The Democratic Party, 2019

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:50 pm

I may have a more nuanced opinion on Native American issues than most as I live as a minority in an area that is more than 50% Native American and long ago graduated high school on a Reservation school 30 miles from my home. I am a multi-generational local and have many distant local NA relatives yet my genetics are northwestern European (Irish, Scotch-Irish, English, French, Swede, Dutch). My interest in NA issues has been both personal and professional.

Warren did a faux pas and set herself up for criticism over her claim to NA ancestry. But Warren apologized and, if anything, then result was that Warren has paid closer attention to NA issues. One would be surprised in how many NA support Trump and younger folks appear more interested in Tribal politics and are otherwise apolitical.

Here is Warren's campaign web site regards Native American issues (of which I agree on most points). To the best of my knowledge Warren has the most developed and stated NA policy agenda trhan any of the current POTUS candidates.

https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/tribal-nations
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:07 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:40 am wrote:
PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:20 am wrote:6) Warren is the best candidate for Native Americans (despite the manufactured controversy over her genetics, Warren has more to say about NA and is more woke about NA issues and conditions).


!

This is not remotely true.

There is a woman running who has a lot more to say about NA and is even more "woke" about NA issues and conditions, woke enough that she would never dream of making a fool of herself by presenting a DNA test confirming her remote ancestry.

She protested at Standing Rock in person and is an actual native American, or rather, a native Pacific Islander.

cut

Warren's policy proposal is very long, but doesn't seem to differ from Sanders'. Inform me if you feel otherwise. The question is which one of them can be trusted to actually mean it and stick to it in a crunch.

https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/tribal-nations
https://berniesanders.com/issues/empowe ... l-nations/

.


Agree Warren's policies as written are similar to those of Bernie Sanders.

The question is the matter of effectiveness in enacting legislation and policy and IMO Warren would be more effective than Sander just as she has been more effective in Congress than Sanders despite no where near the time in office. A major aspect of this effectiveness is that admittedly Warren is more establishment than Sanders.

Tulsi Gabbard is good at drawing attention to herself particularly as a Democratic party outlier but I (and most NA) consider the issues of pacific islanders as valid and similar but separate issues from North American NA. I like that Gabbard stirs the pot but do not believe Gabbard to be qualified to be POTUS.

Here is the currently pending H.R. 1312: Yurok Lands Act of 2019. Sanders and Gabbard are not as yet co-sponsors.

There are some items I dislike in the proposed HR 1312 legislation just as there are some items I disagree with regards to Tribal land management practices but overall good legislation. I would not like to see the Yurok Experimental Forest transferred to the Tribe because of the long continuity (unlikely to be maintained) of US Forest Service Research on the relatively small parcel. I also view the expansion of the reservation into National Forest lands as a step in a future land grab. That National Forest area is mostly federally designated Wilderness and NA input to any action is required to predominate by law and policy to feature Native American values and uses; current federal management (which is custodial rather than active in nature) supports Native American uses (gathering, spiritual activities, hunting, etc.) nearly exclusively. The Yurok (and adjacent Hupa) Tribes are two of the few entities that currently log true old growth timber (my definition is trees older than 1850, European encroachment of Gold Rush era) in California.

The Yurok Tribe recently after may years effort acquired 50,000 acres from Simpson/Green Diamond. What is not so obvious is that logging is likely to increase rather than decrease on the new acquisition.

10-Year Project Returns Ancestral Lands to Yurok Tribe and Conserves Blue Creek

http://kymkemp.com/2019/08/19/10-year-p ... lue-creek/

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr1312/text

Here is a summary press release by the Yurok Tribe:

https://kymkemp.com/2019/09/22/yurok-ch ... entatives/
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:17 pm

PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:07 pm wrote:The question is the matter of effectiveness in enacting legislation and policy and IMO Warren would be more effective than Sander just as she has been more effective in Congress than Sanders despite no where near the time in office.


This is claimed by the usual Sanders-bashing elements (which does not include you) but I don't think it is true. Sanders has succeeded in getting so many amendments included that he has come to be known as the "Amendments King." Recently he engineered the Yemen resolution that passed both houses, an impressive achievement. He got the Federal Reserve to release bailout details. He is very effective at making statements with real-world results, as with the STOP BEZOS Act that did not move forward but, as intended, prompted Amazon to raise wages.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby RocketMan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:25 pm

It is not a "faux pas" but a decades-long pattern of misrepresentation, as laid out in the article I posted.

She has recanted only under pressure. And she continues to muddy the waters around her devotion to Republican policies earlier in life. It's just shady af.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:22 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:17 am wrote:
PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:07 pm wrote:The question is the matter of effectiveness in enacting legislation and policy and IMO Warren would be more effective than Sander just as she has been more effective in Congress than Sanders despite no where near the time in office.


This is claimed by the usual Sanders-bashing elements (which does not include you) but I don't think it is true. Sanders has succeeded in getting so many amendments included that he has come to be known as the "Amendments King." Recently he engineered the Yemen resolution that passed both houses, an impressive achievement. He got the Federal Reserve to release bailout details. He is very effective at making statements with real-world results, as with the STOP BEZOS Act that did not move forward but, as intended, prompted Amazon to raise wages.


As stated elsewhere at RI, I supported Bernie Sanders in the 2016 primary and voted Sanders as a write in candidate in the general election.

Sanders has earned over time influence in Congress. But it took many years to gain his current profile. Warren has no where near the legislative experience but has been effective in her relatively brief time in office, Warren has an important skill set (economist) and IMO has more intellect and political restraint than Sanders. One could argue that in favoring Warren over Sanders I am suffering from the fallacy of moving to the middle and that is the case to a degree. But Warren does not have the negative baggage to the degree of Sanders, is younger and healthier, and is a woman (and about time for a woman POTUS). Warren looks to be a candidate with wider support specifically within the Democratic party (problem with HRC who was the most dislike of candidates within her own party).

Think it interesting that Sanders and Gabbart have not sponsored HR 1312. It would be a strong message regards NA issues. The Yurok are the wealthiest and largest (by enrolled membership) and have the 2nd largest Reservation and amount of trust lands (1st in Reservation size if HR1312 passes into law and the new acquisitions from Green Diamond are converted to trust status) of any Tribe in California. (edit is to clarify reservation vs land endowment vs trust status).

As an experiment I may drop an email to Warren suggesting she offer and sponsor a Senate version of HR 1312. Jared Huffman, my House Rep, is author of HR1312.
Last edited by PufPuf93 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:39 pm

RocketMan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:25 am wrote:It is not a "faux pas" but a decades-long pattern of misrepresentation, as laid out in the article I posted.

She has recanted only under pressure. And she continues to muddy the waters around her devotion to Republican policies earlier in life. It's just shady af.


We perceive Warren and her NA ancestry issue different in that more than deliberate misrepresentation Warren was tone-deaf and ignorant and then doubled down on tone deaf before realizing the degree of her faux pas.

It is not unusual for folks romanticized their ancestry as part NA, often from family anecdotes. That is what Warren did. When called on the issue, Warren doubled down on her ignorance and I would guess/hope had a learning moment.

It is common now for even enrolled NA to exaggerate the degree of their NA genetics just as during the overdone assimilation period some folks would deny their NA heritage, the same old story as how to most benefit and fit in with one's society.

I would wager that criticism of Warren's over stated NA heritage was propagated more by enemies of Warren and the Democratic party than by NA (that had good reason to call and correct Warren on her ancestry claim).
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:44 pm

To be honest, I think Warren's baggage is much worse.

Unlike almost any other American politician, people may hate him and reject him and mock him, but no one thinks Sanders is fake. (Only us and a few others like us, when he says something about Venezuela and certain other hot topics he fears to touch.) Also, he doesn't sell himself, although he is forced to play that game up to a point if there is to be any chance of winning. He sells a program. There's no doubt about what the substance is, or whether he means it and will try to get it. That's not just why I support him, as someone who wants this politics and believes it is only possible when one fights for it. It, the quality of believability, is also why other people like him, even if they are not fully with the program. It's why he has appeal in Trumpland, and more importantly, among those who don't vote and stopped giving a shit because they were forced to surrender belief in any of this shit.

Warren's hardly the worst at being fake but her triangulation, routine in the political class, is evident. Her persona is revised and invented so as to sell her. Not as bad as with so many other cases, but enough to be visible. It's hard to see her as more trustworthy than politicians generally are. She's probably not a fully purchased subsidiary like the majority of politikers but if she thinks it will win, she will do it. If she doesn't, she won't. Her appeal is strictly within the Democratic Party, among whites of the upper strata, and among some of the wolves of the corporate media and capitalist establishment who want ABB above all. If Bernie were out, most of them would instantly turn on her and do all to destroy her, to make way for Lord Pete or some other alternative; though they are running out of them, it is true. (I keep assuming Biden is done, and he probably is.) The fake WFP notwithstanding, workers don't believe in her, even if she may get the labor endorsements. Even Biden's support is far more diverse and working class and if and when he goes down, much more of that vote is going to Sanders. The shift to talking "corruption" rather than system as the main issue makes it very hard to take her seriously, no matter how long the policy prescriptions.

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:06 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:44 pm wrote:To be honest, I think Warren's baggage is much worse.

Unlike almost any other American politician, people may hate him and reject him and mock him, but no one thinks Sanders is fake. (Only us and a few others like us, when he says something about Venezuela and certain other hot topics he fears to touch.) Also, he doesn't sell himself, although he is forced to play that game up to a point if there is to be any chance of winning. He sells a program. There's no doubt about what the substance is, or whether he means it and will try to get it. That's not just why I support him, as someone who wants this politics and believes it is only possible when one fights for it. It, the quality of believability, is also why other people like him, even if they are not fully with the program. It's why he has appeal in Trumpland, and more importantly, among those who don't vote and stopped giving a shit because they were forced to surrender belief in any of this shit.

Warren's hardly the worst at being fake but her triangulation, routine in the political class, is evident. Her persona is revised and invented so as to sell her. Not as bad as with so many other cases, but enough to be visible. It's hard to see her as more trustworthy than politicians generally are. She's probably not a fully purchased subsidiary like the majority of politikers but if she thinks it will win, she will do it. If she doesn't, she won't. Her appeal is strictly within the Democratic Party, among whites of the upper strata, and among some of the wolves of the corporate media and capitalist establishment who want ABB above all. If Bernie were out, most of them would instantly turn on her and do all to destroy her, to make way for Lord Pete or some other alternative; though they are running out of them, it is true. (I keep assuming Biden is done, and he probably is.) The fake WFP notwithstanding, workers don't believe in her, even if she may get the labor endorsements. Even Biden's support is far more diverse and working class and if and when he goes down, much more of that vote is going to Sanders. The shift to talking "corruption" rather than system as the main issue makes it very hard to take her seriously, no matter how long the policy prescriptions.

.


Agree that Bernie Sanders is far from fake and essentially everything else you say is close to reality.

I would like to see Warren with Sanders as VP. Problem is that the Democratic party establishment is unlikely to favor one of them much less both. I can see the scenario where similar to Obama, Warren as a candidate is farther left than she governs.

People never mention why the Democratic party lost the 2016 POTUS to Trump. HRC had to simply ask Sanders to join her ticket as VP an unite the party for the good of the nation.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:09 pm

PufPuf93 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:06 pm wrote:I would like to see Warren with Sanders as VP.


There is zero chance of this.

You might see Sanders with Warren, so as to get the nomination. If she is willing.

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby RocketMan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:34 pm

Regarding the NA claim, I defer to your better understanding of American culture in this matter, PufPuf, and accept that it's plausible that she has been to some degree self-deluded. Obviously there are deep cultural issues at play here that are not easy to discern from over here.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby Grizzly » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:03 am

Image

https://twitter.com/howleyreporter/status/1179893713214025729?s=21

https://twitter.com/howleyreporter/status/1179893713214025729?s=21

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby stickdog99 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:59 am

PufPuf93 » 04 Oct 2019 15:20 wrote:
RocketMan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:17 am wrote:Why would you "easily" favour Warren over Sanders? This never ceases to be puzzling to me, this phenomenon. She's Sanders Light. She copies his policies, hell, she even recently copied his idea of "anti-endorsements". She will fold like a cheap suit if elected on her most radical policies, which are fuzzy to begin with.


First I am perpetually fated to having to vote for politicians who would not be my choice and have experienced this fact since first registered to vote in 1971.

I favor Warren over Sanders because:

1) Warren has broader and more moderate appeal (and is thus more electable)
2) Warren is calmer in personality.
3) Warren is more intelligent and has the detailed knowledge of a economist.
4) Warren is younger and of better health than Sanders.
5) Warren is a woman and it is past time to break the barrier of a woman POTUS.
6) Warren is the best candidate for Native Americans (despite the manufactured controversy over her genetics, Warren has more to say about NA and is more woke about NA issues and conditions).
7) Warren looks to be a strong environmental POTUS.

I voted Sanders in the 2016 CA primary and wrote in Sanders in the final election. If CA had actually been in play, I may have voted HRC to avoid Trump (though I hold HRC in distain and distrust and ultimately blame HRC for Trump ever being POTUS).


Since much of your discussion about Warren hinges on her electability, you might find this post informative.

If I thought any status quo candidate were a shoo in against Trump, I might find the "We have to compromise our beliefs because the only thing that matters this election cycle is beating Trump" argument persuasive because Trump is just that bad.

Instead, I think Sanders matches up the best against Trump because all of Sanders' supposed weaknesses (too senile, too male, too white, too radical, too repetitive, too loud, too angry, too pro-gun, too anti-establishment, too anti-trade, solutions too simplistic and sloganeering, supporters too aggressive) apply doubly or trebly to Trump. Plus, Sanders is scandal free, and Sanders can actually honestly run his campaign as the legitimate (rather than con artist) outsider reformer of our clearly corrupt insider establishment, which robs Trump of one of his biggest electoral assets against all of the other contenders for the Democratic nomination.

Every criticism against Sanders applies doubly to Trump, so he leaves Trump no avenue of attacking. And once currently unengaged citizens realize that they have an opportunity to vote for a politician with the unique approach of actually fighting to better the lives of normal, everyday US citizens, there will be a groundswell of new voter support for Sanders. While I would not cry about a Warren presidency by any means, she has very unfortunately provided Trump with a clear avenue to attack her as an Ivy League academic false claimer of Native American heritage.

Bernie's justly righteous anger against our corrupt corporate and political establishment would play very well in a general election against Trump, in my humble opinion. I want our Democratic candidate to get into a shouting match for a change. There are millions of American males who continually vote for whichever candidate yells the loudest, err, "projects the most strength." Sanders does extremely well with independent voters, and especially white male independent voters. That's how he always manages to carry rural Vermont, and that's why he trounced Clinton in both West Virginia and Wisconsin in the 2016 primaries.

Sanders' ideas are so appealing to so many that our rich oligarchs are willing to risk the small reforms a Warren presidency would attempt to enact just to stop Sanders. Furthermore, because of the absurd voting proclivities of white males in the United States, Sanders is far more electable than Warren is. The corporate oligarchs who actually control the USA know this and are therefore doing everything in their power to make certain that anybody, anybody, anybody but Sanders gets the Democratic party nomination. While they are willing to risk a Warren presidency to stop Sanders, big money interests strongly prefer four more years of Trump's destructive plutocratic ineptitude to the specter of any President who would dare to advocate for any policies in the actual interest of normal US citizens at their expense. (That's why they pumped over $125 million into Trump's reelection campaign last quarter.) And they know Trump has a far better chance of reelection against Warren than Trump has against Sanders.

Right now, corporate media outlets are treating the Warren campaign with kid gloves. All they are reporting about Warren is good news. If and when she secures the nomination, I predict that their knives will come out for her in full force.
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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:38 am

I agree with you stickdog. I too, believe Bernie is the best candidate to beat Trump and resurrect the Democratic Party. I've related before that I felt Warren a bit flakey, due to her presentation and her staccato sort of speaking style, as though impaired by a debilitating disease. But between Warren, a former republican, and a DINO, a Biden, a lifelong conservative Democrat, a DINO. A neo-liberal, which is just what I imagine Warren will be, if elected. But the old Dem folks only know and trust Biden, and they can't trust Bernie, solely because of the many years of negative press he's received while in office. That he represents Vermont, should not be taken lightly by his naysayers; it's Vermont, after all, and long a Red state even though its been trending left lately. An old and leaking nuclear plant, now closed, helped push this trend, simply because everyone understood the danger the plant posed. (Rex will correct me, I hope, if I gotten this in any part wrong.) And let's not for a moment forget, Warren's no spring chicken, herself. Which candidate has aroused our youth to develop such an interest in politics, Tulsi Gabbard? 70 year old Warren? No. It was Bernie Sanders.

But the neo-liberals still wearing the Democratic label want to keep control of the party and so it will be Biden, unless he opts out, and he should sometime soon, before January, or it will be Warren the party diehards unite behind, foolishly trusting the party line, to its ultimate defeat.

Many folks see this as the most important presidential election in history, that the fate of our democracy is at risk, and that I believe is true. Trump's already gotten his troops all fired up and they're rarin' to go to town on liberals, or those they suspect of having been liberal democrats, if he loses. Bernie is the only one with enough chutzpah to call for the revocation of the Patriot Act and the abolition of Homeland Security, and the re-establishment of our Department of Defense. Biden and Warren would never so such a thing, but Bernie would.

If any of you truly desire the collapse of our government, you have no idea of what reality you wish for.

I will surely be dead before the '24 election. Please don't give me a stroke before then by re-electing the world's most idiotic and embarrassing leader in '20.

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby stickdog99 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:18 pm

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Re: The Democratic Party, 2019

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:46 pm

Jesus fuck, this nonsense approach to attacking the dragon that is burning the world down has maneuvered D-partisans into defending legal payola for the offspring of the Democratic establishment and the provision of arms to Nazi paramilitaries in the Ukraine, while also condemning Medicare 4 All and Bernie as too radical for the election! Win-win-win, DNC!
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