Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening NOW

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening NOW

Postby Grizzly » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:00 pm



On June 21, 2018, The American Conservative hosted its annual crony capitalism conference at which Ralph Nader delivered a speech on the military industrial congressional complex titled "Eisenhower's Warning: Prophetic and Presently Understated." Nader is an author, consumer advocate, and former presidential candidate. He is one of America's most effective social critics, and has emerged as a leading voice against the growing convergence of government and corporate interests. He is the author of Unstoppable: The Emerging Left-Right Alliance to Dismantle the Corporate State.


The American Conservative?! Next they'll have ______.
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Elvis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:28 pm

I listened to Ralph, and still listen, thank you very much. :grumpy

Is the word "conservative" just a trigger?

Have you ever seen the discussions between Nader and American Conservative founder Pat Buchanan?

Did you watch/listen to the video?

I dunno whose side you're on, but Ralph is on my side.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFaesfO7fQ
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:52 pm

.

Maybe Grizzly is kidding? That's what I thought, at first. If only someone could solve this mystery!

Sometimes I am on Ralph's side (note the distinction), and that was so in 2000, at least as a New Yorker. But never if it involves the likes of Buchanan. I remember things you probably should also remember, Elvis.

The Year the Clock Broke
How the world we live in already happened in 1992


https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-year- ... broke-ganz

REALLY LONG READ - I ENJOYED IT

AS 1992 DREW CLOSER, A SPECTER HAUNTED the Republican Party establishment—the white-robed specter of David Duke. The former grand wizard of the national Ku Klux Klan had literally gotten a facelift for the television cameras and managed to make a credible run for the governorship of Louisiana. Even though he was soundly trounced in the state’s November 1991 runoff, which delivered the office to the comically corrupt former Democratic governor Edwin Edwards, who dodged a racketeering conviction in his previous term, Duke was still out there lurking on the fringes of the American right, threatening to primary George Bush.

“We’ve been sending a message,” Duke said in his concession speech. “Next year, you’ll have the message being expanded all over the nation.” In Washington, D.C., a group of disaffected hardline right-wing political operatives heard his message loud and clear. They saw in David Duke the path to reshape America, formulating the brand of backlash populism that would finally come of age in the era of Trump.

The Louisiana gubernatorial election of 1991 was indeed a fight over that great floating signifier of American political life—populism. But in Louisiana populism was not just a vague label; it was institutionalized, both in style and substance. The remnants of Governor Huey P. Long’s “Share Our Wealth” redistribution program from the 1930s remained on the books. Edwards was certainly closer kin to Long’s rollicking, drawling bonhomie. He was still a “laissez les bon temps rouler” guy in the laissez-faire world of Reaganomic austerity.

Both candidates had legitimate claims to the legacy of Long’s populism. After Long’s assassination in 1935, “The Share Our Wealth” banner was taken up by America Firster anti-Semites like Father Coughlin and Gerald L.K. Smith. While Duke railed against welfare that he said mostly benefitted blacks at white expense, he defended a cornerstone of Louisiana’s populist policy regime, the Homestead Exemption, which made the first $75,000 worth of property tax free. The exemption was the material foundation of the largely white, small property-owning lower middle class—those hardy, self-reliant people of American populist lore.

SNIP!

We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Elvis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:11 pm

My point there is that Nader and Buchanan views are about 1:1 on the corporatocracy, neoliberalism, OWS, etc.

I think Nader speaking to an A.C. event is a good thing, they need to hear it.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:25 pm

Elvis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:11 pm wrote:My point there is that Nader and Buchanan views are about 1:1 on the corporatocracy, neoliberalism, OWS, etc.


Ugh, I hope not, or I'll have to reconsider what the fuck is wrong with me. Cos that motherfucker may as well be George Wallace, unreconstructed.

I think Nader speaking to an A.C. event is a good thing, they need to hear it.


This I can see.

It was a really good article I linked for you, by the way. If you remember, you will enjoy.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby thrulookingglass » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:42 pm

I love Ralph! Had we voted for Ralph rather than Gore or W the world would be a better place. Keep them dumb is the rule, keep them REAL dumb. Ralph's and the Green Rainbow Party's values embrace true progressive conscience! I just wish they'd admit capitalism is a sham. You're right though, the presidency is also a beauty contest. No one would have followed an elephant man Jesus. Says something about us all. :crybaby
User avatar
thrulookingglass
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: down the rabbit hole USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Elvis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:08 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Elvis » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:11 pm wrote:My point there is that Nader and Buchanan views are about 1:1 on the corporatocracy, neoliberalism, OWS, etc.


Ugh, I hope not, or I'll have to reconsider what the fuck is wrong with me. Cos that motherfucker may as well be George Wallace, unreconstructed.

It was a matter of Buchanan being unable to argue Nader's economic points and agreeing with Nader—not of Nader conceding to any rightwing points whatever. Both men were surprised at the extent to which they agreed on the anti-neoliberal/corporate stuff. The whole exchange, I believe, was published in American Conservative (and is discussed on RI, maybe I'll look for it later). That's probably why Nader was invited to speak there—because Buchanan shares some key economic views with Nader.


I think Nader speaking to an A.C. event is a good thing, they need to hear it.


This I can see.

It was a really good article I linked for you, by the way. If you remember, you will enjoy.


Thanks, I skimmed it, reading all the bits about Buchanan, and saved.

There is no question Buchanan is very, very fucked up. But the Baffler piece doesn't delve into economics, which is all I'm referring to regarding the Buchanan/Nader overlap.

Nader, on the other hand is not fucked up, he's brilliant, and tough to argue against. I just think Grizzly is mistaken here.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Grizzly » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:56 pm

Nader, on the other hand is not fucked up, he's brilliant, and tough to argue against. I just think Grizzly is mistaken here.


Yall, got me all wrong, I think Nader is as brilliant as you guys do. I like his sister too. Laura Nader, great Anthropologist. I was just gobsmacked that he was not only invited to speak but was well received by those at the A.C. event. At least from what I can tell. The title was in jest. A real patriot Murican, here... In a land of lost vision.. But realistically I know he (or anyone like him) a thinker, a statesman or visionary will never ever be elected in this maniacal and psychopathic-ally evil system called, Murder Inc. They will NEVER relinquish power. Ever.

P.S AND FUCK THE ESTABLISHED DEMOCRATS EVEN MORE.




Watch as Slick Willie and the Only man in America -who doesn't know where they were on the day JFK was gunned down- smirk ...
Last edited by Grizzly on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:19 pm

I do love watching the best bit in 30 years of Simpsons again.

Did it only hit me now that at the end they are building a raygun to point at a planet Marge never heard of? That's also exactly the same as in real life.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Elvis » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 am

Grizzly wrote: The title was in jest.


Thanks for the clarification, Griz. I feel much better now. :bigsmile

Nader and Buchanan have an amiable history of conversation and debate, so Nader's appearance doesn't surprise me. And as I say, I think it's good, because those are the people he needs to persuade.


JackRiddler wrote:Did it only hit me now that at the end they are building a raygun to point at a planet Marge never heard of? That's also exactly the same as in real life.

:lol: So true!
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 am

Nader and Buchanan have an amiable history of conversation and debate, so Nader's appearance doesn't surprise me. And as I say, I think it's good, because those are the people he needs to persuade.


I doubt that. There are two groups I believe most need persuading. The first are the vast apolitical and uninformed majority of the non-owning classes whose fate under capitalism is to sell their labor, struggle, be beaten down and suffer; to get tied down in a net of obligations that seem to compel conformity as an obligation to family survival; and to be robbed of the time and energy to imagine a different world. The second are under-50 segments of the educated technical-clerical-teaching classes whose material circumstances may not be much better, but who generally buy into flavors of light establishment ideologies and entertain degrees of denial about the exterminationist outcomes. Older white men (sorry) who already know what they think, who have been following politics for decades and still believe in capitalism (and American historical goodness and Christianist culture), may be willing to join in anti-imperialist or antiwar moves, but otherwise will not be and do not want to be persuaded. One can only hope the majority that outnumbers them in the future (as they are outnumbered today already) will express a progressive prevailing will.

Definitely, we all need therapy of a kind that probably isn't yet practiced.

.

Otherwise, like almost everyone, Nader has not yet seen through the economic illusions that mask real-existing macroeconomics. To think he once hooked up with Ron Paul on a four-point platform, the first of which was something antiwar, the fourth of which was a version of Pelosi's pay-go or maybe worse, like a pledge to never increase the national debt.

So, you know, I like Ralph for being real, but nobody's infallible.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15983
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Elvis » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:15 pm

I can't argue with these points, I stand corrected, I hadn't thought that through, so thanks. I do like that Nader and Buchanan can have a civil, one-on-one discussion. On the old CNN "Crossfire" show, at the end of a heated debate Buchanan would say things like, "I hope we're still friends" which is better than just slamming the thought door shut.

JackRiddler wrote:
Nader and Buchanan have an amiable history of conversation and debate, so Nader's appearance doesn't surprise me. And as I say, I think it's good, because those are the people he needs to persuade.


I doubt that. There are two groups I believe most need persuading. The first are the vast apolitical and uninformed majority of the non-owning classes whose fate under capitalism is to sell their labor, struggle, be beaten down and suffer; to get tied down in a net of obligations that seem to compel conformity as an obligation to family survival; and to be robbed of the time and energy to imagine a different world. The second are under-50 segments of the educated technical-clerical-teaching classes whose material circumstances may not be much better, but who generally buy into flavors of light establishment ideologies and entertain degrees of denial about the exterminationist outcomes. Older white men (sorry) who already know what they think, who have been following politics for decades and still believe in capitalism (and American historical goodness and Christianist culture), may be willing to join in anti-imperialist or antiwar moves, but otherwise will not be and do not want to be persuaded. One can only hope the majority that outnumbers them in the future (as they are outnumbered today already) will express a progressive prevailing will.

Definitely, we all need therapy of a kind that probably isn't yet practiced.

.

Otherwise, like almost everyone, Nader has not yet seen through the economic illusions that mask real-existing macroeconomics. To think he once hooked up with Ron Paul on a four-point platform, the first of which was something antiwar, the fourth of which was a version of Pelosi's pay-go or maybe worse, like a pledge to never increase the national debt.

So, you know, I like Ralph for being real, but nobody's infallible.

.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Shut up,Ralph! No one listened then. No one is listening

Postby Grizzly » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:51 pm

I like Ralph Nader, always have. But I agree with Jack in that, "Nader has not yet seen through the economic illusions that mask real-existing macroeconomics". Nor the illusion that capitalism is a tilted board.

I'd be curious what Nader thinks of James Corbett's latest work particularly:

https://www.corbettreport.com/wwi/
What was World War One about? How did it start? Who won? And what did they win? Now, 100 years after those final shots rang out, these questions still puzzle historians and laymen alike. But as we shall see, this confusion is not a happenstance of history but the wool that has been pulled over our eyes to stop us from seeing what WWI really was. This is the story of WWI that you didn’t read in the history books. This is The WWI Conspiracy.


I'd also welcome RI's thoughts on this...
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests