apparatus keeps the eyes open. A doctor observes the progress of the patient while keeping the eyes moist. When the preparation is complete, a series of films is shown which depict scenes of violence and sexuality. As the patient is viewing the films, the medication slowly kicks in and the body creates a negative correlation with the corresponding images and sickness. This procedure is repeated for two weeks and the patient is “cured”. The basic premise is that “ultra-violence” and sex are “extracted” from the consciousness and the individual will become a productive member of society. The Ludovico technique is in it’s infancy so leading scientists find “perfect” candidates for trial runs. In A Clockwork Orange, 15 year old Alex is a boon for the ambitious project. The question to ask then is…

What’s it going be then, eh?

http://neurologues.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu ... technique/

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......followed by Big Pharma...

Ethics of Clockwork Orange – Treatment of Juvenile Delinquents with Psychiatric Drugs

Image

by Bruce Boyers

It may sound like a real life sequel to the 1962 novel, “A Clockwork Orange” and one of the most irresponsible acts imaginable—to treat at-risk kids with dangerous mood-altering psychiatric medications, simply in an effort to make them less aggressive and “more manageable.”

Yet a new study focusing on the Pennsylvania juvenile correction system finds that over a seven-year period, enough antipsychotics were ordered to “treat” one-third of the confined youth, on average, at any given time. This was according to a PublicSource analysis of drug purchasing information obtained from the Pennsylvania Department of Human Services, which operates Pennsylvania youth correctional facilities.

More..http://cchroc.org/ethics-of-clockwork-o ... ric-drugs/


Wish I felt more optimistic. Practice love, patience and avoid engaging w/toxic people as much as possible is all I can come up with right now.

(and revenge w/o any violence or physical harm; exacted creatively.....w/humor)
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat May 12, 2018 9:20 am

Pele'sDaughter » Fri May 11, 2018 8:28 am wrote:Until recently, it's been taboo to even mention their crimes and atrocities. That seems to be changing regarding sexual assault by persons in power but needs to go much farther. Perhaps that is a start. It's quite the task considering they have legions of people protecting them and enabling what they do. Are those people psychos, too?


Some may be. Others are just careerists and individualistic “don’t make waves” types. Our whole culture supports authoritarian relating as in respecting superiors, putting individual material survival first, foremost and above all else (which can lead to groveling or becoming just as scheming and cutthroat), “family first” (allow abuse at work then let off steam by abusing family members). Yes, the culture is in bad shape...

How do we create the awareness in others that will prevent these predators from getting such a firm grip on things? How do we encourage integrity when people are struggling with basic living? To me, the entire environment that the predators operate in needs to be made unsuitable for them to thrive, and that's going to take more than regulations and tests. People aren't really used to thinking in terms of predator and prey even though that would be incredibly helpful. What we've been conditioned to do is think in terms of differences such as culture, race, skin color, status, etc. Shit that doesn't matter that we can fight over while the predators continue unchecked. So, I'm thinking in general terms of how our society is functioning today and not specific instances that I might point out.


I agree with you here, and more specifically that a mass raising of awareness around abuse, trauma, styles, tactics and pathologies of predators would go a long way towards preparing the ground for real change. But I do think that the isms—sexism, racism, classism... are pillars that hold up the scaffolding of the abusive environment.

For example—Is Eric Schneiderman a narcissist? Highly likely. How did his predatory behavior play out? Through misogynistic abuse of women including racist demeaning of a woman of color “you’re my property”, etc.

I agree that the current focusing quasi exclusively on the isms does’t work and sows the incredible division we see all around us. But I think a lot of good has come with a strong focus on eliminating racism. Not so much good has come for women though, thanks to the toxicity of third wave feminism. The third wave was successfully infiltrated by the sex exploitation industry (pimps and pornographers) and turned against women by encouraging them to cheerlead their own abuse. And this mind-f**kery has been enthusiastically supported by left-wing men.

I'm also to the point that I wouldn't feel a moment of regret if they were all swept off the planet never to be seen again, but that isn't PC at all. Over and over I've tried to imagine, say, a relatively small colony of humans trying to live organically and peacefully and what would they do if they discovered a predator in their midst. As a person of integrity, how would I want that handled. Should they be expelled? Executed? Counseled?

When compared to indigenous peoples, we're almost a different species as we're so far removed from organic living. No wonder there's such a flood of seekers going on those spiritual retreats. Of course, now we've infect those places with our sickness. How did we get to this sad point in our existence?


I read somewhere that when the indigenous eskimos realized that a tribe member was psychopathic they would push them off a raft into the freezing water.
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun May 13, 2018 10:25 am

Well, after watching "I, Psychopath" the documentary on Sam Vaknin, I have to agree with Cordelia that the guy is a toxic abuser. I will still watch his videos though, since they give insight into the psychopathic or narcissistic world view.

Here's a link to a free stream of the doc in case anyone is interested. I did find it engaging and worth watching.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Cordelia » Mon May 14, 2018 12:54 pm

It bothered me that the cover image of the benign 'Narcissus' Vaknin used for his book Malignant Self Love fits more w/my image of narcissism-'light', like instagram addicts.

Image


A much more fitting image of the destructive/toxic narcissist would be a succubus or incubus (w/or w/o the sexual connotations), as in Fuseli’s ‘Nightmare’ imo.

ImageImage

Results from a new study, fwiw......

It's Official: Power Creates A Narcissist

For certain people, holding a position of power can unleash their inner narcissist

By Linda McSweeny, University of Melbourne

Until now, it was assumed narcissists tended to clinch powerful positions for themselves. However, recent research suggests that power itself may create narcissists.

In a paper published in the American Psychological Association’s Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, Associate Professor Nicole Mead from the University of Melbourne found that endowing people with social power inflates the socially-toxic component of narcissism called exploitation and entitlement.
“Narcissists can feel a sense of entitlement – they expect and demand respect from others as well as special privileges,” says Dr Mead, who is based in the Department of Management and Marketing in the Faculty of Business and Economics.

“They are willing to exploit others to get what they want.”

Give them power and those people can turn into oppressors and bullies.

“While power doesn’t turn everyone into a destructive tyrant, it has pernicious effects when it gets into the hands of those who want it most,” says Associate Professor Mead.

“Power increased narcissism only among those with high-baseline testosterone – people who want to achieve and retain positions of power.”


Dr Mead, a social psychologist, delved into the relationship between power and narcissism in part to help explain the socially toxic behaviours of powerful people, which she saw as resembling narcissistic behaviour.

“Those who enjoy power try to keep it even at the expense of others,” she says.

To test their theory that social power inflates narcissism among people with high testosterone, Dr Mead and her colleagues recruited 206 men and women. They took saliva samples from each participant and told them they were joining in a team dynamics study.

Each person was asked to complete tasks framed as measures of leadership abilities. All participants were told they achieved the best leadership score but only half of participants were told they would be “boss” of a group task. This meant they could control their subordinates and the rewards associated with the group task. The other half were told they had equal control over the same task.
Narcissism was assessed using the most commonly used measure of narcissism, the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. Corruption was measured with a scale that taps into people’s willingness to misuse their power.

Because men have higher testosterone levels than women, the researchers standardised testosterone levels within each gender. This means the researchers were able to examine how people react to power when they have relatively high or low testosterone levels for their gender.

The study shows that men and women with low baseline testosterone for their gender don’t become narcissists when put in a position of power.

However, those who have high testosterone levels for their gender show an increase in the exploitative-entitlement component of narcissism when bestowed with power. Increased narcissism in turn explained their enhanced willingness to misuse their power.


Power is an essential component of social life,” Associate Professor Mead says.

“Although the corrupting nature of power has been noted for centuries, the way it changes how people see themselves in relation to others remained an enigma. We thought narcissistic self-views may be a missing piece of the puzzle for understanding how power corrupts.”

The results of the study suggest that people with high testosterone may be inclined to misuse their power because having it over others makes them feel entitled to special treatment.

“This research is some of the first to look at factors that fuel the rise of narcissism and to pinpoint the change in self-views that can explain the corrupting influence of power,” says Dr Mead.

“Moreover, the work shows that the destructive effects of power were not due to narcissistic feelings of superiority but rather narcissistic feelings that one is special and should be treated accordingly. Feelings of exploitation and entitlement may help those who crave power to retain a power gap between themselves and others.”

When scanning the workplace for pro-social leaders, it’s optimal to look for “actual signs of talent, competence and skill rather than people who brag that they have those skills”, says Dr Mead.

So, beware the boss who trumpets themselves, acts with an air of domination or feels entitled to take your chair in a meeting – they may be poised to unleash their inner, lurking narcissist.

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles ... narcissist


(Could be interesting for a comparative study that tests testosterone levels in subjects who score high on empathy scales or work one-on-one w/patients & family in health care services; hospice care, for instance. :shrug: )
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Tue May 15, 2018 7:58 am

^^^
Very interesting study, but they need to define what they mean by narcissism. According the the research I've been doing, narcissism is on a spectrum. Just calling any self-centered person a narcissist is not helpful. The study claims that high-testosterone people tend to become narcissistic abusers when in positions of power over others. But supposedly narcissism begins in early childhood. I'm talking about intractable pathological narcissism here.

Here's a video by Little Shaman Healing who is a great Youtube resource.

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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby peartreed » Tue May 15, 2018 1:17 pm

As I’ve mentioned in an earlier post here (and elsewhere on the board) I’ve worked closely with narcissists from several different cultures and have noticed their commonalities, especially those of psychopathic narcissists, transcend societal and cultural influences and modifications that “civilize” most others.

It’s a bit astounding for those initially unfamiliar with the clinical definitions of narcissism to subsequently realize how many world leaders throughout history fit the condition. Even among the indigenous tribes and nations the lineage of the leaders often includes sociopathic narcissists who rise to power through “force of personality” as well as the callous use of force to get there and to hold position.

It intrigues me to find whether the origin of narcissism is mostly nurture or nature, or whether testosterone levels truly mitigate passion for power, or if sociopaths and psychopaths inherently have narcissism as their initial trigger to ride roughshod over others without an ounce of empathy. I’m also after clues to its containment.

Neuroscience seems to be developing new research and resulting techniques to help modify behavior into more socially acceptable confines, such as neurofeedback to subconsciously attune the brain and condition it to calm itself and control its more extreme reactions. I’ve seen this work wonders in therapy for autistic children.

The problem is encouraging those responsible to detect and apply the help needed before it manifests as embedded and permanent.

Another helpful development is the improved education and communication about these psychological and clinical aberrations to inform the voting public and to help everyone involved in hiring and promoting people into power positions to recognize them as warning signals. We need a universal early alarm system that detects tyrants. When narcissism and psychopath traits become blatant, ban that candidate.

As exemplified now by the tangible tyranny of Trump, ignorance really backfires! The history of the human race is manifesting mad men.
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Wed May 16, 2018 7:42 am

^^^^
Glad you and others are interested Pearrtreed. A lot of new insights and ideas can come from discussing and brainstorming with others. We need to think out of the box! The old stale ways aren't working. Maybe this line of inquiry will prove fruitful.

In the meantime here's another interesting Vaknin video. I wouldn't want him or any other psychopath or narcissist in my life, I don't want any even mildly toxic people in my intimate circle, they are destructive and the covert ones can be diabolically sneaky, but since I no longer have specimens to study one on one, I find that watching videos by an intelligent psychopath is a good way to learn


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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Cordelia » Thu May 17, 2018 7:21 am

Heaven Swan » Tue May 15, 2018 10:58 am wrote:Here's a video by Little Shaman Healing who is a great Youtube resource.



Thanks for that link Heaven Swan; it's a very timely subject for me. I listened while navigating endless phone loops trying to obtain legal/police action on an acting-out relative greatly impacted by/with toxic narcissism. I found the speaker very interesting, esp. around emotional/physical abuse damaging to toddlers and the resultant out-of-control emotions displayed by them as adults. (However, many people who have been emotionally neglected & abused as described have grow to become very compassionate & empathetic adults. Also, I think that there's a strong genetic component to both narcissism & psychopathy.)

If you’re not already familiar w/Robert Hare, he’s a psychologist who’s largely regarded among academics as the ‘expert’ on psychopathy (haven’t seen him address narcissism) and wrote the 'bible' . . fwiw, if you’re interested ........

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyvNFI24h4

Due to personal circumstances years ago, I took a crash course in psychopathy and became involved in a project conducted by a small group of psychologists and people directly (often severely) impacted by psychopathic individuals. Narcissism itself wasn’t addressed, but the consensus among researchers, as I recall, is that, ‘not all narcissists are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are narcissists’. I translate that as ‘you (maybe) can take the psychopath out of the narcissist but you can't take the narcissist out of the psychopath’. The pain and chaos created by one high on the spectrum of either disorder is staggering, as the world well knows.

If their behaviors weren’t so dangerous, I’d feel sorry for and even pity all people so endlessly lost to and in themselves.
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Thu May 17, 2018 7:13 pm

^^^
Sorry you’re having to deal with psychopathic abusers Cordelia. It’s no fun.
And thanks for posting the Hare video. I did read his book a number of years ago, along with others on the subject.

According to Little Shaman and others sociopaths and psychopaths are on the far end of the Narcissism Spectrum. They are the most dangerous and always are aiming for tangible, often monetary results from their grooming and abuse of victims, whereas less narcissististic narcissists are out for themselves but often seek “supply” or energy and attention and are less calculating, less shut down and more emotionally chaotic.

Psychopaths are less common but pathological narcissists seem to be a dime a dozen. Now that I’m learning more about narcissism I can see how so many abusive people I’ve known seem to fit the profile.

It seems quite bleak out there. In addition to the character-disordered people there are those who’ve adopted the superficial, materialistic values the culture is promoting and are steeped in envy and pettiness. And a lot of the altruistic “good”people I know are being victimized or recovering from being victimized by the sickos.

Speaking of sickos, here’s a very honest video by Vaknin in which he talks about what it’s like to be him, i.e. psychopathic.


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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat May 19, 2018 9:18 am



I found this very insightful video/podcast about how narcissists mirror our shadow selves.

I can see how this applies to a narcissist I tangled with a couple of years ago, which initiated my looking into the NPD phenomenon. I had an overwhelming pull towards her and still haven’t figured out why.

It went beyond any narc charisma she might have had, if that was a factor at all it was minuscule. I’ve considered past life connections and maybe that could explain it, but this video makes me think that the attraction was about my need to face shadow material that she mirrored back to me and helped me process.


Looking at the larger picture, we could say that the US is so attracted to Trump (the narcissist) because he mirrors back elements of our unintegrated shadow side.

That means that if, through him, we face our shadow, the outcome could be quite positive.

Thoughts?
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Cordelia » Thu May 24, 2018 8:18 am

Succinct, if elementary, blog primer on narcissistic politicians
Don’t be surprised when an insane system produces narcissistic leaders

David McElroy

Image

If you dig beneath the surface of most politicians, you’ll find a narcissist. Once you understand who narcissists really are — and what it is they crave — there’s nothing surprising about it. The only surprise is how few people notice it.

For more than 20 years, I’ve worked with dozens of politicians. By dealing with them in very stressful situations — when their careers and egos are on the line — I’ve seen sides of many of them that the public never sees. So I’m willing to say without question that most of them are narcissists. Most of them honestly believe the world revolves around them and their needs.

In casual conversation, we think of narcissists as those who are in love with themselves, but the reality is much different. A narcissist craves attention and love and respect, but he’s secretly empty on the inside. He projects a false self to the world in order to get what’s sometimes called “narcissistic supply.” He’s like an emotional vampire who desperately needs other people’s attention and admiration to survive. (You can read much more than you’ll probably ever want to know about narcissism here.)

So is it any surprise that people who crave attention and admiration from others gravitate to politics? Of course not. To these people, the entire world revolves around them and their desperate needs. They matter. Other people don’t. They can be charming and manipulative when they need to be — when they need to impress you or make you love them, so you’ll give them the attention and love they crave.

Today’s media environment suits the narcissist wonderfully. Television is there to help craft his image and make him seem important for his adoring fans. People give him money and treat him as though he’s special. Take a look at this list of potential symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and think of the arrogant politicians that we’re all familiar with. You’ll even find yourself realizing that many of the ones you agree with are like this, if you can be honest with yourself.

— Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

— Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

— Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

— Requires excessive admiration

— Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

— Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

— Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

— Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

— Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

In order to be diagnosed with this condition, a person needs to exhibit at least five of these. Frankly, I can think of very few politicians I’ve known who didn’t meet at least five of them — at least behind closed doors.

When you see politicians doing things that don’t make sense to you, realize that it’s frequently because they’re acting out psychological dysfunction that you don’t have. A politician who obsessively has one affair or fling after another isn’t necessarily chasing after sex. He’s chasing attention. He’s like an emotional vampire sucking whatever sustenance he can get out of women who make him feel important and powerful. (Those women likewise tend to have their own dysfunctional emotional needs that they’re getting out of the arrangement.)

Bill Clinton is a perfect example of a politician who sought attention from women in this way. Herman Cain might be another, if the various recent charges about him are true. Author Sam Vaknin (the first link above) would classify them as somatic narcissists. I suspect Newt Gingrich falls into his other category, the cerebral narcissist, who craves having admiration for his intelligence.

The political system we have is sick — and it attracts sick individuals to run it. We have a system that gives ultimate power over life and death and everything in between to people who have no business wielding that kind of power. Nobody does. The system makes people feel important. And the sense of importance it gives drives people who need that attention to try to gain the power. It’s a sick feedback loop for attracting sick people and giving them the attention and honor and power that their sickness craves.

The only way to escape this is to quit giving power, attention and honor to these sick people. The only way to do that is to quit elevating anyone to these lofty positions. The solution is to let people have power over their own lives. The solution is to end the coercive state.

We’ll still have to put up with narcissists around us. There are lots of them and I see them in every organization I’ve ever been a part of, almost always gravitating toward the top. (It’s easier for me to spot them because I grew up with one.) But even though we can’t do anything about narcissists in the world around us, we don’t have to give them power over us.

http://www.davidmcelroy.org/?p=7785



How can it be otherwise, when political figures, provided and rewarded w/a constant narcissistic feed, then crave and depend on it? Their term renewable careers rely on a flock of aides, news media, an adoring public, etc.. being the center of attention

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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Heaven Swan » Fri May 25, 2018 6:31 am

^^^
Thanks for posting this Cordelia, great article.

The topic is up for me as well. I keep running into politically active narcissists in my activist circles. It's frightening that they even throw themselves into grassroots, volunteer politics, where there's very little chance for monetary gain. It makes sense though if you understand that they seek "supply" (energy and attention) above all else.

Seeing the reality of this is sobering and disturbing. It makes me think of that movie "They Live" where the main character finds glasses that allow him to see that the world is largely run by frightening aliens.

In one organization it's possible to keep them out by having a core group (like a board of directors) made up of capable and solid, emotionally healthy people who are committed to keeping them out, but the pervasiveness of their participation in leadership roles in society is troubling and baffling.

I hope that Trumps flagrant narcissism may, in the long run, help us to begin dealing with this dilemma.
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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Cordelia » Sat May 26, 2018 8:10 am

^^^Apt comparison w/'They Live'; a very disturbing film! I think recognizing someone highly narcissistic is also like looking at those abstract 3D images where, if you focus, you see a sharper, defined image emerge.

Trump grandiosity seems to increase as his W.H. residency continues, and why not....how many Presidents have gotten more media attention? I fear keeping the number of 'certified' NPD individuals from reaching offices of power is kinda like trying to keep the flood from surging by putting a finger in the dyke...to much force determined to escape.

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Re: Narcissists are attracted to positions of power

Postby Elvis » Sat May 26, 2018 2:53 pm

Heaven Swan » Fri May 11, 2018 4:39 am wrote:
Elvis » Wed May 09, 2018 8:31 pm[/url]"Narcissim is a big problem, I agree. About all we can do about it, as HeavenSwan suggests, is be aware of it and adjust expectations accordingly.


I didn't say that.



Sorry; I took your word "intractable" out of context and associated it with the general consensus that narcissism is incurable. I've given it a lot of thought in the last ten years, and some study, and I think all we can do is be wary.

Wombaticus Rex has a sticky on his Twitter page that seems apt and might contain a clue:

We keep electing sociopaths because what we want from our leaders is impossible and only liars would promise it to us
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