Christchurch, New Zealand

[Harvey]

Great stuff Jack. Do you feel the article expresses your view well?

[MacCruiskeen]

Although quite interestingly, he's trying not to conflate Zionism and Judaism while most media are doing their best to confuse any understanding. You can take that as a statement of fact rather than as tacit approval.

Precisely.

Talking of "feel-o-matics", note how many people know, just know, that Mossad had nothing to do with it and could not possibly have had anything to with it,
. How they know this they do not say. They also know (somehow) that when he says "I suspect Mossad involvement" this is actually a "trope" meaning "I blame all Jews everywhere".

From the article:

After the video of the speech was posted on Twitter, the New Zealand Jewish community quickly responded.

“These conspiracy theories are dangerous lies. They put the Jewish community at risk, at a time of heightened security concerns,” said New Zealand Jewish Council spokesperson Juliet Moses. “Conspiracy theories — particularly the idea that Jews (whether through the Jewish state or otherwise) are a malevolent controlling force in the world — are at the very core of antisemitism.”

Who's conflating there? (And dangerously.) Who's blurring the distinction between "Mossad" and "all Jews everywhere"? She. Not he. Who's throwing around the CIA's favourite weaponised term? She. Not he. She and a thousand others:

Google search term: Ahmed Bhamji, chairman of the Mt Roskill Masjid E Umar mosque

Take a look at the first few pages of those 1,940 returns. What an uproar. An orgy of conflation and misrepresentation. Please let me know if you can find a single hack among 'em who even bothered to contact this man for clarification or expansion of his remarks, which were reprinted -- with ellipses -- as snippets from a one-minute edited video clip, presumably from a much longer address.

He was not pretending to know. Those hacks are. They must have very effective feel-o-matics indeed. Maybe even spidey-senses,

[MacCruiskeen]

I really want to say one thing today. Do you think this guy was alone? I want to ask you: Where did he get the funding from? Where was he getting the money from?

Right. Was he really a Lone Wolf or did he have a network of helpers, either state or non-state actors? Is his own tale of a Bitcoin ponzi windfall the truth and the whole truth about how he financed his years of carefree globetrotting?

They're two perfectly reasonable and in fact very important questions. That's why no salaried hack will ever ask them. They'll just jump on anyone who tries. QED.

[JackRiddler]

Great stuff Jack. Do you feel the article expresses your view well?

The article reports about an incident, either correctly or not, and also about how others reacted to that incident. It was not written with the intent of expressing my views. (Do the statements attributed to the imam express your views?)

I feel that my views are expressed in my writing, which you ignore, apparently preferring simpleminded, hostile misrepresentations.

Should you choose to engage honestly, I'll repeat my last post at the end here. So you have another chance to read it. Then you can figure out what my views are, since these are so important to you.

Final Hint: My views are the ones that I write.

Then I will repeat Joe's post, which is even more informative.

Although quite interestingly, he's trying not to conflate Zionism and Judaism while most media are doing their best to confuse any understanding. You can take that as a statement of fact rather than as tacit approval.

Completely irrelevant. Either there is a reason specifically to think "Mossad" should be the automatic first thought about "where the money came from." Or there isn't.

For example, I'm doing my best not to conflate support for fascism, which I'm pretty sure you lack, with your apparent inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the constant violence and genocidal philosophy of the many fascist milieux as a sufficient default explanation for why a fascist from Grafton went into a mosque and shot a video of himself murdering forty-two unarmed people in a surprise attack, before the signal was lost on the getaway drive in the direction of a second target where eight others were murdered.

Talking of "feel-o-matics", note how many people know, just know, that Mossad had nothing to do with it

So fucked up. I have no reason to "just know" this, any more than I would have reason to rule out the CIA, the ISI, or any one of a dozen or a hundred other potential suspect organizations with a history of engaging in mass violence.

I DO HAVE REASON TO SEE FASCISTS, WHICH YOU SEEM INCAPABLE OF ACKNOWLEDGING.

If there are questions about where the fascist who murders forty-two people on video and livestreams it for your edification got his guns, money, or training, there is as yet no reason to prefer any of the many possible sources outside the fascist milieux. The fascist milieux is a source of guns, money, and training.

THE FASCIST MILIEUX EXISTS.

Apparently, so do people who want to trivialize it as incapable of bringing forth a mass murder that only requires an asshole, some commercially available guns, and a video helmet.

(Oh, those mysterious thousands of dollars that must have been required for this mass shooting -- possibly tens of thousands! Where could that much money have ever come from?!!! There is really only one explanation.).

I think all of this fascist's actual connections should be investigated. But you don't give a crap about actual connections, since you've already seen them with your magic bullshit wand before this incident even occurred.

Does that mean you conflate anti-Mossad (it's not even anti-Zionism, come to think of it) with anti-Semitism? I don't think so. I also don't care, frankly. It does mean you prefer an incredibly simple-minded, reflexive, automatic explanation for this that you have no reason to apply, even though THE FASCIST IS IN YOUR FACE SHOOTING THESE PEOPLE EXACTLY THE WAY FASCISTS DO AND HAVE DONE AND TELL YOU THEY WANT TO DO AGAIN.

.

(to Harvey's last post including the anti-Zionist Jews)

Sure, sure. And you've got to be kidding me.

Point is, the imam (in my previous post) already drew his target, despite the total lack of anything other than extremely broad contextual-historical precedents ("something like what I am imagining has happened before, in some places, at some times"). Such associations can be applied as though they were evidence to direct suspicions with equal validity toward literally a dozen other 100% theoretical perpetrators. Only thing missing here is an actual connection to point to, as well as a specific motive for the theoretical actor to do this, one that in any way is even 10% as plausible as the motive would be for a fascist who believes in exterminating the invaders. Why should we not arbitrarily say, this could be the CIA, or ISI, or ISIS/al-Qaeda (who regularly murder Muslims for assimilating), or Westboro Church members, or drug cartels -- and don't tell me you can't construct some kind of motive why it might be drug cartels, say in some plausible alternate reality in which the attack disguises the murder of some accountant who knew where billions were laundered. (Stuff like this has happened! Passenger planes have been brought down for less.) Any gap in evidence allows unlimited construction, and any case will always include evidentiary blank areas. What did the shooter have for breakfast? Who was in the room next door? Don't know? Well then you can decide who it might have been! Can anyone disprove it?

I can understand why the imam might have a grudge against Israel, certainly, but his "you-know-what-I-had-a-feeling" is not any kind of basis for this preprogrammed response, and of course, what do you know, it just happens to reflect that grudge.

On the other hand, I think it is okay, assuming the minimum conditions stated in the rest of this sentence are met, to have a reflexive belief that Australian white power fascists from Grafton with money are capable of committing the terrorist attack in Christchurch, which was accompanied by a manifesto encouraging an exterminationist solution to Muslim "invaders" in concordance with the feelings of Australian white power fascists from Grafton, and has been attributed to an Australian fascist from Grafton who appears to be the guy in the self-made helmet video of the first attack, in which the filmer murders forty-two people.

Given that, I think it is okay to put "fascist terrorism" at the top of your list of ideologies/motives of interest, and maybe also in the first 99 rankings after that. I don't think it's "divisive." And until something concrete really tears apart that all-too compelling story of fascist terrorism as recorded on video, I cannot make which interests I can imagine this attack may incidentally serve be the measure of truth.

Let's repost a local expert's testimony - thanks Joe!

I'm surprised that you lot are surprised that someone from Grafton would think that way and act on it if he had the opportunity.

His views are mainstream around here (Grafton is a bit over 100km down the road). Similar views get published in mainstream media regularly. Australian politicians with national profiles speak at anti-Islamic events. Plenty of otherwise decent white people round here think we are actually at war with Muslims and that Sharia Law currently happens in Australia. Seriously. And for the last 18 years that narrative has been pushed on people repeatedly [by] Murdoch's media - he owns 3/4 of the media in Australia and his employees turn up on other media channels regularly because there aren't enough other journalists left in the country.

This century between my house and Grafton arseholes have been burning crosses on hillsides. They arrange rape parties for white school girls who socialise with aboriginal people. They talk about wiping out everyone in the middle east and most of Asia, with the side benefit this has if global warming is real (less co2 in the atmosphere.)

I don't know that prick but I've met so many people round here over the years who could have been him that its hardly surprising. Most of them can access guns and most of them have been shooting (on farms and in the bush) since they were kids.

Since the attack members of his family have been in local and national media acting all surprised and shocked about whats happened and his surviving immediate family are in hiding/protective custody. Probably oblivious to the casual racism they engage in regularly. I could tell you where his mum taught (and lived) or name people he played footy (the shit sort - rugby league) with. But I'm not gonna.

You want a conspiracy look at the aristocratic wannabes who fund the propaganda that inspires this shit and look at the other ideas they constantly push.

[Harvey]

Nobody has argued Israel is involved. Everybody seems to agree there's a white supremacist at the heart of this. Some of us have pointed to some additional context. Okay. What's the problem?

[alloneword]

Yes, 'context'...

In the wake of the New Zealand mosque attacks, links have emerged between the shooter and a Ukrainian ultra-nationalist, white supremacist paramilitary organisation called the Azov Battalion. The shooter’s manifesto alleges that he visited the country during his many travels abroad, and the flak jacket he wore during the assault featured a symbol commonly used by the Azov Battalion.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolit ... st-network

According to a recent FBI indictment, several American white supremacists were allegedly radicalized by and received training from Ukraine’s neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, which receives funding from the current government of Ukraine as well as the U.S. government. The group has also received weapons from the Israeli government.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-neo-n ... ts/251687/

..one of the most scandalous reports now shows that another key U.S. ally, Israel, is in fact arming some of these neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine who have carried out attacks on ethnic or religious minority groups, including the Roma, and also Jews inside Ukraine...

...he also quotes a letter from the Israeli Defense Ministry that it wrote in response to a lawyer who had requested an end to Israeli military aid to Ukraine, citing the reports of Nazis attacking Ukrainian Jews, and also Roma in Ukraine.

https://therealnews.com/stories/israel- ... -battalion

[Karmamatterz]

Everybody seems to agree there's a white supremacist at the heart of this.

Actually after reading the "manifesto" the nut job appeared to be more of a white nationalist. He wrote (if he wrote it) that he was fine with all the various nationalities and races....just as long as they stay within their own borders and didn't pollute his f*ked "dream" of keeping peoples separated. Along with that and what hasn't got much traction in the media, is that he actually is lined up ideologically with a lot of environmental movements as he discussed how modern society has trashed the Earth and that conspicuous consumption is evil.

[DrEvil]

Everybody seems to agree there's a white supremacist at the heart of this.

Actually after reading the "manifesto" the nut job appeared to be more of a white nationalist. He wrote (if he wrote it) that he was fine with all the various nationalities and races....just as long as they stay within their own borders and didn't pollute his f*ked "dream" of keeping peoples separated. Along with that and what hasn't got much traction in the media, is that he actually is lined up ideologically with a lot of environmental movements as he discussed how modern society has trashed the Earth and that conspicuous consumption is evil.

"White nationalist" is a term coined by white supremacists to make themselves sound more palatable, just like "alt-right". The supremacy bit is implied. He doesn't want those people where he lives because he thinks a society of his own people is better than a society with all those others mixed in. It's just a re-branding exercise.

And honestly - who cares if he's an environmentalist? The mass murdering part takes precedence. It's like complaining that no one talks about Hitler being ideologically aligned with vegetarians.

[Harvey]

Yes, context: https://electronicintifada.net/content/ ... aine/24876

[Grizzly]

Max Blumenthal speaks truth, better see it before ALL truth is censored. Max Blumenthal, isn't surprised and neither am I. But, I was surprised Canada, is playing in the murder/death/mercenary games. I assumed, their government was more dignified than the USG. Guess since RI is hosted in Canuckland, this puts this board and it's users on the list of Cyclops and it's vassals, AKA, Five-eyes. [blink]War profiteering is profitable[/blink].

[alloneword]

I was wondering how widespread 'pro-zionist fascism' had become - my (thankfully limited) personal experience of people espousing far-right views is that it usually doesn't take them long to start spewing forth about 'The Jews' etc., so I was initially surprised by the lack of this in Tarrantino's 73 pager.

A recent piece on MintPress had this to say:

The combination of far right nationalism and support for Israel may seem like an unlikely combination, but it is an ideology shared by most of the Islamophobic and anti-immigrant political parties throughout Europe that have performed impressively well in European Parliament elections. These include Hungary’s Fidesz, the Italian League and Five Star Movement, the Flemish Flaams Belang, Poland’s Law and Justice, Belgian People’s Party, the Progress Party of Norway (of which Breivik was a member), True Finns Party, France’s National Rally, Alternative for Deutschland, and many others.

It is likely that Tarrant, like Breivik, is not anti-semitic and actually views Jews as ‘allies’ in a civilizational crusade against Islam. Just as Israel has helped orchestrate the US wars in the Middle East against its enemies that has contributed to the mass influx of refugees seeking asylum in the West, it has fostered the Islamophobic backlash to it by supporting the growing far right movement that is ascendant.

A Haaretz piece last month on the subject of Azov:

even if the most extreme figures on the far right have shied away from overt anti-Semitic rhetoric and acts of anti-Semitic violence, Dolinsky notes, it is only because the far right has chosen to focus on perceived “pro-Russian” enemies, like leftists and more vulnerable minorities. Ukraine’s Jews are still on the far right’s list of enemies, says Dolinsky.

“Jews don’t play that important a role; we are not a resource for elections,” says Dolinsky. “But nationalists are. The government knows what they’re doing.”

(And then there's Igor Kolomoisky... but maybe that's for another thread).

Has anyone [Jack? anyone?] come across any decent reading on the origins and history of 'pro-zionist fascism' that you can point me to?

[Harvey]

Armed police patrols are a dangerous response to a non-existent problem

https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/22-10-201 ... t-problem/

On Friday it was announced that Armed Offenders Squad patrols will be trialled in Counties Manukau, Waikato and Canterbury over the next six months. The data suggests this will increase police violence and unfairly target Māori, writes Emilie Rākete.

Police Commissioner Mike Bush announced on Friday that cars of Armed Offender Squad officers armed with assault rifles will patrol New Zealand’s streets. As a community organiser active in criminal justice spheres, this policy concerned me. More than that, it confused me. Despite Bush’s claims that this six-month trial is a response to the evolving context of law enforcement, it appears to fly in the face of evidence.

Mike Bush argues that roaming units of heavily-armed commandos are required to respond to the increased danger that police officers and New Zealanders face on a day-to-day basis. Yet data on firearm crimes, released to me under the Official Information Act, tell a different story. Firearms were involved in less than 1% of alleged assaults on police officers. The rate at which firearms are used against police has been declining since 2015, when records began. There is no evidence to support the claim that police are less safe now than they were four years ago. Nor does the data support the idea that firearm violence is worsening. Firearms are used in less than 1% of all crimes, a rate which has barely changed since 2013. Despite the increased intensity of media coverage, we have no reason to believe firearm crimes are becoming an everyday danger. Nothing suggests firearm crimes are a problem only roaming patrols of armed police can stop.

The exception to these trends, obviously, was the white supremacist terrorist attack in Christchurch. Indeed, Mike Bush explicitly links the random deployment of the Armed Offender Squads to the attack, frequently mentioning March 15 in media statements. Social theorist Naomi Klein calls this the shock doctrine – the tendency for governments to push through unpopular or controversial policies under the pretext of an emergency.

Counter-terror expert trains Kiwi professionals

https://israelinstitute.nz/2018/09/coun ... essionals/

Israel has had to deal with terror attacks for many years and Dr Itay Gil‘s solemn message for New Zealand is “it’s coming to you”. This was the same message he gave to a group of leaders in Sydney in 1995 when some of those listening to him thought that Australia was immune and could learn little from the tiny Jewish nation.

More than two decades later, Australian emergency services are turning to Israel for training and the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service has identified “violent extremism” as the number one threat to New Zealand.

Dr Gil was an IDF captain and served in the special forces paratrooper brigade, after which he was chosen to join Israel’s elite counter-terror and hostage rescue team (Yamam). He became the chief close-quarters combat instructor for the unit and executive director for all training programs for the Israel border and undercover Police units. His company, Protect, now consults to civilians and government agencies across the world.

Dr Gil was recently in New Zealand offering training and workshops. He trained representatives of the NZ Police and defence forces as well as security professionals and has suggested that the NZDF are seriously considering updating their training program to incorporate Israeli methods that have been refined with experience.