French Uprising of December 2018

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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Heaven Swan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:25 am

Please don’t think that this comedian’s rant is directed at you (anyone here). I’m posting this as an amusing way to illustrate a problem we may have. If we understand the problem perhaps we can find a solution.




Being a Social Justice Warrior - Ultra Spiritual Life episode 88
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:02 am

Apologies for adding to the flames. I was a little inebriated last night. I rarely post here anymore. I was just hoping to get opinions/analysis of what in hell is going on in France that I don't/can't get elsewhere. Can we get back to that?
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Cordelia » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:29 am

Heaven Swan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:25 pm wrote:Please don’t think that this comedian’s rant is directed at you (anyone here). I’m posting this as an amusing way to illustrate a problem we may have. If we understand the problem perhaps we can find a solution.




Being a Social Justice Warrior - Ultra Spiritual Life episode 88
AwakenWithJP 1,076,384 views


^^^
:rofl: :thumbsup :hug1:
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Heaven Swan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Glad you stopped by BPH. Hope to still see you around. Long lost poster Brekin popped up a while back. Loved their posts too.

:backtotopic:




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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:59 pm

Sounder » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:30 pm wrote:My opinion is that the PTB encourage migration as part of the 'weaken the nations plan'. Unfortunately for them, the institutional structures they favor may fall instead. The hated article is about how the EU falls apart.


Who are the PTB you're referring to here? Which organizations/people/companies etc.? What is their goal? Why is it necessary to weaken nation states?

The response here seems to reflect a bias against nation states. Are they inherently 'racist' entities that must be abolished at any cost? Or do they still have a legitimate role to play as a necessary factor for defense from hostile outside forces?


You're making assumptions with no basis in reality. Who are the hostile outside forces that needs defending from?

If we say yes to the first question, then who is responsible for the suffering created as the systems fail?

The Alt-right attachment to my persona here is silly. I am a human being who is greatly disturbed by the suffering of others. Displacement is painful.


I don't doubt that for a second, but you're the one who keeps posting alt-right talking points. All I'm asking is that you be a little more critical of your sources. If you're unfamiliar with someone then google them before posting so you know where they're coming from and what biases/agendas they have.

And what about point three, and the need for national sovereignty for MMT to work?

Go ahead, get your head out your ass and educate us Jack. :bigsmile


You're making the false assumption that your critics here are against nation states, so your MMT challenge is moot.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby peartreed » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:22 pm

Heaven Swan’s very relevant insights into the discussion represented by the article, “The Morality of Selfism The Gospel of Saint You” and the poignant parody of The Social Justice Warrior video combine to apply meaningful input we should consider. Both raise a mirror to review our own behavior and our online interactions here.

This group dynamic distress is an outcome of conflicting views on the same subject but with an inability to accommodate disagreement.

While most of us agree on the causes and forces behind the situation causing the yellow vest street protests in Europe we still need to leave the door open to other perspectives. showing the capacity to tolerate opposing views to our own with civility, without resorting to cruel, personalized attacks and insults against others and - the likely outcome - their leaving the forum hurt, rejected or simply banned.

Otherwise we will become an echo chamber of our own shared consensus view, a homogenous and indistinct sanctuary of sameness, a gated community of kindred comfort. Our security will be the current patrol of schoolyard bully enforcers who keep all nonconformists out by personal attack, intimidation and censorship. If anyone dares post anything unacceptable to the majority, they’re shunned and out.

R.I. will then be no different than Democratic Underground as entirely predictable. I would prefer the dynamics of diversity in discussion.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:00 pm

^^Here's my take on the seven points from Sounder's article:

1. no effective military forces

Translation: NATO countries have to buy more murder-shit from America before Russia invades.

2. no control of their own borders

Build the wall! MEGA!
The EU has freedom of travel on purpose. What are they supposed to do? Start sinking refugee ships?

3. no control of their currency and banks

The EU has a central bank and a common currency. No one forced anyone to adopt the Euro. Nine EU countries still have their own currencies, the rest joined voluntarily.

4. a government with a 'diverse' population in which the majority either has no loyalty to Berlin (recent 'refugee' immigrants) or has dropped its loyalty (large parts of Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg), and which is also losing the allegiance of the many eastern European immigrants in Germany. These people are among the most energized opponents of the 'refugee' influx.

Racist horseshit and dog-whistles. Loyalty? Wtf is this? Nazi Germany? Not even worth serious consideration.

5. Fast rising anarchy and lawlessness by the recent 'refugee' immigrants, and which is well known to the population, as are the official orders to the police to minimize crime statistics reporting by not opening official cases.

See above. The consistent use of quotation marks for 'refugees' and 'diverse' is telling, and not in a good way. Again - this is the kind of insane bullshit Anders Breivik was feeding off before he went and murdered a bunch of children, so pretty please with a big fucking cherry on top, why should I debate this in a civilized manner? It's contemptible and shameless pandering to the racist fringe and should be treated as such.

and

6. A mass media believed by no one due to the bald lies it broadcasts 24/7 daily about numbers 1-5.


As opposed to this drivel? The mass media being unreliable doesn't make any of this valid.

...will soon cease to exist. This is confirmed by:

7. The continuing spiral of the ruling post WWII political parties into their own political black holes. CDU/CSU on the right and SDP on the left have all lost their hold on the modern German population.


Funny how they're still in power then.

This idiot is mistaking a vocal minority of racist assholes for the majority. That's what happens when you travel in alt-right echo chambers.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Elvis » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:51 pm

peartreed » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:08 pm wrote:
Sounder shared with us the views of a likely right wing author for discussion and analysis, only to be ridiculed and insulted personally for being mistaken as supporting all those views himself and for allegedly supporting the political context of the medium they were published in. Both were erroneous assumptions that soon led to his personal insult, denigration, dismissal. bullying and intimidation. His responses evidence his surprise, offense and indignant reaction to the personalized attacks in replies.



No. Sounder posted the racist rightwing article because he agrees with it, and has been defending it for pages.

The objectors to racist writings—those meanie-pie party-poopers who make racists feel bad—are not going to be the bad guys here.

(Pardon me for even taking this post seriously.)
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:06 pm

Woah, a little housekeeping lest we go even further off the rails. I had thought CHS had been referenced here before as being someone with credible material. Perhaps I was wrong in this and do not see the same red flags seen by others. At any rate, to have concerns in regard to immigration does not make one a racist. The fact that poor people are most directly impacted seems to be lost on some people here.


https://www.mediaite.com/trump/shock-po ... -3-f3S6U_4

Oh, in relating the preceding, no endorsement of current political parties, people or ideologies are either expressed or implied.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:25 am

^^
At any rate, to have concerns in regard to immigration does not make one a racist.


That's not the point. Plenty of people have concerns about immigration without resorting to racist dog-whistles like the author of the article you posted. Of course there will be issues when different cultures meet, especially when people have been bombed to shit and traumatized before arriving. That doesn't mean we should wall off every country, Trump style. When people need help you help them, even when it comes at a cost, because it's the right thing to do.

It's funny how people only seem to get upset when refugees come to white countries. I never see anyone lamenting the plight of Lebanon or Jordan, both small countries with about 1.5 million refugees each and with a fraction of the resources the EU has at its disposal.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:55 am

When people need help you help them, even when it comes at a cost, because it's the right thing to do.


Yes, so the question remains, what must one do to actually help?


Dr. Evil, I appreciated the opinion you expressed upthread. I fear just as much as you do, the potential turn to the 'right' of protest movements. However the left shares responsibility if they remain tone deaf to the needs and concerns of wide segments of the citizenry. Establishment 'progressive thinking' strikes many as being quite hypocritical considering current adoption of migration pacts are coupled with eco-guards displacing indigenous people in direct contradiction of UN by-laws.


Both Brazil and Colombian govts. are currently targeting indigenous folk. The UN is tasked with stopping human rights violations. What do they, or anybody else do to stop these crimes against humanity?


https://www.enca.com/africa/pygmies-ill ... nservation
Pygmies illegally evicted from ancestral land for 'conservation': activists
Tuesday 26 September 2017

LIBREVILLE, Gabon – Wildlife guards funded by the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) and other conservation groups have carried out systematic abuses against tribes in central Africa, an activist group claimed on Monday.

Survival International, a British rights group, published a report containing more than 200 reported incidents against the Baka and Bayaka Pygmies in Cameroon, the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Central African Republic since 1989.

It claimed some of the world's largest conservation organisations, including the WWF and the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS), illegally evicted the tribes from their ancestral homelands "in the name of conservation".

In response, WWF said it did not employ eco-guards and described the reported abuse as "totally unacceptable".


Survival International said the creation of new national parks leave the tribes open to accusations of poaching when they hunt to feed their families.

"Together with their neighbours, they face harassment and beatings, torture and death. The anti-poaching squads that commit these atrocities are funded and equipped by the same conservation organisations," the report said.

Survival said the "harrowing accounts" it had gathered represented only a small fraction of the real number of such cases as the vast majority go undocumented.

"All these abuses should have been investigated swiftly and fairly, but almost always go unpunished, and are frequently denied."

Wildlife charities fund abuses of pygmies in #Congo Basin - report @Survival | @mjponsford reports pic.twitter.com/boT2ONpPxr
— TR_Foundation News (@AlertNet) September 25, 2017

WWF said it does not employ eco-guards, but does fund equipment and uniforms as part of its conservation work.

"We are shocked and saddened to hear of the violence and abuse of indigenous people. It is totally unacceptable," it said in a statement.

WWF said it has repeatedly asked Survival International to share information about the incidents so it can urge the authorities to act. The Baka and Bayaka Pygmies are a hunter-gatherer people who have lived in the tropical forests of the Congo River basin for generations.



The report said in one incident wildlife rangers arrived at a Baka village in WWF-marked cars and beat villagers who were forced to flee. A young girl and an elderly man later died of their injuries.

Survival said "green colonialism" is not just destroying lives but also harming conservation.

"Scapegoating tribal people diverts action away from tackling the real causes of environmental destruction in the Congo Basin: logging and corruption," it said
https://www.enca.com/africa/pygmies-ill ... nservation
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:34 pm

Sounder » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:55 am wrote:
When people need help you help them, even when it comes at a cost, because it's the right thing to do.


Yes, so the question remains, what must one do to actually help?


Do what we can to make them feel welcome. Teach them the language and the cultural dos and don'ts of their host country. Get their kids into school asap, help the adults find jobs. Basically - help them integrate so they feel a part of the society they live in.
Oh, and stop fucking bombing their countries and get serious about fighting climate change, otherwise the current situation is just an appetizer for what's coming.

Dr. Evil, I appreciated the opinion you expressed upthread. I fear just as much as you do, the potential turn to the 'right' of protest movements. However the left shares responsibility if they remain tone deaf to the needs and concerns of wide segments of the citizenry. Establishment 'progressive thinking' strikes many as being quite hypocritical considering current adoption of migration pacts are coupled with eco-guards displacing indigenous people in direct contradiction of UN by-laws.


Yeah, no. It's not the left's fault that some people can't handle the idea of a foreign neighbor, and I sincerely doubt that eco-guards displacing indigenous peoples is even on the radar of those ranting about migration pacts. Migration happens. The UN migration pact, supported by virtually every country on the planet, is simply a non-binding set of common rules for how to handle it. I don't see what all the fuzz is about. Sounds like Agenda 21 redux.

Both Brazil and Colombian govts. are currently targeting indigenous folk. The UN is tasked with stopping human rights violations. What do they, or anybody else do to stop these crimes against humanity?


Fuck if I know. Not that this is even relevant to this thread, but they should do everything they can, but the UN isn't omniscient. Sometimes bad shit happens. If possible, find the perpetrators and drag them through the courts.

https://www.enca.com/africa/pygmies-illegally-evicted-from-ancestral-land-for-conservation
Pygmies illegally evicted from ancestral land for 'conservation': activists
Tuesday 26 September 2017

LIBREVILLE, Gabon – Wildlife guards funded by the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) and other conservation groups have carried out systematic abuses against tribes in central Africa, an activist group claimed on Monday.

Survival International, a British rights group, published a report containing more than 200 reported incidents against the Baka and Bayaka Pygmies in Cameroon, the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Central African Republic since 1989.

It claimed some of the world's largest conservation organisations, including the WWF and the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS), illegally evicted the tribes from their ancestral homelands "in the name of conservation".

In response, WWF said it did not employ eco-guards and described the reported abuse as "totally unacceptable".


Survival International said the creation of new national parks leave the tribes open to accusations of poaching when they hunt to feed their families.

"Together with their neighbours, they face harassment and beatings, torture and death. The anti-poaching squads that commit these atrocities are funded and equipped by the same conservation organisations," the report said.

Survival said the "harrowing accounts" it had gathered represented only a small fraction of the real number of such cases as the vast majority go undocumented.

"All these abuses should have been investigated swiftly and fairly, but almost always go unpunished, and are frequently denied."

Wildlife charities fund abuses of pygmies in #Congo Basin - report @Survival | @mjponsford reports pic.twitter.com/boT2ONpPxr
— TR_Foundation News (@AlertNet) September 25, 2017

WWF said it does not employ eco-guards, but does fund equipment and uniforms as part of its conservation work.

"We are shocked and saddened to hear of the violence and abuse of indigenous people. It is totally unacceptable," it said in a statement.

WWF said it has repeatedly asked Survival International to share information about the incidents so it can urge the authorities to act. The Baka and Bayaka Pygmies are a hunter-gatherer people who have lived in the tropical forests of the Congo River basin for generations.



The report said in one incident wildlife rangers arrived at a Baka village in WWF-marked cars and beat villagers who were forced to flee. A young girl and an elderly man later died of their injuries.

Survival said "green colonialism" is not just destroying lives but also harming conservation.

"Scapegoating tribal people diverts action away from tackling the real causes of environmental destruction in the Congo Basin: logging and corruption," it said
https://www.enca.com/africa/pygmies-ill ... nservation


You should also look up 'whataboutism'.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:21 pm

Multiple evasions are being practiced here to trivialize the posting of racist lies about refugees in Europe. This cannot be trivialized by additional propaganda suggesting that concerns about racism are all made up by excitable white male "social justice warriors," which itself is a right-wing attack term and projection. Shifting the topic through non-sequiturs about various injustices around the world (some real, some not) is evasive. Factual or analytic discussion about the French yellow jacket uprising has been hijacked.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby Sounder » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:03 pm

Yeah, no. It's not the left's fault....followed by something that is , of course, not the left's fault. .....Well, that was easy.

The basic Yellow Vest demand is for citizen proposed referendums, and basic complaint, as I see it, is they are tired of having far off functionaries having such a large hand in shaping the fate of regular people. They are tired of the intellectual elite, as are many. That is the topic.
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Re: French Uprising of December 2018

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:36 pm

.

Your imaginary version of the "the left" is apropos of absolutely nothing and another pathetic evasion.

The French left is heavily present in the yellow jacket protests according to polling and self-evidently from the demands and signage employed.

The protesters have made a point that their actions are not against migration, but against income inequality, unjust taxes, and various policies that can accurately be called neoliberal.

You changed the topic here by posting racist propaganda (which you have alternately defended and tried to make light of) claiming that all Europe is collapsing due to a flood of anti-European brown refugees let in by the "Davos" system to destroy "European" culture, and that this is driving the protests. Curiously you avoid DrEvil's comments on the (self-evident) reasons why refugees fled war zones and economic disasters and (in small part, actually) sought refuge in Europe.

The propaganda you posted is apropos in a sickening way, as it is the version of reality fronted by European fascists seeking to make inroads with the protesters and the generally rebellious mood among the French. So whatever it is you think you are doing, your thread hijack is in support of this hope among the fascist parties who hope, I hope in vain, to hijack the yellow jacket protests on behalf of their agenda.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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