French Uprising of December 2018

[Heaven Swan]

Jerky wrote:
...So, is the Yellow Vest movement a racist or anti-immigrant one? I don't think you can say that. Have some racist individuals and organizations taken advantage of the Yellow Vest movement by latching onto it in order to make themselves look more influential than they really are? Have outside forces (my dreaded New Fascist International(e) conspiracy!) taken it upon themselves to do whatever they can to turn up the heat on these demonstrations in order to fuck with the West, mess with the stability of NATO, and reduce global desire/respect for liberal democracy in general? Personally, I think that's a given, in that they would be foolish NOT to do so.

When I asked about drinking neo-liberal koolaid, I meant it as a question, not as a personal attack.

In your opinion, are ‘the fascists’ causing trouble by opposing NATO in Europe? NATO is an arm of the the war machine and runs black sites that are torture camps. Do you think the left should champion NATO? Support it’s agenda of war and accept it’s systemic secrecy and corruption? Is it the left’s job to defend “the West”? That’s what I was curious about.

I’ve said many times that I like your writing and appreciate your contributions here. This is not personal Jerky.

And if you know so much about the Gilets Jaunes why don’t you share what you know? Upthread, posters were searching for French viewpoints. If you have access to them then why not share?

[Jerky]

Heaven Swan, I'm not asking for you to be reprimanded or anything, but accusing someone of "drinking the neoliberal Kool-Aid" is pretty difficult NOT to take as a personal attack/insult of some sort, wouldn't you agree?

As for NATO, of course I don't back every single military engagement, and I don't delight in every single act by every single individual involved in that massive organization. But I am also NOT for NATO's immediate dismantling on the demands of hysterical crowds of black propaganda-whipped-up, firebombing maniacs wearing uniforms that declare, first and foremost, their contempt for Jews and their disbelief in the Holocaust, either.

I will go so far as to say that, at this point in time, I am for keeping but reforming NATO, certainly over dismantling it, considering the ongoing and increasingly hostile military adventurism of Russia on the continent.

As for giving you my perspective on the whole French thing, I think I did, above?

Jerky

[Jerky]

Also, contrary to popular misconception, NATO, if anything, is responsible for incredible DECREASES in the amount of wars and combat-related deaths since its inception.

A good place to start getting a grasp on the real history of warfare in the short and long terms is at Our World In Data:
https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

I think you'll find it enlightening, or, at the very least, interesting.

yer old pal Jerky

[JackRiddler]

Thanks Dr. Pinker. Did they ever get the memo that correlation is not causation? That's something world-blind numbers crunchers love to say, too bad they don't get it.

If that's a sample of "Our World in Data," it's probably a factory of blind empiricism. With a eurocentric twist, since (hooray) after its little hiccup of wars among imperialists in 1914-45, the North including Europe successfully went back to exporting its wars to the South.

Interestingly, this nonsense is about as much an argument that "NATO" caused an era of peace as that Soviet acquisition of nuclear weapons did. The standard data set says nuclear weapons were used in war before the Soviet bomb, and not after. Since you apparently still agree with Roy Cohn's case that "the Rosenbergs" gave away the secrets of the bomb (which they didn't), why do you claim they did such damage? You should be lobbying to give them the shrine you want to give "NATO."

But to be truthful, I love stuff like this, it's the entirely skewed interpretation on behalf of the present capitalist order that annoys.



See all those high bumps? See how they keep repeating? The graphs don't move because of some internal logic in the graphs (as with stock market voodoo). There are reasons for motions in each case. Those reasons haven't been abolished, just because we've reached a point for now where we're back at 1400 - oh hallelujah!

The main thesis adopts the ludicrous Pinkerian definition of improvement or "less war" as lower measured cumulative casualty rates against global population (very dependent on which casualties count, of course), even as there were many dozens of national conflicts and hundreds of civil wars, largely generated by the countries involved in "NATO." And even as nuclear weapons enough were stockpiled and are still deployed to end the species. And even as arms races remained a priority that trumped human development and skewed economies further toward the ecological collapse. As we see the fisheries depleted, the oceans covered in plastic debris, the forests aflame, the species extinction underway, all the rest of it spelling historical short-term doom for this civilization, the Dr. Panglosses are ever ready to tell us how we never had it this good and should STFU.

[Jerky]

Yes, yes, you're right! Something's definitely got to give! Reverse these trends NOW!

[Jerky]

You might also want to look into the metrics used to determine the depletion of fish stocks, especially in North America. Basically, it's all related to "maximum sustained yield" in reference to INDUSTRY needs and expectations, and is NOT about emptying the oceans of all its fish, as most probably suspect. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.bucksuzuki.org/programs/sust ... fisheries/

So, just out of curiosity Jack, what do you feel needs to be done to address all these issues you bring up? Have you perhaps come to the same conclusion as our planet's elites, in that you now think that maybe reducing the population is key? Because it seems to me that, considering all your concerns taken in sum, that might be the only viable -- and thus your own, unspoken -- solution.

No judgement if that's the case. Most of the intelligent, "responsible" people I know seem to have begrudgingly come to this conclusion over the years. Some have believed this for decades now. How about you?

Jerky

[Jerky]

PS - What's the opposite of a Dr. Pangloss? Dr. Scanmatte?

[JackRiddler]

.

Sure, as if any of that is what I said. All you've got is memes and sarcasm in defense of status quo thinking, and promiscuous but clumsy strawmannery. Lightweight. Why don't you make your home on Reddit already?

You might want to look into the extreme lies behind the "metrics" used to make claims that "extreme poverty" has declined.

Like most of the pro-capitalist propagandists who are denying the ongoing build up to catastrophes, you flip reality on its head: You say diagnosing the problem properly and without self-deluding optimism must mean I want it to reach the catastrophic point, although the only way this will ever be avoided starts with diagnosis; whereas your joining the forces who are denying the problem (so that nothing is done) and feeding us a line of Pollyanna bullshit that contradicts the actual scientific consensus makes you some kind of rational humanist philanthrope, although objectively it guarantees all the death and genocide you disgustingly imply I secretly support.

(Here, I'm not supposed to tell you to fuck off, so I won't. But apparently it's okay for you to accuse me, on no evidence, of desiring the deaths of billions, which obviously is a much worse thing to say to someone than a mere "fuck off troll," and at the same time you are the one supporting the policies that objectively will lead to the deaths of billions.)

By the way, you notice how Armenian and Jewish genocides qualify as wars, rightly I think, but somehow the chart lacks the even larger bubble that belongs to the Congolese peoples murdered by Belgian rule after all Europe agreed to let King Leopold take that territory? Aren't these victims of war? Do invasions by vastly militarily superior forces that just massacre and starve millions at will without "official" hostilities not count?

Willing to accept omissions like those (in either direction) means you're capable of coming to any result you desired in the first place (whether intentionally or subconsciously). That's the basic problem with all these secondary and tertiary "data-driven" attempts by self-designated geniuses to replace the tiresome and infinite details of history with reductionist laws, preferably ones that can be phrased as slogans at TED talks. It may sell in the present market, but it's rarely deep or serious scholarship.

In any case, we should suspend ALL POSTS on this thread that aren't about the French uprising. Your attempted defamations of the Yellow Vests as secretly racists or whatever have fallen flat and do not remotely apply; these are basically the pro-Macron neoliberal media lies of first resort. So you found a way to derail this thread instead, by ignoring the events and the movement in France. Instead you've diverted us into some crotchety old man's defense of the wonders and achievements of "NATO" and "The West" and capitalism globally (conventional wisdom from the 1950s dressed up in faux-millennial edgelordism). This in turn reinforces your other lie, that somehow the Russkies or the fascist internationale are running the French protests, or at any rate will benefit, so that the protesters had better stop right away lest they help the foreign enemies.

I should not have taken the bait.

.

[Elvis]

So, just out of curiosity Jack, what do you feel needs to be done to address all these issues you bring up? Have you perhaps come to the same conclusion as our planet's elites, in that you now think that maybe reducing the population is key? Because it seems to me that, considering all your concerns taken in sum, that might be the only viable -- and thus your own, unspoken -- solution.

Usual cheap shot about something no one said. The MO is getting old.

In any case, we should suspend ALL POSTS on this thread that aren't about the French uprising.

[Jerky]

For fuck's sake, it was a sincere question.

Population control doesn't instantly equate to genocide, and frankly I don't see how any of the problems you seem to feel are paramount get solved without at least SOME element of action taken re; unchecked population growth. If you think the air will suddenly be scrubbed clean, the temperature will drop, fish will pop into existence and every belly will fill once you and your fellow travelers are able to declare victory in the War Against Capitalism (and how's THAT going?)... well... good luck to you, I suppose.

As for the other crap you accuse me of, all anyone has to do is go back and read what I actually wrote about the gillets jaune to see that your hysterical (and long-winded! whoo boy!) accusations against me are total crap.

Some of you guys really need to get over yourselves.

J.

[Heaven Swan]

It may be about time for some humor.There are lots of Gilets Jaunes songs and sketches being put out there. Here are a couple I enjoyed.




Macron dancing







The translation captions are good for this video. You can enable the English captions by clicking on the gear icon through to auto-translate>drop down menu of languages.

I love the part about the mainstream media. It’s so clear and essential. Gilets Jaunes are very angry at the disinfo the media is putting out about them every day.

[Heaven Swan]

Gilet gialli, atto 13

Act 13. This weekend a protester lost their hand when they picked up a flash bang grenade launched by the police to try to throw it back.

[Heaven Swan]

.

Sure, as if any of that is what I said. All you've got is memes and sarcasm in defense of status quo thinking, and promiscuous but clumsy strawmannery. Lightweight. Why don't you make your home on Reddit already?

You might want to look into the extreme lies behind the "metrics" used to make claims that "extreme poverty" has declined.

Like most of the pro-capitalist propagandists who are denying the ongoing build up to catastrophes, you flip reality on its head: You say diagnosing the problem properly and without self-deluding optimism must mean I want it to reach the catastrophic point, although the only way this will ever be avoided starts with diagnosis; whereas your joining the forces who are denying the problem (so that nothing is done) and feeding us a line of Pollyanna bullshit that contradicts the actual scientific consensus makes you some kind of rational humanist philanthrope, although objectively it guarantees all the death and genocide you disgustingly imply I secretly support.

(Here, I'm not supposed to tell you to fuck off, so I won't. But apparently it's okay for you to accuse me, on no evidence, of desiring the deaths of billions, which obviously is a much worse thing to say to someone than a mere "fuck off troll," and at the same time you are the one supporting the policies that objectively will lead to the deaths of billions.)

By the way, you notice how Armenian and Jewish genocides qualify as wars, rightly I think, but somehow the chart lacks the even larger bubble that belongs to the Congolese peoples murdered by Belgian rule after all Europe agreed to let King Leopold take that territory? Aren't these victims of war? Do invasions by vastly militarily superior forces that just massacre and starve millions at will without "official" hostilities not count?

Willing to accept omissions like those (in either direction) means you're capable of coming to any result you desired in the first place (whether intentionally or subconsciously). That's the basic problem with all these secondary and tertiary "data-driven" attempts by self-designated geniuses to replace the tiresome and infinite details of history with reductionist laws, preferably ones that can be phrased as slogans at TED talks. It may sell in the present market, but it's rarely deep or serious scholarship.

In any case, we should suspend ALL POSTS on this thread that aren't about the French uprising. Your attempted defamations of the Yellow Vests as secretly racists or whatever have fallen flat and do not remotely apply; these are basically the pro-Macron neoliberal media lies of first resort. So you found a way to derail this thread instead, by ignoring the events and the movement in France. Instead you've diverted us into some crotchety old man's defense of the wonders and achievements of "NATO" and "The West" and capitalism globally (conventional wisdom from the 1950s dressed up in faux-millennial edgelordism). This in turn reinforces your other lie, that somehow the Russkies or the fascist internationale are running the French protests, or at any rate will benefit, so that the protesters had better stop right away lest they help the foreign enemies.

I should not have taken the bait.

.

I’m disappointed in you Jack. This angry tone is not going to win over those who don’t (yet) get it. There are many, many people who are susceptible to the steady drumbeat of university and mainstream media propaganda, and most of them are not ”crochety old men” but young and impressionable.

As they say—you can’t take down the masters house with SJW weapons.

For an exploration of the problem please reflect on this video.*





We’re all seeking to understand a confusing world. Jerky may be sincere but lacking in context and information, just like ten or twenty other people you may know. Refuting him, but in a respectful manner may not only win him over, but may help others too.


*Please don’t take this personally Jack. I sympathize with most of your viewpoints but wish you could tone down the outrage directed at other posters and eliminate personal attacks. They don’t help our cause.

[Sounder]

Well, just wait a gosh darned minute here.

I sympathize with Jack, he sees a lot more tertiary, historical and side connections that others do not see. SJW's work out of a cookbook, Jack does not. I may not like what Jack says about me but at least he brings informed comment and analysis.

But yes, Heaven Swan, trying to be more civil is always good practice.

(sorry for the hijack)

[Heaven Swan]

^^^
I’m not referring to what he says, but only to how he (sometimes) says it.