The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Harvey » Mon May 13, 2019 6:32 am

coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 8:24 am wrote:Rocket:
I think Jack staked a pretty even-keeled position there, dontcha think?


Yes, he did - if you believe that AOC may be coming to make your country a more comfortable place in which to exist.

But I do not believe she is coming to do that.

Believe it or not, my comments at this board are not (and have never been) aimed at the individuals that take part here, but at the ideas that they promote through the information and views that they post.


Alright, mate?

She's another Obama and has the added value of, what would you call it, lapsed gravitas? She's likeable where Obama was merely polished and articulate and she's demonstrated that she 'understands the arguments.' She's also indicated that she isn't advocating a departure from business as usual so much as a radical return to business as usual. That is, Feel Good about America Again. She's already indicated that the wars will continue and she'll feel bad about it so that you don't have to. More to the point, she's offering limited improvement to the lives of Americans. The world will still burn, but you'll have some respite and a cup of water while it happens.

Tulsi seems real enough and possibly strong enough to make a fight of it. She's smart enough for the battles we're told are politically unwinnable (by the grey establishment) but which have massive popular support and which she can articulate the path toward, for most Americans. She's ignored by all the right people, attacked by the all the right people and willing to work outside the red/blue party if need be.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 7:28 am

All good, thx Harv.

lapsed gravitas


Great description - 'just enough one of us' :)

She's followed the right path to power and suddenly, as if by magic, she bursts upon the scene out of nowhere, in a similar fashion to many UK Prime Ministers. Feted by the mainstream as some sort of rogueish rebel, espousing social policies that will scare the crap out of diehard conservatives. Not that voting makes any difference - we get who is chosen for us, anyhow. Diebold proved that, 20 years ago. She's a plant, as witness will bear, should she become CEO of America.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 13, 2019 8:42 am

.

Oof, you people.

Anyone could be one of your "Establishment plants." Obviously there have been so many. Tulsi Gabbard could also be one. There is no reason why it could not be so, except the incomplete available evidence. But as you show, one can fill that in with any preferred prefab pattern, which is what you do. Basically we're all sitting here, genitals in hand, trying to figure things out, except some of us are even lazier than that. You are all in Hunchville, a place I like to visit daily, but I hope not so that I forget it's only Hunchville. I hope I do not too often display the same deadbrained certainty that has such feel-good appeal for you, since it assures you that the nothing you do and the discouragement you spread are wonderful gifts to the world.

Show the goods, lazybones. In 2008 we had no trouble demonstrating the path of the Obama to come, based on taking his policy proposals at face value (no elaborate filling-in needed about what he might have "really" meant, since he supported the bankster bailout) and based on his known record and bio and rhetoric to that point. (Despite this I even voted for him, for tactical reasons I described in these pages.) On AOC, you've got nothing but Hunchville. It's a bet that can pan out your way. If so, you'll be smug, and feel yourselves confirmed, and I'll be angry that she crapped out and sold out like many have before.

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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 10:10 am

Yes Jack, I get it that anyone who doesn't see things like you do is a 'deadbrain', a wanker or a lazybones. I'd be grateful if you stuck to your word - and ignored me. Insults are standard proceedure here at RI, but they're a bit passe now and only ever worked on the shallowest, basest of levels.

I do respect your hope that things will change - because I too have that hope - but change is not going to come from a candidate that is endorsed by the mainstream. It's as simple as that. The fact that she has had a Netflix feel good moving image made about her speaks volumes to her mainstream connections.

However, we are not a million miles apart, Jack. And I'll wager you hate that. Because you do so love to hate.

Tulsi? Who knows? Same(ish) political career path, conservative in outlook at heart, but making the right noises to serve as a natural foil to AOC. Seems possibly a bit too timely to me, Harv. Two strong ladies come forth at the same moment. But she's less transparent than AOC, frankly.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 13, 2019 10:37 am

coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 9:10 am wrote:Yes Jack, I get it that anyone who doesn't see things like you do is a 'deadbrain', a wanker or a lazybones.


Absolutely not. That was definitely about you, not "anyone who doesn't see things like" I do. Also, it's just as true on those occasions when you happen to see things as I do! It's your "method" that is the problem.

If we agree, I get nervous about what I might have done wrong.

I'd be grateful if you stuck to your word - and ignored me.


Absolutely. Just as I was doing. So to return to that, you need do no more than never again reply to anything I write, and I'll do the same. Nothing stops you from polluting any thread you like, unfortunately. Just don't respond to me, like you did above, and I'll be happy to vice-versa that.

I do respect your hope that things will change - because I too have that hope - but change is not going to come from a candidate that is endorsed by the mainstream.


You seem to be confusing incipient auto-da-fe with endorsement, but that's not surprising.

The fact that she has had a Netflix feel good moving image made about her speaks volumes to her mainstream connections.


Actually, this comment only speaks to your inability to understand the relative market weight and reach of media products, or the relative difficulty, in 2019, of making such films.

Seems possibly a bit too timely to me, Harv. Two strong ladies come forth at the same moment. But she's less transparent than AOC, frankly.


Oh my goodness! Two?! That many? At the same moment? Women?!

Halp!!!

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Mon May 13, 2019 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 10:40 am

:rofl2
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby DrEvil » Mon May 13, 2019 4:26 pm

Oh my goodness! Two?! That many? At the same moment? Women?!

Halp!!!


I think you just nailed a good chunk of the opposition to AOC: she's a woman, and she's uppity to boot. Some people just can't handle that (if she was black someone would probably have tried to kill her by now). You just have to take a look at the fascist wing of the media to see the frothing-at-the-mouth hatred, the insults and character assassinations (Occasional Cortex with her googly eyes. LOL). Even here there have been comments about how there must be men in the wings writing her talking points, because she couldn't possibly do that herself.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 5:05 pm

LOL, you guys are masters at this smearing game. I mention that there are two strong females in the race and all of a sudden my comment is being linked to the concept of women-haters and racist killers. There as much factual basis to that insinuation as the statement that Dr Evil is a pedophile because he once used the word 'children' and Jack Riddler is a rapist because he once used the word 'sex'. Get a grip and try to engage, rather than enrage. Boring.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 13, 2019 5:51 pm

coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm wrote:I mention that there are two strong females in the race


No, you did not. You cited this as a phenomenon so amazing, so unusual, that in itself it is reason enough to suspect their appearance is being orchestrated for nefarious purposes. Like two is just too much to believe they're merely steering themselves. There has to be a plot afoot. Tough shit if your own statements make you look like a fool. The best thing is probably not to make it worse by tripling down, as if we didn't read what you wrote. There's really no need for you to keep running into the blows like this. Try a break!

(Also there are six women so far in the Democratic race, and they are each, almost necessarily, "strong" in their own way, if we take that word generically, except maybe for Klobuchar. And there are literally hundreds of women credibly entering politics right now. Probably all paid by the Rockefeller Foundation, as the late Aaron Russo would have it.)


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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:47 am

coffin_dodger » 12 May 2019 15:30 wrote:She's an Establishment plant - the sooner you come to terms with this, the less disappointed you'll be when she backtracks on every promise when in power. You can apologise for her all you want, but if the mainstream is presenting her as anything but a raving lunatic, it's a cert she's been bought and paid for.


Well. Faux News is presenting her as a raving lunatic night after night after night and for some reason appears obsessed with doing so.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby DrEvil » Tue May 14, 2019 12:48 pm

coffin_dodger » Mon May 13, 2019 11:05 pm wrote:LOL, you guys are masters at this smearing game. I mention that there are two strong females in the race and all of a sudden my comment is being linked to the concept of women-haters and racist killers. There as much factual basis to that insinuation as the statement that Dr Evil is a pedophile because he once used the word 'children' and Jack Riddler is a rapist because he once used the word 'sex'. Get a grip and try to engage, rather than enrage. Boring.


I wasn't talking about you, you just reminded me of a comment from earlier in this thread. Try to keep up.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 14, 2019 3:24 pm

coffin_dodger » 13 May 2019 07:24 wrote:Rocket:
I think Jack staked a pretty even-keeled position there, dontcha think?


Yes, he did - if you believe that AOC may be coming to make your country a more comfortable place in which to exist.

But I do not believe she is coming to do that.

Believe it or not, my comments at this board are not (and have never been) aimed at the individuals that take part here, but at the ideas that they promote through the information and views that they post.


Here's my idea. Even if AOC were a 100% bought and paid for establishment plant from the start, the ideas she communicates are critically important to disseminate to the widest possible audience. The reason Faux News has made AOC public enemy number one from day one is to inoculate their audience against her ideas. When was the last time you heard any establishment politicians (or any corporate media "personalities") with a large and growing public platform advocate for soaking the rich? Funny how unpopular (even verboten) our corporate media has managed to portray such an extremely popular viewpoint among average Americans, isn't it?

If AOC is indeed an establishment plant, I would like to see a thousand more simply because most Americans today do not even believe that any truly positive change is possible in our current political climate.

Image

So 51% of Democratic voters believe that they need to self-triangulate their own political views because that's how both their "team" and corporate media have conditioned them over their entire lifetimes.

In this context, AOC's victory and popularity is a truly positive force whether her opposition voice is real or manufactured, The two party system will never produce any positive change until the majority of Democratic voters stop believing the corporate media, DNC, and polling company propagated myth that they have to self-triangulate their own views on American Imperialism, our ruling oligarchs, and our human right to healthcare in order to have any chance to win any election. Progressive Americans must stop fearing and start embracing their own personal political inclination to make love not war. As Trump found out as he was winging his stump speeches, very few Americans actually like the USA's imperialistic excesses and very few actually agree with the agenda of the multinational corporate globalists and imperialists whose propaganda fills every corporate media venue 24/7.

Progressives are (or at least soon will be) the new silent majority, and we need to stop fearing that our common sense priorities and modest ideas about restraining the worst excesses of capitalism and imperialism are too "radical" for rest of the electorate because they simply aren't. It is only because of 24/7 corporate media framing that so many of us believe that they are.

More succinctly: After a lifetime of seeing every critique of ever increasing wealth inequality and security state/military/prison expansion decried as "class warfare" and "threatening our security", I'm more than happy to embrace any and all establishment plants so long as they keep using their public platforms to disseminate better ideas.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 14, 2019 3:34 pm

coffin_dodger » 13 May 2019 21:05 wrote:LOL, you guys are masters at this smearing game. I mention that there are two strong females in the race and all of a sudden my comment is being linked to the concept of women-haters and racist killers. There as much factual basis to that insinuation as the statement that Dr Evil is a pedophile because he once used the word 'children' and Jack Riddler is a rapist because he once used the word 'sex'. Get a grip and try to engage, rather than enrage. Boring.


You're a misogynist - the sooner you come to terms with this, the less disappointed you'll be when you realize this tragic flaw on your deathbed.

See, there just ain't that much to engage with at that level of disparagement postulated as a certain conclusion in the absence of any premise other than anything that looks good is always actually bad.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Harvey » Tue May 14, 2019 6:00 pm

I'm fairly certain CD isn't a misogynist. I agree with you that AOC is promoting better ideas than 99.9% of the political landscape and I disagree with CD that she's a plant, as such. She has however been thrust forward for a reason and in that he's almost correct. The fact that she already defers to the war establishment on Venezuela and Iran tells you what you can expect with regard to foreign policy. Someone challenged her on her support for Corbyn and instead of consulting, or doing some research with her staff she accepted the ant-Semitism narrative which tells everyone who's listening what her real position on Israel is going to be.

By comparison, Tulsi has already faced death, she's under few illusions about what she'll face in office. She pays attention, she's open about the state of the state, she has a natural ally in Ihlan Omar and AOC and others and she can probably make some difference with their help whereas AOC will inevitably follow in Obama's footsteps, continued acceleration of all the present trends, but like Obama, you'll probably feel better about it. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump did not deviate in any way, all have accelerated oil/coal/gas extraction, all have increased the defence budget, all backed tax cuts for the richest, all failed to stand up to the insurance companies and deliver meaningful health care, let alone universal health care, all further accelerated environmental destruction, financial deregulation, security state growth and war. All caved in to big business. The only marked difference between them was how the media reported it and how Americans felt about it.
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Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue May 14, 2019 10:11 pm

.

AOC will inevitably follow in Obama's footsteps, continued acceleration of all the present trends, but like Obama, you'll probably feel better about it. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump did not deviate in any way, all have accelerated oil/coal/gas extraction, all have increased the defence budget, all backed tax cuts for the richest, all failed to stand up to the insurance companies and deliver meaningful health care, let alone universal health care, all further accelerated environmental destruction, financial deregulation, security state growth and war. All caved in to big business. The only marked difference between them was how the media reported it and how Americans felt about it.


Good summary.

As you suggest, the only marked difference is in the outward optics: the pandering to the talking head's respective demographic. Net results are largely the same.

Again and again.
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