Whither the Democrats?

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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:10 pm

:ohno:
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby dada » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:12 am

What's the problem? Cat got your tongue?
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby dada » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:19 pm

I'd like to share some further "thots," as Mark Alpiger would say, that I think are relevant to this thread. (If you disagree with my assesment, Elvis, let me know)

Intentionally or not, the "idealist vs pragmatist" discussion only serves to marginalize the positions labelled "idealist" by the labeller. (Or labeler. One "L" or two? you be the judge) It's binary logic, leads to false choices.

For example: Can the Democrats be reformed, or should they be abandoned? A helpful analogy might be the question 'if your old dog can no longer learn new tricks, should you euthanize it?

Of course not, unless you're sick in the head. What you do is train a new dog, and let the old dog live out its remaining days. It may even have a few good barks left in it.

(We could extend the analogy, say "well, what if the dog has rabies? Then it must be put down." I would say that's bringing the analogy a bit too close to calling a group of people 'vermin' or 'roaches.' Better to stay off that slippery slope.)

Historically, there are plenty of examples of how this strategy of triangulation, of 'occupying the center,' backfires spectacularly. A most recent example is the Democratic Party in the US, who by cutting off their base, cost themselves a pivotal election. We might say 'well, serves them right,' if not for the fact that the consequences of this ill-conceived strategy hurt a lot more people than just them.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby 82_28 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:59 pm

For example: Can the Democrats be reformed, or should they be abandoned? A helpful analogy might be the question 'if your old dog can no longer learn new tricks, should you euthanize it?


That is a great fucking analogy. It is such a clusterfuck of "competing" ideals that they are canceling themselves out in the long run. Don't these people see that what they are doing is fundamentally stupid? No one giving science any heed and in some (many?) cases anti-science completely taking over to ultimately control how your brain works.

It's like when I would listen to thrash music as a kid. I would ask, how much fucking faster can this shit get? But as a kid we sorta expected faster. But there are limitations to what can be comprehended, enjoyed etc. I think the "harmonies" and rhythms that can be used for both good and evil are being utilized now. Get a generation sped up and then settle it into what we are seeing now It will be hard to pick out which siren song claims this temporary prize on a temporary planet without a good contingent of people brave enough to use science.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby American Dream » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:09 pm

I'm with the radical critique.

Where Movements Go to Die: The Democrats are Draining the Resistance's Life

Image

For a brief, fleeting moment, it seemed that this time it might be different. Donald Trump’s inauguration was followed by the largest one-day protest in American history. The next week, spontaneous actions broke out across the country’s airports in response to the administration’s travel ban. People started talking about a general strike.

That was then. This is now. The upswell of political action that began three and a half months ago continues, of course, as congressional representatives meet with angry constituents across the nation and every weekend brings a fresh march, action, or protest. But today, unlike in the immediate aftermath of the inauguration, the protest movement is becoming branded by the big blue D of the Democratic party.

That presents a problem. The reason that there’s a saying that “the Democratic Party is where social movements go to die” is because it’s true. America’s second most enthusiastic capitalist party finds its purpose in crushing challenges to the socioeconomic order by co-option and assimilation.

The immediate rejection of Trump came as a surprise to many in the Democratic Party and the political class. In the aftermath of Trump’s election victory, then President Barack Obama told the president elect that “if you succeed, the country succeeds.” His defeated challenger Hillary Clinton told her supporters that “we owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.”

The Democrats were flailing after their crushing defeat last November. Their electoral machine was in shambles and they were all out of ideas, after having tried nothing.

It took a while for the party to read the mood of the electorate. Senate Democrats, with the exception of New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, were mainly compliant with confirming Trump’s cabinet nominees in the first week of the new administration.

That began to change, however, as the public pressure from a genuine grassroots movement pushed back against the Trump agenda. Senators Elizabeth Warren and Cory Booker stopped voting for the president’s Cabinet picks by February. They knew there would be consequences for collaboration.

Gillibrand, Warren, and Booker are each widely expected to have designs on the White House in 2020, and they each want to turn the new protest movement to their advantage. Booker showed up at an airport protest on Jan. 29. Warren and Gillibrand have popped up at rallies across their home states in the months since Trump took office. Their votes against Trump’s nominees appear, to a cynic, to be the kind of politicking that will position each well to channel the anger against Trump from the base while defanging the parts of the movement they don’t care for.

As for Clinton, she has reentered the political scene with both a new narrative and a new scheme. The failed 2016 Democratic presidential candidate has decided that she is mostly blameless for her defeat. Instead, the new narrative goes, Clinton was brought down by now former FBI Director James Comey and an unspecified but nefarious Russian hacking operation.

With that cleared up, Clinton is moving on to doing what she does best: grift. The former Secretary of State is starting a new political action committee to raise money for protest groups and, for the midterms, candidates. She’s called the PAC “Onward Together,” a play on her failed campaign’s slogan “Stronger Together.”

This move by Clinton encapsulates the problem of the Democrats coopting an organic protest movement against Trump perfectly. A real grassroots movement against the president and his administration could present a challenge to both the problems of the current administration and the problems of America as a whole. But if the movement is controlled and funded by the same party professionals that have created a brand so off-putting, and so toxic, that the American people prefer Trump, what measure of success can it realistically expect to have?

Further, a Clinton controlled PAC could allow the party machine to continue to determine the course of the movement. The Democrats have deep pockets—ask anyone who’s ever run against the party without significant financial backing. By funneling extra cash and resources to her chosen candidates, Clinton and her ilk could continue to control the direction of the party.

Sure, a few more liberal candidates would slip through the cracks in the primaries. But for the most part, we shouldn’t expect to see a Tea Party wave in the Democratic Party in 2018. They won’t allow it.

The Democrats plan to attach themselves, tick-like, to a political movement that was born from resistance. They’ll drain it of its lifeblood and infect it with a debilitating disease, rendering the movement toothless, tired, and depleted. It’s up to us to make sure that doesn’t happen.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:41 pm

American Dream wrote:Where Movements Go to Die: The Democrats are Draining the Resistance's Life


Good analysis there.

There's an anology somewhere here with the kids trapped in the cave, and the divers who rescued them.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:48 pm

Elvis » 17 Jul 2018 23:02 wrote:on edit: It's mundane but ultimately the question is, can the Democratic party be wrested from 'deep state' control and is that even possible?


Elvis, kindly define DEEP STATE and DEEP STATE CONTROL (specifically of the Democrats) in this context, please.

YOPJ
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 pm

Jerky wrote:define DEEP STATE and DEEP STATE CONTROL (specifically of the Democrats) in this context


I define "deep state" in the more or less traditional sense: as essentially the military-intelligence-industrial complex, including various black-budget and quasi-government operations, powerful elements of the oil and financial sectors, and a spectrum of actors extending from covert CIA assets down to corporate lobbyists who represent and shill for those interests (not to mention the "undue influence" of corporate media).

These forces simply wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try to control the major political parties. That's like, Job 1.


What, you were expecting pizzagate?
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:11 pm

No, not Pizzagate, not from YOU anyway... but do you really think the Democrats are more in thrall to this Deep State (and affiliated entities/individuals) than the Republicans are? or that they have not been, in recent history, the American people's most effective holders in check of said special interests?

J.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:28 pm

Jerky wrote: do you really think the Democrats are more in thrall to this Deep State (and affiliated entities/individuals) than the Republicans are?


No, and of course I didn't say that. Straw man down! :wink
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:35 pm

.
I'll gladly take that bait and raise it.

Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:11 pm wrote:No, not Pizzagate, not from YOU anyway... but do you really think the Democrats are more in thrall to this Deep State (and affiliated entities/individuals) than the Republicans are? or that they have not been, in recent history, the American people's most effective holders in check of said special interests?

J.


They may have been presented that way, outwardly, for a variety of reasons. But they are distinct only in appearance. Both parties emanate from the same source/power structure, which has been the case for some time. More recently -- over the last 20 yrs or so -- the outward 'variances' have been replaced by policies that, in essence, achieve similar/same ends.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone that posts here regularly earnestly believes The Democratic Party offers The People the "most effective holders in check" of the power systems in play. It causes me to revert back to my theory that part of your shtick here is a form of satire (my courteous description of it).
.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:48 pm

I do most definitely think that the Democratic Party has been a more of less effective holder in check of the more extreme elements of industry, the MIC, and entrenched wealth, and that electing more Democrats, particularly at this point in time, is an excellent FIRST STEP towards turning America off its current disastrous path.

Have they been perfect? Of course not. Because the American people aren't perfect. But they are infinitely preferable to the Republicans, and have been for decades now. Your too-cool-for-school scoffing at this notion indicates to me that you either haven't given the topic sufficient thought, or that you have a poor grasp of recent political history.

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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:06 pm

Consider that the person who founded the Center for American Progress, helped elect Bill Clinton and Obama, served as their chief of staff and ran Hillary Clinton's campaign—key roles in Democratic politics and especially in Oval Office influence and the filling of cabinet posts—made his fortune lobbying for major arms manufacturers and other big-business interests including conservative political action groups.

I will say this: despite being "poor" I now have amazingly complete medical coverage, only because people elected Democrats, and no thanks whatever to Republicans.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:29 pm

Elvis » 19 Jul 2018 03:06 wrote:Consider that the person who founded the Center for American Progress, helped elect Bill Clinton and Obama, served as their chief of staff and ran Hillary Clinton's campaign—key roles in Democratic politics and especially in Oval Office influence and the filling of cabinet posts—made his fortune lobbying for major arms manufacturers and other big-business interests including conservative political action groups.

I will say this: despite being "poor" I now have amazingly complete medical coverage, only because people elected Democrats, and no thanks whatever to Republicans.


To paraphrase Jesus: "Wars, they will always be with us." It sucks, and as many people as possible have to make it their job to be vigilant and understand as much as possible about the ongoing realpolitik, but whichever party is in power at any given times inherits a global situation that involves the potential or, or an ongoing series of, military conflicts. Defense is part of ruling, so dealing with defense contractors isn't just something Democrats can choose to NOT DO somehow.

I am sincerely glad to know that you have good medical coverage now. I mean it, man. You, and all Americans, deserve no less.

J.
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Re: Whither the Democrats?

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:50 pm

Jerky wrote: "Wars, they will always be with us."


This, in my view, is a very weak defense of the MIC and a dangerous myth that relieves its believers of all responsibility for making a peaceful world. It's like the neocon "end of history" nonsense that says this is as good as it gets. In my opinion, this dismal outlook, pervasive and encouraged with fear tactics, is holding humanity back.


It's like "all politicians lie," which is little more than a license for politicians to lie.
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