The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Grizzly » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:09 pm

We don't have any in Montana. And I'm working class poor ... I do more than, armchair on the interwebs ... I've been on the front page of the Missoulian numerous times.
Last edited by Grizzly on Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If Barthes can forgive me, “What the public wants is the image of passion Justice, not passion Justice itself.”
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:11 pm

Dont have any what?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Grizzly » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:13 pm

child immigrants ...
If Barthes can forgive me, “What the public wants is the image of passion Justice, not passion Justice itself.”
User avatar
Grizzly
 
Posts: 3263
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:54 pm

.
seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:04 pm wrote:
All I read here is deflection and inaction


There is no 'deflection' here. You are misreading, or misinterpreting, or misrepresenting.

Also, you -- or anyone else reading this -- have no visibility into whatever actions or inactions are taken by those that participate or simply lurk here, unless they volunteer such information. You are presuming much.

Everyone here is largely clear about what Trump represents. No one is implying we should "give up". However, the implication that Trump's would-be ouster would offer any substantive change to The System is where some of us differ in opinion.

Trump, and AOC, operate within the same system that will continue to do what it's been doing for a long time. Strike at the root, not the branches, if true change is desired.

-------------


Let's bring this back to the topic of AOC, now, please --- or is every single GD discussion going to devolve into TRUMP-fixation?

Have at it, in any event. I've nothing further to add at this time.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:59 pm

As usual you are putting words in my mouth it is what you do best
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:00 pm

HERE IT IS

Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:19 am wrote:.

these are serious crimes against the citizens of the United States



Crimes against the citizens of the U.S. have been ongoing for decades, perpetrated by govt representatives from both parties.

This same govt has also perpetrated crimes against humanity overseas as well... for decades.

Garbage In, Garbage Out. Rinse, Repeat.



And now I am finished with you in this thread don’t ask me to go off topic again


I will be back when AOC starts her questioning
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:04 pm

.
seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:59 pm wrote:As usual you are putting words in my mouth it is what you do best


sigh

How can I put words in your mouth if I quoted what you typed? It's on the bottom of the prior page:

seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:04 pm wrote:
All I read here is deflection and inaction


Also:

seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:00 pm wrote: don’t ask me to go off topic again


I did no such thing.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:08 pm

However, the implication that Trump's would-be ouster would offer any substantive change to The System



I implied no such thing....I SAID NO SUCH THING


and again you are off topic but if you insist in continuing to address me I will answer you ...if you want to continue to be off topic ...your pleasure not mine
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:16 pm

.

So then WHY all your pervasive/never-ending Trump-related threads, if you don't believe it'll offer any change to the system? I'm sure you can at least appreciate why one would presume that you've been implying this given your, er, passion for keeping everyone posted on any/all Trump-related news items, going on 2+ years now.

Feel free to cross-post this in one of your many Trump-related threads so that it will be ON TOPIC.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:18 pm

my postings are to document proof of the international crimes of trump and his family...please refrain from inserting your opinion of why I post as matter of fact ....you are wrong ...again putting words in my mouth..


and could you please stop this and taking this thread off topic
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:22 pm

.

I see. So Google News/CNN/Buzzfeed et al. haven't provided enough documentation, in your view, apparently. You've chosen an interesting platform -- a relatively obscure forum with dwindling participation -- for such an initiative.

I'm done.
User avatar
Belligerent Savant
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Location: North Atlantic.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:23 pm

no I have been posting here for 14 years ...NO ONE EVER SCOLDED ME FOR POSTIING THE CRIMES OF THE BUSH FAMILY

NO ONE EVER OBJECTED TO LINKS I USED WHEN DOCUMENTING BUSH CRIMES...NO ONE EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT C/P WHEN DOCUMENTING THE BUSH CRIME FAMILY ...KEEPING TRACK OF THE IRAQ WAR OR VALERIE PLAME OR YELLOWCAKE...UNTIL 2 1/2 YEARS AGO I RECEIVED NO SUSTAINED PERSONAL ATTACKS


However, the implication that Trump's would-be ouster would offer any substantive change to The System


change the name to Bush ...you never made that argument

YEA I HOPE YOU ARE DONE

again I would like to get back on topic would you please stop addressing me about off topic subjects so I do not have to reply to your in accuracies


My apologies to PufPuf93 ......hopefully now we can get back on topic
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:50 pm

.

Observation, then I go again:

The American empire system is not static, it changes. It produces crises as a function of its operation, and until now its managers at each stage have always successfully reproduced it through their response to the systemic crises. (Not that it was ever easy. Oh, the travails of the ruling class!) The system adopts modified forms after each round of crisis.

Several generations on from its new birth and globalization during World War II, confronted with many global power shifts and loss of domestic consensus, it has entered a particularly unstable period. This was incipient already during the imaginary new golden age of the late 1990s, and blew up with the big crisis manifestation of 2007-9.

The ascendance of a Trump, especially the Trump, who is like the Platonic form of himself and was already a top-10 celebrity, is a terrible symptom of power elite decline and the more general socio-ideological decay. In part, this is because he is such an exemplary product of this system -- fourteen seasons of NBC The Apprentice are no lie -- and also such an obvious and (formally) criminal case of everything wrong with it. The personal flourish he adds is that he is also a busy, angry, senescent loudmouth. Not incidentally, this was the key to his base appeal, the secret sauce by which he effected the hostile takeover of the GOP. Amid the hourly lies and dissembling and rambling, he regularly lets out unspeakable truths about how the system actually works. ("Do you think we don't have killers?" "Take their oil." "Grab them by the pussy.") Therefore his ouster initially seemed necessary, even inevitable, also because of the instability involved when a mid-level money-laundering con-artist family org headed by a whack-job playing Hitler on TV purports to run the empire by fiat pronouncements. It posed an unprecedented disaster for systemic credibility.

The regime's attempted solution has been, predictably, to ally very closely with the worst avatars of imperial adventurism, the worst elements among the foreign allies, and the most aggressive elements of the real Deep State, which resides in places like Langley and is currently chieftained by Pompeo Maximus and Mini-Bolton. (I don't think the Dulles brothers would have ever seen that coming. And there is no McCloy or Rockefeller figure able to create consensus, I mean who? Bloomberg? Gates? Bezos?!) From the start, they have been looking for what I called America's New War, Part 2017.

The attempted response of the rump establishment power elite has been to cast the Little Gangster From Queens Who Could as a foreign enemy run by remote from a distant capital. Nothing less than the post-modern Red Scare 3.0 would suffice, and it synced for those who prefer that We Have Always Been at War with Eurasia not Eastasia. (This factional wrangling over whether China or Russia is the Global Enemy meanwhile drives them together.)

Which brings us to today's installment. The Cohen testimony is exemplary of the contradiction between Trump as the unwanted kitschy flower of the American system who practically had the presidency handed to him by the corporate media, as against the attempt to style his ascent as the product of a deeply hidden foreign intervention. Cohen presented a theatrical exposure of the conventional criminal Trump Organization, with solid evidence from the inside such as the financial disclosures and the check used to buy the silence of Trump's temp-job courtesans. But the show requires the Russia-Wikileaks narrative to be pasted on, and treated as though it is somehow the news lede, through the device of Cohen saying he heard (most likely true) about how his fellow grifter, Roger Stone, was running his own con on the Trumps, bragging about his made-up inside line to Assange.

Trump being ousted for his assuredly criminal dealings as an exemplary standard capitalist wealth-maximizer is damaging to a wobbly system in which a growing majority now justifiably hates the billionaires, and a glimmer of good news for those hoping for a better world. His being ousted for the #Russiagate construct is seen as the best outcome for the system, and is of course potentially very bad for hopes of a better world, given that it involves perpetuation (and added destabilization) of the global state of nuclear superpower cold war.

.

(That belonged elsewhere but there are too many threads to choose from, and in any case I am responding to the current exchanges on this thread. I hope soon that the rest of the posts on this thread will be on topic.)

(Now also cross posted on the #Russiagate analysis thread where it does belong.)

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15344
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:47 pm

AOC is up and running :)

questions about

asks about David Pecker's private docs ..where they are

trump inflated assets to insurance companies

trump golf organization 127 million tax payers money to build it ...trump profits

trump devalued assets

under valued his parents assets


but Tlaib's on FIRE!

ON FIRE...called a member of the committee a racist...well not exactly :P

everybody arguing about who is a racist and who is not

this was about a republican bringing in a black woman in as a prop to show trump is not a racist ...a brown woman on the panel Tlaib found that offensive

just a reminder who brought the black woman in as a prop

"We'll send him back to Kenya, or wherever it is," GOP Rep Mark Meadows said about President Obama, while laughing hard. This is the second video to surface today where Meadows promotes the racist birther conspiracy theory.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRK3FwmjH-Y

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Just Expertly Laid a Trap to Get Donald Trump’s Tax Returns

Her line of questioning during Michael Cohen’s hearing was praised for its clarity and deftness.

Inae OhFebruary 27, 2019 5:08 PM

Alex Brandon/AP


While Republicans on Wednesday repeatedly hammered Michael Cohen over his efforts to secure a lucrative media deal, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez used her time to focus on one of the most consequential topics concerning investigations into President Donald Trump: his ever-elusive tax returns.

It was one of the more anticipated appearances by a lawmaker on the House Oversight and Reform Committee. Her clear and purposeful line of questioning, which appeared to lay the groundwork for the committee to subpoena the president’s tax returns while capturing the names of those in Trump’s inner circle who may know details of his financials, was widely praised:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Just Expertly Laid a Trap to Get Donald Trump’s Tax Returns

Her line of questioning during Michael Cohen’s hearing was praised for its clarity and deftness.



While Republicans on Wednesday repeatedly hammered Michael Cohen over his efforts to secure a lucrative media deal, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez used her time to focus on one of the most consequential topics concerning investigations into President Donald Trump: his ever-elusive tax returns.

It was one of the more anticipated appearances by a lawmaker on the House Oversight and Reform Committee. Her clear and purposeful line of questioning, which appeared to lay the groundwork for the committee to subpoena the president’s tax returns while capturing the names of those in Trump’s inner circle who may know details of his financials, was widely praised:https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-just-expertly-laid-a-trap-to-get-donald-trumps-tax-returns/
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: The RI thread about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Postby Elvis » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:28 pm

AOC NPR GND MMT.jpg


https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/02 ... t-pay.html

The Green New Deal: Just Focus on What We Do, Not How We Pay for It
Posted on February 28, 2019 by Yves Smith

By Marshall Auerback, a market analyst and commentator. Produced by Economy for All, a project of the Independent Media Institute

Extreme weather variations and increasingly dire scientific reports have spurred surprisingly robust policy proposals for a Green New Deal.

Rather admirably, the resolution sponsored by Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA) and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) marks a significant break from the usual “small ball” incrementalist approach to politics adopted in D.C., reflecting the increasingly prevailing view that the next decade or two is make-or-break for planet Earth.

The sheer scale of the ambitious proposal—net-zero greenhouse gas emissions, clean air and water, married to traditional bread-and-butter progressive issues, such as a job guarantee and universal health care—have led to two predictable lines of attack: The first is that the program represents full-on socialism: a grab bag of the left’s favorite policies, “with everything from universal health care to a job guarantee draped under the mantle of environmentalism,” as a recent New York Times opinion piece explains. The second issue is how we are going to pay for it, given that the proposed Green New Deal resolution envisages costs that will run into the trillions to undertake this whole restructuring of the U.S. economy.

Shorn of ideological rhetoric, the answer to the second question is actually quite simple. We “pay” for these specific proposals much as we do with any government initiative: Congress appropriates the funds, and the government literally spends the money into existence. The key point here is that when a government issues a currency that is not backed by any metal or pegged to another currency (i.e., the currency is created via government order, or “fiat,” hence the term, “fiat currency”), then there is no reason why it should be constrained in its ability to finance its spending by issuing currency in the way it was, say, under a gold standard (in which the supply of gold held by each nation literally controlled its capacity to spend). By extension, taxes don’t actually “fund” the government, so much as they constrain overall expenditures in the economy. In essence, government spending adds new money to the economy, whereas the imposition of taxes takes some of that money out again. The constant addition and subtraction of these spending and taxing activities is how “fiscal policy” actually works (and the sequencing is actually the opposite of what is traditionally taught in most economics textbooks). Likewise, as the monopoly issuer of the currency, the U.S. government (via the Federal Reserve) establishes the rates at which we borrow (not “the market”). It therefore follows that a sovereign currency-issuing government, unlike a private company, does not have market-based costs of capital that set the opportunity cost of their activities. This is important to remember when you hear politicians outlining how certain policy goals are somehow “constrained” by borrowing costs (or a particular discount rate).

This is also why private sector concepts such as “internal rates of return” (IRR) or “return on equity” (ROE) are only relevant in macroeconomic policy terms, to the extent that the appropriated capital is used as productively as possible to mitigate possible inflationary pressures, as opposed to whether this spending ultimately generates a profit or loss for the government. To put it another way, even if the government’s “balance sheet” is adversely affected by poorly conceived and executed policy choices, these mistakes have no bearing on whether the United States, as the currency issuer, has the “fiscal capacity” to meet any future crisis (in contrast to a private firm, which can’t afford to misuse its finite capital resources, lest cumulative losses drive it out of business). As such, costs and benefits must be measured largely in social terms, rather than financial terms, even as we acknowledge that the damage to GDP from the negative effects of climate change can be substantial.

Note that although there is no financial constraint on the ability of a sovereign nation to deficit spend, this does not mean that there are no real resource constraints on government spending; this is the real concern that should guide policy, not financial constraints. If government spending pushes the economy beyond full capacity, inflation will result. A government can create all of the currency it likes, but there are finite supplies of natural resources, labor, and other productive assets that form the backbone of an economy. Put another way, money is not scarce, but real resources can be. So if government spending does not add to the economy’s productive capacity, then excessive expenditures will almost certainly become inflationary, and that does represent a legitimate constraint. That is why the main focus of the Green New Deal should be on how the money is spent, rather than how the program is to be funded.

So in assessing how appropriated funds under a Green New Deal are spent, the decarbonization of the U.S. economy must be constructed with a view toward other broad social goals, which is why the Markey/Ocasio-Cortez resolution incorporates so many additional features that at first glance do not deal solely with environmental issues (a complaint recently made by Speaker Nancy Pelosi). A job guarantee, for example, must be a germane consideration in contemplating a substantial reduction and ultimately a full-on elimination of the fossil fuels industry. This not only means the hundreds of thousands of workers actually involved in the extraction, production, and distribution of oil, gas, coal, etc., but also the administrative and support jobs connected to these industries, and the communities adversely impacted by the resultant job losses.

To give some idea of the scale of potential jobs at risk here, a recent U.S. Energy and Employment report from 2017 estimates that there are “about 2.3 million jobs in Transmission, Distribution, and Storage, with approximately 982,000 working in retail trade (gasoline stations and fuel dealers) and another 830,000 working across utilities and construction.” It is virtually impossible to contemplate the implementation of a Green New Deal if it is not accompanied holistically by policies that address the potential job disruption. We don’t want to have this debate framed yet again within the sterile paradigm of “jobs vs. environment,” which is a political non-starter.

The Canadian Labor Congress, among others, has enumerated a number of possible jobs to which the displaced workers could transition. These jobs would include “the retrofitting of buildings for energy conservation, the retraining of workers to become energy auditors, developing renewable energy sources, promoting sustainable transport systems, supporting community-based sustainable industries, community revitalization projects, moving towards a complete waste recycling program, and creating a publicly owned infrastructure that will manage in the public good.”

There’s no question that a properly revived manufacturing sector would also lead to a revived working and middle class, because as the economist Seymour Melman explained, high-skill manufacturing leads to a process of economic growth that gives workers more power, economically and within the firm—even with mechanization and automation. To be sure, historically, manufacturing has often been associated with “dirty” industries. According to Jon Rynn, a fellow at the CUNY Institute of Urban Systems, emissions from manufacturing account for about 28 percent of greenhouse gas emissions. Once the electrical system is renewable, however, a substantial amount of these emissions is eliminated, because almost all industrial machinery uses electricity. So if the electricity is clean, manufacturing can expand without worsening the climate problem. Needless to say, this will require significant investments in energy efficiency alongside rapid decarbonization of power sources for as much of the economy as possible.

The broader question of inequality must also be tackled. We live in a world where things are interdependent. Hence, the whole concept of a just transition to an environmentally sustainable economy can only be adequately addressed when it is wrapped in a broader set of policies designed to help most Americans, which raises distributional questions that are part of the broader problem of today’s highly unequal economy. As the economists Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman have documented, tax data in the United States illustrates that top 0.1 percent now hold 22 percent of the total wealth in the United States—the same amount as the bottom 90 percent. This takes us back to levels of economic distribution that existed more than 100 years ago, when we barely had cars, unions were virtually non-existent, and social welfare provision was minuscule. Simply believing that creating a whole bunch of “clean tech” jobs in and of itself will resolve this problem is disingenuous, which is why the Markey/Ocasio-Cortez resolution specifically addresses the broader issue of economic inequality.

Failure to address the inequality question exacerbates the inflationary problem, because when increasing amounts of GDP are directed toward those with the highest savings propensities (i.e., the 1 percent), it means that the economy doesn’t grow as efficiently. This matters when we are addressing a genuine national emergency, such as climate change (as opposed to the faux “national emergency” related to Trump’s southern border wall).

The scale of the spending shouldn’t scare people. At $2 trillion a year, that’s around 10 percent of a $20 trillion economy. Put another way, the American government has spent greater sums in its Afghanistan and Iraq wars with no lasting productive benefit accruing to the U.S. economy (to say nothing of the social costs and global environmental degradation). By way of comparison, as Jon Rynn writes, “the Federal government paid for most of the machinery used to create the military equipment during World War II, and the corporations bought the factories for pennies on the dollar after the war ended.” To put it another way, the federal government did not “record a profit” on the sale of these assets, but the “return” came in the form of much of the industrial machinery that was the basis for the shared prosperity of the post-WWII boom, a period of unparalleled “shared prosperity” (emphasis added) for the United States.

We have to make choices, but the idea that we can’t make the right choices based on funding concerns is ridiculous. However, the policy goal embodied in the Green New Deal must be part of a broader policy framework, much as Franklin Delano Roosevelt ultimately conceived of his Economic Bill of Rights (which featured a government-funded health care provision) as an extension of the original New Deal. After all, the Green New Deal is as much about enhancing “human capital”—that is, increasing the wealth-generating capability of people—as it is about “physical capital,” the machinery and systems that are physical in nature. Speaking about one without the other is as misconceived as speaking about a tree outside the context of the forest in which it grows. Remember that, the next time someone dismisses the Green New Deal as a grab bag of policies designed to ensure a communist-style capture of the commanding heights of the economy.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 6829
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 15 guests