Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

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Re: Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:15 pm

From Molly McKew:

Guide to Trump/Putin meeting:

- We don't need to ask Putin anything: we know
- Russia does not belong in G8
- Russia = Iran in Syria; there is no deal with Russia to get Iran out
- If we allow Russia to determine outcome on Syria, US will be screwed in region for a generation
- Crimea is Ukraine. Russia invaded + is at war w/ Ukraine. Expanding Rus footprint in Black Sea is US/NATO challenge
- Russia has no right to "defend" "Russian-speakers" abroad; this is a Kremlin narrative
- "Suspending" military exercises in Baltics is a Kremlin deliverable
- Russia is supporting the Taliban in Afgh as they target US forces; we should be saying something re that
- Georgia & Ukraine have the right to work toward NATO membership; not clearly reinforcing the open-door is a Kremlin deliverable that they have fought 2 wars for
- "working with Russia" on economic issues i= allowing them to steal our tech and infiltrate our systems to use them against us. There is no clean Kremlin money; it all comes with strings
- Russia has supported North Korea missile + nuke programs, continues to stir this issue
- sanctions must remain in place; Russian behavior has not changed, and they continue to attack the US and our allies with impunity. Not saying so is failure.
- there is no moral equivalence between the US and Russia, and no US President should ever say so
- there is no "in private" w/ Putin. Whatever you say will end up in press, either to embarrass you or weaken allies.
- intelligence populating the Mueller indictments comes at least in part from our allies. Defend it, or you insult their efforts defense of American homeland
- you should never meet with Putin if you aren't willing to take a swing.
- Oh, and to be clear, we got information this week that the Russian attack on the American homeland, people, and society is EXPANDING -- and any failure to outline clear costs and consequences is leaving American citizens exposed to attack by a foreign adversary

I approve of her take here, for the most part.

J.

PS - https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderi ... c1a73f7ddb
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Re: Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby Elvis » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm

Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:15 pm wrote:From Molly McKew:

Guide to Trump/Putin meeting:

- We don't need to ask Putin anything: we know
- Russia does not belong in G8
- Russia = Iran in Syria; there is no deal with Russia to get Iran out
- If we allow Russia to determine outcome on Syria, US will be screwed in region for a generation
- Crimea is Ukraine. Russia invaded + is at war w/ Ukraine. Expanding Rus footprint in Black Sea is US/NATO challenge
- Russia has no right to "defend" "Russian-speakers" abroad; this is a Kremlin narrative
- "Suspending" military exercises in Baltics is a Kremlin deliverable
- Russia is supporting the Taliban in Afgh as they target US forces; we should be saying something re that
- Georgia & Ukraine have the right to work toward NATO membership; not clearly reinforcing the open-door is a Kremlin deliverable that they have fought 2 wars for
- "working with Russia" on economic issues i= allowing them to steal our tech and infiltrate our systems to use them against us. There is no clean Kremlin money; it all comes with strings
- Russia has supported North Korea missile + nuke programs, continues to stir this issue
- sanctions must remain in place; Russian behavior has not changed, and they continue to attack the US and our allies with impunity. Not saying so is failure.
- there is no moral equivalence between the US and Russia, and no US President should ever say so
- there is no "in private" w/ Putin. Whatever you say will end up in press, either to embarrass you or weaken allies.
- intelligence populating the Mueller indictments comes at least in part from our allies. Defend it, or you insult their efforts defense of American homeland
- you should never meet with Putin if you aren't willing to take a swing.
- Oh, and to be clear, we got information this week that the Russian attack on the American homeland, people, and society is EXPANDING -- and any failure to outline clear costs and consequences is leaving American citizens exposed to attack by a foreign adversary

I approve of her take here, for the most part.

J.


My take on her take is on page 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41196#p660473
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby Jerky » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 pm

Yah. I just wanted those too lazy to follow the link to more easily be able to see what it is, exactly, that you were objecting to.

Seems like pretty non-controversial stuff to me (with a few minor caveats).
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Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby 82_28 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:21 am

Here is the problem I think, Elvis. It is that this cannot be escaped. On FB and elsewhere I do not not know why leftist purists cannot see the writing on the wall. If this is allowed to go on, yes the old bumper sticker I used to see as a kid that said "Imagine No Liberals" will become a reality. We will live within a full authoritarian state. Everyone thinks they have it all figured out. Who the good guys are and who are the bad. Occam's Razor makes me lean towards they are just people beholden to an out of control system of control with absolutely no regard for science and history. The system is the control but everyone has been too stupefied to do anything about it. Also you cannot rouse people to "action" in effectively a police state.

I drove through Medina today for work. (It's where basically the richest fuckers on the planet live -- Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos etc) but I fully know that doing so, GPS sent me through there (logged) and as soon as I enter I am being tracked by another unknowable system. But I accepted it. It IS BUCOLIC. A place of simple pleasures based upon the chaos outside. But it is police state approved! But it is calm. Speed limit is a nice 35mph and I was relaxed -- unlike traveling back to Seattle.

All I am saying is we and probably "they" don't know what the fuck is going on either. Trust me. I have waited on people for years like this, always with an ear perked up, they are never asking or talking about shit that they should know about. They are clueless and only following "control's" orders.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby American Dream » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:19 am

Sure, this one is based in conventional statecraft but it makes many good points:


Image

Remember Syria?
ASLI U. BÂLI, AZIZ RANA

A summit such as the one in Helsinki between Trump and Putin should be oriented towards objectives that would advance sustainable and inclusive peace in Syria, including an end to airstrikes on all sides, rather than treating the country as a sideshow in a battle to confront Iran. Unlike in the spring of 2012, when a genuine commitment to negotiations by the United States might have made an inclusive political settlement in Syria easier to attain, today the balance of military power on the ground has placed Russia and Iran in the driver seat. Due, in part, to the faulty U.S. logic six years ago that militarizing the conflict further would enhance the position of its Gulf allies six years ago, the United States is now reduced to using its leverage to persuade Russia to turn its advantage into meaningful political negotiations for Syria’s future.

But calling for such negotiations must not become an occasion to merely sanction the continuation of Assad’s brutal rule. Rather the United States should support—and demand that Russia back—negotiations designed to allow a transition that incorporates a wide range of actors across Syria’s political spectrum.

Finally, the United States should facilitate an agreement with Turkey to withdraw from Syrian territory in exchange for assurances that Kurdish autonomy goals would be pursued within Syria’s current borders rather than through secession.

Those actors complicit in Syria’s destruction are obligated to help resettle refugees and provide basic needs to the nearly eight million displaced.


The key goal of all of this would be to limit the hostilities and restrain external interveners in ways that create the actual space for Syrians on the ground to pursue a transition process that they themselves direct. This is of course much easier said than done, given the transnational reality of the conflict, the extreme violence of Assad as well as his strengthened position, and the fragmented nature of the various militias across the country.

But in a context in which the militarized interventions of key states have transformed a local uprising into a regional proxy war, such an inclusive framework—facilitated by external restraint and the political space it creates—remains the only possibility, however tenuous, for refocusing transnational politics in Syria around local demands. As the other options have made clear, allowing regional actors to fight over the country has led to a might-makes-right strategy with terrible consequences.

The problem, of course, is that actually pursuing these policies—and holding states such as Saudi Arabia, Israel and Turkey accountable for their own violence—means seriously reframing the terms of U.S. regional alliances. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have shown any capacity to do this.

Instead, opinion leaders on the Democratic side worry that Trump will give away U.S. “leverage” in Syria—by withdrawing remaining U.S. troops as part of a deal with Putin—while Republicans call for greater aggression against Iran. For those on the left, it is well past the time to press a shift in the U.S. approach to the Middle East.

Image

But U.S. obligations do not stop there. Even if an inclusive political settlement were achieved tomorrow, the profound destruction of civilian infrastructure in much of Syria and the absence of a central body capable of ensuring public order, let alone reconstruction, is so great that repatriating refugees and internally displaced persons is not possible at present. In some ways, the talks in Helsinki and elsewhere are a diversion from the more urgent humanitarian crisis confronting the international community.

The overriding and immediate obligation of those actors complicit in Syria’s destruction is the resettlement of refugees outside of Syria and the provision of basic needs—subsistence, shelter, health and education—to the nearly eight million displaced within Syria.

Even if the conflict is drawing to a close, not all settlements are created equal.


The United States should follow its own past practices when civilians have fled conflicts the country was itself involved in. For instance, around 140,000 Vietnamese were resettled in the United States in 1975 alone, followed by more than 300,000 over the next decade. Given our role in Iraq and our participation from the beginning in ratcheting up violence in Syria, the United States should similarly commit to taking in 400,000 Syrians over four years—a figure that is less than 10 percent of the number currently absorbed by neighboring countries.

The United States should also raise the lion’s share of financing (some of it from the Gulf) for UN and international agency relief efforts for those in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt. And it must organize international burden sharing arrangements to support frontline host countries and secondary countries at EU borders. Russia and Iran, in turn, must be called upon to persuade Assad to facilitate the provision of humanitarian assistance to internally displaced persons (IDPs) within Syria.

The tragedy in Syria is not some distant affair. It is partly the product of the disastrous Iraq war and it has been compounded by foreseeable errors made by three successive U.S. administrations. Even if the conflict is drawing to a close, it is critical to realize that not all settlements are created equal and that the United States’s diplomatic and humanitarian obligations remain just as pressing. It is therefore up to the leadership in Washington to fulfill its responsibilities.

The Trump administration has chosen, through orders such as the Muslim ban, to shut the door to civilians the country has actively put in harm’s way. In a sense, such measures are an extreme embodiment not only of the current administration’s moral culpability but also of the ethical blindness that has shaped seven years’ worth of policymaking.

If anything, the current conversation in Washington—whether to shut the door entirely or offer any assistance at all in reconstruction—is the exact inverse of what it should be: how systematically can the United States ensure the protection of an entire population subject to mass atrocity in part due to the folly of our own policies?

If Trump and his administration refuse to be held accountable for their actions in Syria—as they have similarly refused across a range of other issues—the very least we should require is that his political opponents in Democratic circles own up to U.S. complicity and agree to pay back this country’s debt.


More: http://bostonreview.net/war-security/as ... utin-syria
Last edited by American Dream on Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby Elvis » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:35 am

82_28 wrote:I drove through Medina today for work. (It's where basically the richest fuckers on the planet live -- Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos etc)


It was a nice neighborhood when I lived there. 8)

Many years ago I found myself sitting alone with the chief of police in his office. He was a reasonable fellow, considering the circumstances, and why spoil the idea that There Is No Crime In Medina.


Anyway, all I know is what I read.
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Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby American Dream » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:03 am

Medina can eat my grits, especially the police. I remember when Chinese President Hu Jintao came to town. They harassed us no end, just to give the message that we weren't to protest there. They have some seriously controlled roadage there. Strangely, the Falun Gong protestor was allowed to disrupt things but ordinary grassroots people were made to feel extremely unwelcome.
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Re: Trump's upcoming employee evaluation with Putin

Postby American Dream » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:34 am

Trump meets his handler in Helsinki

Whatever conflicts he might have with US imperialism, Putin is no friend of workers in Russia, the US or anywhere else. Rumored to be the richest man in the world, his regime represents a most criminal gang of oligarchs. He bases himself on the reactionary Russian Orthodox Church, homophobia, sexism, chauvinism and Islamophobia. His bombing campaigns of Chechnya first and then the Syrian people are nothing short of crimes against humanity. Nope, the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.See this pamphlet for more background on the Putin regime.

Trump has long and deep financial ties with the Russian oligarchs. After his funding sources dried up following his bankruptcies, he became a money launderer for these oligarchs/mafiosi.

The tops of the US capitalist class must be aware of this, but their hesitancy to attack him is due to the fact that money laundering is rampant throughout the US real estate industry. So, revealing Trump’s criminal (by even their own standards) background would open up a whole can of worms that they prefer to leave closed, if they possibly can.

Putin intervention
Make no mistake, Putin agents did involve themselves in the 2017 election. This blog site discussed some of these aspects, including how the Russian-controlled “Internet Research Agency” sent out fake news items mainly through Facebook that were ultimately seen by 126 million people in the US. But there is more, as an article in “Wired.com” reveals: It was, in fact, Russian hackers who got into the DNC computers and obtained information that they then passed on to Wikileaks. Another article, this time New York Magazine reveals that then CIA director Brennan knew about the hacking as early as 2015.

Trump’s Russia connection
And Trump’s Russia connection?

Image
Donald Trump with Bayrock partners Tefvik Arif (center) and Felix Sater at the Soho launch party in 2007. Sater is a convicted financial swindler.

Trump now claims he barely knew Sater and wouldn’t even recognize him in a room. Both are connected with the Russian mafia.

As early as 1986, the Russian secret service (of which Putin was the head) had made contact with Trump as the NY Magazine article reveals. A year following this contact, Trump visited Moscow, and when he returned he had suddenly developed an interest in politics, starting with a call for the US to… stop paying for NATO. (This is not saying we should support NATO, but it’s pretty clear why and when Trump suddenly developed this interest.) As NYmag writes (and as we had written about earlier): “From 2003 to 2017, people from the former USSR made 86 all-cash purchases — a red flag of potential money laundering — of Trump properties, totaling $109 million. In 2010, the private-wealth division of Deutsche Bank also loaned him hundreds of millions of dollars during the same period it was laundering billions in Russian money. “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” said Donald Jr. in 2008. “We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia,” boasted Eric Trump in 2014.”

NYMag also documents the connection between the Kremlin-connected Russian bank Alpha Bank and the Trump election campaign committee.

Miss Universe beauty pageant in Moscow
Mother Jones also describes in detail Trump’s visit to Moscow for his Miss Universe pageant in 2013. They detail his communications with Putin and one of Putin’s closest lieutenants. (Putting the lie to Putin’s claim that he didn’t know Trump was in Moscow in 2013 nor did he even know who Trump was at that time!) They describe his plans to build a Trump Tower in Moscow and his ingratiating himself with Russian oligarch Aras Agalarov in order to cut through the red tape in getting such a project okayed by the Putin government. They also describe his connections with another oligarch and mobster, Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov. They explain that the plans for this project were all good to go… until the Russian takeover of Ukraine and the resulting US economic sanctions on Russia. All of this is put in the context of the June, 2016, meeting in Trump Tower in New York between Trump’s son and a team put together by Agalarov. The purpose of that meeting, Trump and his son were led to believe, was to get derogatory information on Clinton.


https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/07/17 ... -helsinki/
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