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Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:06 pm
by DrEvil
Karmamatterz » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:24 pm wrote:Isn't this a current event?

In all seriousness, why the tears? Doesn't this represent the evil patriarchy? Shouldn't this be in the Garden of Dicks thread?

Then there is the whole Christian bashing that is ever present on RI. Come on folks, you should be celebrating the destruction of this church built and and sustained by old white men. The irony is just amazing.

It's possible to rail against the institutions of religion and still appreciate a beautiful building. I'm as godless as they come and want all religion consigned to history books, but I was still awed when I walked into the Notre Dame.

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:12 pm
by seemslikeadream
I believe the beautiful South Rose window is gone .....just found out it has been spared along with other windows and art

The South Rose or Rose du Midi was a gift from Louis IX. The structure of the facade has been broken at least twice. The whole facade was not built well and so was shored up since 1543.

Notre Dame survived war and revolution


Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:16 pm
by stickdog99
Antipope arson?


Pope vs. Pope

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:19 pm
by seemslikeadream
600 years before there was the United States


Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 3.22.33 PM.jpg


An impressive light show is being projected onto the famous façade of the Notre-Dame de Paris cathedral, in memory of World War One, and the building’s long history in France.
Until November 11, the front of the famous cathedral will play host to a series of 17 light projections, designed by artistic director Bruno Seillier and named “The Invalid Night” (La Nuit Aux Invalides, or “injured veterans”), as part of what is being called the "Dame de Coeur" show. ... light-show



Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:50 pm
by Laodicean

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:04 pm
by seemslikeadream
now you made me weepy :cry:

The ceiling of Notre Dame contained 13,000 oak trees cut in the 12th century.

Officials on scene say the next hour and a half will be crucial to efforts to save what remains of Notre Dame.

“There’s a risk that the great bell falls. If the bell falls, it’s the tower that collapses. There are firefighters inside and outside.”

Here is the cathedral as it appeared in 1840.


Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:26 pm
by alloneword
Macron was supposed to give some big wanky speech tonight, paying lip service to the demands of our yellow-vested comrades (whilst continuing to serve the corporate kleptocracy and neo-liberal elites, natch) - the great statesman saves the nation, etc... apparently it was pre-recorded and all ready to go, but he's decided to save it for another day.

I'm surprised he hasn't blamed the fire on protesters... I mean, if the workers on the site were adhering to EU H&S legislation, they would have been wearing a hi-vis.

A (Parisian) friend quipped earlier: "Perhaps today they can use their fucking water-cannon for something useful for a change".

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning to the ground

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:38 pm
by seemslikeadream
Main structure of Notre Dame is intact

French official says the stone structure of Notre-Dame has been saved from "total destruction"

French businessman (and husband of Salma Hayek) gives 100 million Euros to the rebuilding work

Notre-Dame de Paris bells 850th Anniversary

Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque Fire Burns at the Same Time As Flames Engulf Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris
By Tom O'Connor On 4/15/19 at 4:58 PM EDT
A fire broke out at the revered Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem just as flames ravaged the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.

Footage showing smoke and fire emerging from the roof of a structure known as the Marwani Prayer Room, or Solomon's Stables, could be seen on social media. The Palestine News Agency, the official outlet of the Palestinian National Authority, cited a guard as saying Monday that "the fire broke out in the guard's room outside the roof of the Marwani Prayer Room, and the fire brigade of the Islamic Waqf handled the matter successfully."

News of the incident at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest site in Islam and central to the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict, was largely overshadowed by a much larger blaze engulfing the Notre Dame Cathedral at the same time.

The Palestine News Agency reported that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' office "expressed its deep regret Monday over the fire that broke out at the historic Notre Dame Cathedral in the center of the French capital of Paris, which caused the collapse of the cathedral tower."

"The Presidency confirmed its solidarity and sympathy with our friends in France over this incident," the outlet added.

The Marwani Prayer Room is located underneath the southeastern corner of the Temple Mount, known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, which contains both the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. Sheikh Azzam al-Khatib, director general of the Jerusalem Waqf and Al-Aqsa Mosque Affairs Department, told Jordan's Al-Mamlaka TV that the fire broke out in the courtyard and preliminary information suggested that it may have been caused by children tampering in the area.

GettyImages-454677194 Palestinian Muslims hold Friday prayers in the Marwani Prayer Room, also called Solomon's Stables, located under the southeastern corner of the raised platform which holds the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem's Old City, September 5, 2014. A fire broke out at the sacred site just as a much larger blaze engulfed the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/Getty Images

The compound as a whole is located in Old City section of East Jerusalem, initially occupied by Jordan during the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict that followed the establishment of Israel, but later seized by Israel during a second war in 1967. Israel annexed the entirety of the city in 1980 in a move not recognized by much of the international community, though Jordan's monarchy was granted custodial rights over the Islamic holy sites.

In a controversial move, President Donald Trump recognized the entirety of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in December 2017, dismissing competing Palestinian claims to the city and upsetting a broad international consensus.

No official explanations have yet been provided for either of Monday's fires, though French media has suggested that the fire at the Notre Dame Cathedral may have been related to ongoing renovation efforts. ... eekTwitter

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:49 am
by seemslikeadream
Salma Hayek's Husband François-Henri Pinault Pledges $113 Million to Rebuild Notre Dame Cathedral

Salma Hayek‘s husband François-Henri Pinault has pledged €100 million (over US$113 million) to help rebuild the fallen Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.

In a statement obtained by French newspaper Le Figaro, Pinault, 56, said, “My father (François Pinault) and myself have decided to unblock a sum of 100 million euros from our Artemis funds (the family holding company) to participate in the effort that will be necessary for the complete reconstruction of Notre-Dame.”

Pinault’s donation is the first major one announced. Through Kering, an international luxury group, his family owns and controls a number of businesses including Gucci, Alexander McQueen, Stella McCartney, Saint Laurent and Balenciaga.

The elder Pinault, who is 82, is worth an estimated $37.3 billion, according to Bloomberg’s “Billionaires Index“.

Hayek, 52, shared an image of the burning cathedral on Instagram, writing in the caption, “As many others I’m in deep shock and sadness to witness the beauty of Notre-Dame turn into smoke. I love you Paris. Comme beaucoup d’autres, c’est avec effroi et tristesse que je regarde la beauté de Norte-Dame partir en fumée… Paris, je t’aime ! #notredame #paris.”

The Oscar-nominated actress and the businessman have a residence near the cathedral and were married in Paris on February 14, 2009, at the City Hall of the Sixth Arrondissement, which is less than a mile away from the historic church.

The Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris | FRANCOIS GUILLOT/AFP/Getty
Pinault’s pledge follows French President Emmanuel Macron’s speech on Monday night in which he said the cathedral would be rebuilt.

A public fundraising drive has been announced and will open Tuesday morning in France.

RELATED: Paris’s Notre Dame Cathedral ‘Saved and Preserved’ After Massive Fire, Says Official

“The worst has been avoided, but the battle isn’t fully won yet,” Macron, 41, told crowds outside the church.

He continued, “It is with pride I tell you tonight we will rebuild this cathedral . . . we will rebuild Notre Dame because it is what the French expect of us, it is what our history deserves, it is, in the deepest sense, our destiny.”

RELATED VIDEO: Fire Breaks Out At Paris’s Notre Dame Cathedral

The blaze erupted around 6:30 p.m. Monday local time and appears to have completely consumed the landmark’s roof. The building’s towering spire fell and portions of the roof have collapsed, according to France 24. ... soc_trk=tw


"Great nations write their autobiographis in three manuscripts, the book of their deeds the book of their words and the book of their art. Not one of these books can be understood unless we read the two others, but of the three the only trustworthy one is the last"

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A personal view


Ruskin said: "Great nations write their autobiographis in three manuscripts, the book of their deeds the book of their words and the book of their art. Not one of these books can be understood unless we read the two others, but of the three the only trustworthy one is the last" If I must choose a speech of the the housing minister or the buildings he put up I'll believe the latter.
But great works of art happen in barbarous society, very vital. Compare a negro mask with appolo the Belvedere (for four humdred years the most admired peice in the world, Napoleons greatest boast to have looted it from the vatican, but now forgotten) But the mask is in a world of fear and darkness, ready to inflict punishment for the smallest infringement of tabboo.. The hellenistic world is of light and confidence, beyond the day to day struggle to survive.
For hundreds of years the greek temples were al over Europe.
Why did Rome fall? hundreds of years of no change breeds exhaustion and boredom. They succumbed to the same weaknesses as the people they conquored.
After the collapse of Rome it was sealed of from its roots by islam surrounding it. If a new civilization was to be born it would have to face the Atlantic. For one hundred years after 550ad group of monks huddled off the coast of ireland. They did art in gold with few human references and copied gospal books
There they encountered vikings who were the last people to convert had a great epic mythology bent and gave us the spirit of columbus. If one wants a symbol of Atlantic man that distinguishes him from Mediterranean man, a symbol to set against the Greek temple, it is the viking ship.
Civilization means something more than energy and wil and creative power, it needs a sense of permanense. Vikings didn't build homes in stone or write books.
Civilized man must feel that he bolongs somewhere in space and time; that he consciously looks forward and looks back. Being able to read and write helps this a lot.
For over 500 years this achievemnet was rare in western europe. It is a shock to realise that during all this time practically no lay person, from kings and emperors down could read or write. Charlemagne learnt to read, but never could write. In so far as we are the heirs of Greece and rome we got through by the skin of our teeth.
But the monestaries couldn't have become the guardians of civilisation unless there had been a minimum of stability; and this, in Western Europe was first achieved in the KIngdom of the Franks. All great civilisations, in their early stages, are base on fighting. Clovis and his successors not only conquered their enemies , but maintained themselves by cruelties and torutures remarkable even by the standards of the last 50 years.

One sometimes feels that the seventh and eigth centures were like a prolonged "western, but it was made more horrible because unredeemed by any trace of sentiment or chivalry.
How did charlemagne do it? With the help of an outstanding teacher and lbrarian named Alcuin of York who collected books and had them copied. People don't always realise that only three or four antique manuscripts of the Latin authors are still in existence. our whole knowledge of ancient literature is due to the collecting and copying that began under Charlemagne and almost any classical text that survived until the 8th has survived till today.
He remade touch with the Byzantine, that had avoided the western barbarians cause it had eastern ones to deal with. A little of its art had filtered through and provided a model for the first figures that appear in eight century manuscripts. Charlemagne's crowning in 800 was said by him to be a mistake. It produced battles for 300 years but the tension between the spiritual and worldly powers throughout the middle ages was preisely what kept Eropean civ alive. if either had achieved absolute power, society might have grown as static as the civilisations of Egypt and Byzantine. Charlemagne even received an elephant from Houn al Raschid of the thousand and one nights. It died on a campaign in saxony.
From his empire breaking there emerged something like the europe we know, france to the west germany to the east. By the 10th the German part was in the ascendant under the three ottos.
Historians usually consider the tenth century almost as dark and barbarous as the seventh. That is because they look at it from the point of view of political history and the written word. Not for the last time in studying civilisation one learns how hard it is to equate art and society. The amount of art is astonishing.
The princely patrons like Lothear and Charles the Bald commissioned quantities of manuscripts, with jewelled book covers. In these splendiferous objects the appetite for gold and wrought gem-work is no longer the symbol of a warrioirs courage and ferocity, but is used for the glory of god.
We have grown so used to the idea that the cricifixion is the supreme symbol of christianity, that it is a shock to realise how late in the history of christian art its power was recognized. The simple fact is that the early church needed converts and from this point of view the cricifixion was not an encouraging subject. So early christian art is concerned with miracles healings and with hopeful things. It was the 10th century, that despised and rejected epoch of European history, that made the crucifixion into a moving symbol of the cristian faith.
If you had asked the average man of the time to what country he belonged. he would not have understood you. He would have know only to what bishopric. And the church was not only an organiser it was a humaniser. Man is nolonger the abstract thing on the irish isles, but a human being with humanity's impulses and fears.

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:20 am
by RocketMan
This came up on the creepiness that is Facebook:

If you're American and/or not deeply versed in Pagan history, you're probably hearing lots of people mention that Notre Dame was a Pagan temple before and are maybe wondering about this, whether it's true, and why it was like that.

Since it's one of my favorite historical subjects, I'll explain what I know.

Most churches in Europe older than 600 years were built on former Pagan sites. This was actually official church "policy." Popes (especially Gregory "the great") specifically ordered that new churches be built on old Pagan sites. In some cases, wood and stone from the old sites (temples, groves, etc) would be used partially in the church.

The idea was that it would be easier to convert people to the new religion if it seemed like the new places were merely continuations of the old.

They didn't come up with idea, though. It's what the Roman Empire did, too. They often re-carved old statues and standing stones with new images to fit their imperial religion, also changing the names of local gods to make them Roman. This is a lot like what the Catholic Church did with saints, many of whom had Pagan roots or were pagan gods.

So most of the oldest churches in Europe actually have two (or more) layers of Pagan sites below them: one Roman pagan on top of an "indigenous" (or pre-Roman) one.

The best know example of this is in Paris: Notre Dame, which was a temple to Jupiter during Roman conquest and a smaller shrine (suspected of being a goddess shrine) before the Romans conquered and built their own temple.

Incidentally, there's another church with two much older Pagan sites below it, except it was only consecrated one hundred years ago (1919). That church is the basilica of the sacred heart (Sacré Couer) on Montmartre, and is dedicated to "expiate the sins" of the Paris Commune.

The hill it's on, Montmartre (the red-light district where the Moulin Rouge is), was once a Roman site dedicated to Dionysos and Mars, and before that it was a Druid mount.

So even though the last official Pagan worship on the place ended more than a thousand years ago, people are *still* building Churches on Pagan sites.
From a Pagan perspective, this makes complete sense (even if we'd rather see the old temples and groves back). Because places don't stop being sacred just because the buildings on them are destroyed. It isn't the humans who make it holy, it's the spirits of the place and the land itself.

Sacred sites are places you can communicate with gods easiest, "wells of power" or "crossroads" or "places where the veil is thin" or however else you want to describe it.

So whatever the dominant religion, even if it's a "secular" one, it makes sense for the religious buildings to be in those places and not elsewhere. And even if the people choosing the site aren't aware of the theory behind it (but the Catholic Church is a lot more magically-adept than most people give them credit for), they unconsciously sense this truth.

So anyway, Notre Dame is burning. But the place was sacred before, and the building isn't what made it sacred. So mourn the loss of art and the destruction of a symbol, but don't mourn the loss of the sacred: it's not going anywhere.

Did not know that Sacre Coeur was "dedicated to "expiate the sins" of the Paris Commune". Bastards.

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:52 am
by seemslikeadream
St. Bridget is the most well-known female leader of the early Celtic Christian Church

my great grandmother was named after St. Bridget. As I said she help build 2 churches. I am very familiar. My Catholicism goes back 250 years pre-Christian goes back 6,000. I understand both

and I didn't get the knowledge from FB

St. Bridget’s Cross - A Christian symbol possibly deriving from the pagan sunwheel

see my avatar? A Brigid's Cross...I changed it when my brother in law died a few weeks ago
my family is still in mourning

St. Bridget and her cross are linked together by a story about her weaving this form of cross at the death-bed of either her father or a pagan lord, who upon hearing what the cross meant, asked to be baptized. One version goes as follows:

A pagan chieftain from the neighbourhood of Kildare was dying. Christians in his household sent for Bridget to talk to him about Christ. When she arrived, the chieftain was raving. As it was impossible to instruct this delirious man, hopes for his conversion seemed doubtful. Bridget sat down at his bedside and began consoling him. As was customary, the dirt floor was strewn with rushes both for warmth and cleanliness. Bridget stooped down and started to weave them into a cross, fastening the points together. The sick man asked what she was doing. She began to explain the cross, and as she talked, his delirium quieted and he questioned her with growing interest. Through her weaving, he converted and was baptized at the point of death. Since then, the cross of rushes has existed in Ireland.

This is the church she was married in Wexford 1856


Brigid: Survival Of A Goddess
by Winter Cymres

I am She
that is the natural
mother of all things,
mistress and governess
of all the elements,
the initial progeny of worlds,
chief of the powers divine,
Queen of all that are in the otherworld,
the principal of them
that dwell above,
manifested alone
and under one form
of all the Gods and Goddesses.
- Lucius Apuleius

Perhaps one of the most complex and contradictory Goddesses of the Celtic pantheon, Brigid can be seen as the most powerful religious figure in all of Irish history. Many layers of separate traditions have intertwined, making Her story and impact complicated but allowing Her to move so effortlessly down through the centuries. She has succeeded in travelling intact through generations, fulfilling different roles in divergent times.

She was, and continues to be, known by many names. Referred to as Bride, Bridey, Brighid, Brigit, Briggidda, Brigantia, I am using Her name, Brigid, here. There are also many variations on pronunciation, all of them correct, but, in my own mind, I use the pronunciation, Breet.

Brigid is the traditional patroness of healing, poetry and smithcraft, which are all practical and inspired wisdom. As a solar deity Her attributes are light, inspiration and all skills associated with fire. Although She might not be identified with the physical Sun, She is certainly the benefactress of inner healing and vital energy.

Also long known as The Mistress of the Mantle, She represents the sister or virgin aspect of the Great Goddess. The deities of the Celtic pantheon have never been abstraction or fictions but remain inseparable from daily life. The fires of inspiration, as demonstrated in poetry, and the fires of the home and the forge are seen as identical. There is no separation between the inner and the outer worlds. The tenacity with which the traditions surrounding Brigid have survived, even the saint as the thinly-disguised Goddess, clearly indicates Her importance.

As the patroness of poetry, filidhecht, the equivalent of bardic lore, are the primal retainers of culture and learning. The bansidhe and the filidh - Woman of the Fairy Hills and the class of Seer-poets, respectively, preserve the poetic function of Brigid by keeping the oral tradition alive. It is widely believed that those poets who have gone before inhabit the realms between the worlds, overlapping into ours so that the old songs and stories will be heard and repeated. Thus does Brigid fulfill the function of providing a continuity by inspiring and encouraging us.

The role of the smith in any tribe was seen as a sacred trust and was associated with magickal powers since it involved mastering the primal element of Fire, moulding the metal (from Earth) through skill, knowledge and strength. Concepts of smithcraft are connected to stories concerning the creation of the world, utilizing all of the Elements to create and fuse a new shape.

Brigid is also the Goddess of physicians and healing, divination and prophecy. One of Her most ancient names is Breo-saighead meaning fiery arrow, and within that name is the attribute of punishment and divine justice.

Three rivers are named for Her - Brigit, Braint and Brent in Ireland, Wales and England, respectively. In modern Britain today She is shown as the warrior-maiden, Brigantia, and venerated not only as justice and authority in that country, but also as the personification of Britain as is seen on the coin of the realm. There is a story, coming from the 12th century, in which Merlin is inspired by a feminine figure who represents the sovereignty of the Land of Britain. She causes his visions to reach through British history, on, so it is said, to the end of the solar system. Taliesin also describes a traditional cosmology, inspired by Brigantia. She is central to many heroic myths, especially those concerned with underworld quests and sacred kingship. This seems to relate to Her concern for the development of human potential.

Her important association with the cow, coupled with its critical necessity in Celtic culture and history, relates to the festival of Imbolc. This celebration, which is so completely Hers, involves itself with the lighting of fires, purification with well water and the ushering in of the new year (Spring) by a maiden known as the Queen of the Heavens. The significance of Imbolc is so deep that it deserves an entire section within any work relating to Brigid.

To fully grasp the significance of Imbolc it is necessary to understand the life-and-death struggle represented by winter in any agrarian society. In a world lit only by fire the snow, cold and ice of this season literally holds you in its grip, only relaxed with the arrival of spring. Although the Equinox does not arrive until later and spring is celebrated with Ostara and Beltane, Imbolc is the harbinger and the indication that better times are coming.

During the cold months, certain issues become pressing. Is there enough food for both humans and animals? Will illness decimate the tribe, especially in the case of the young, the old and nursing mothers? And what of the animals whose lives are so crucial to our own? One of the most burning questions would be with the pregnant cows and ewes since their milk is used for drink, for cheese and curds which might mean the difference between life and death.

By Imbolc these animals will have birthed their young and their milk would be flowing. Milk, to the Celts, was sacred food, equivalent to the Christian communion. It was an ideal form of food due to its purity and nourishment. Mother’s milk was especially valuable, having curative powers. The cow was symbolic of the sacredness of motherhood, the life-force sustained and nourished. This was not a passive cow giving milk but an active mother fighting for the well-being of her children.

Imbolc divides winter in half; the Crone months of winter are departing and the promise of the Spring Maiden is around the corner. This holiday eventually became modern day Candlemas with Saint Brigid’s Day and the Feast of the Purification of Mary being celebrated during this period of time. This celebration was definitely a feminine festival. Women would gather to welcome the maiden aspect of the Goddess as embodied by Brigid. Corn cakes made from the first and last of the harvest were made and distributed and this practice remains a part of Her celebration. During these festivities, She was commonly represented by a doll, dressed in white, with a crystal upon Her chest.

This doll, usually a Corn Dolly, was carried in procession by maidens also dressed in white. Gifts of food were presented to the Goddess with a special feast given by and for the maidens. Young men were invited to this feast for the purpose of ritual mating to insure that new souls would be brought in to replace those lost during the cold times.

The holiday has pastoral connections due to the association of the coming into milk of the ewes. Although Brigid is designated as an all-encompassing deity during Imbolc, She is honored in Her capacity as the Great Mother.

She possesses an unusual status as a Sun Goddess Who hangs Her Cloak upon the rays of the Sun and whose dwelling-place radiates light as if on fire. Brigid took over the Cult of the Ewes formerly held by the Goddess Lassar, who also is a Sun Goddess and who made the transition, in the Isles, from Goddess to saint. In this way Brigid,s connection to Imbolc is completed, as the worship of Lassar diminished, only to be revived later in Christian sainthood.

Brigid long transcended territorial considerations, providing some unity between the warring tribes in Western Europe and the Isles. Her three sons gave their names to the soldiers of Gaul. The cult of Brigid exists not only in Ireland but throughout Europe as well; She has an ancient and international ancestry, Her name meaning, high or exalted. As Mother Goddess, Brigid united the Celts who were spread throughout this area. She was the one feature upon which they all agreed, no matter how disparate they were in location or traditions.

In addition to Her totemic animals of the cow and the ewe, She is also associated with the cockerel, the herald of the new day and the snake, symbol of regeneration. In this way She is related to fertility Goddesses, many of Whom were also shown holding snakes and shares with Minerva the shield, spear and crown of serpents. Serpents are also a common theme in Celtic jewellery (another product of smithing) with many torcs displaying this sinuous symbol of power and divinity.

Her stories retain remnants of other Goddesses from the ancient worlds and the worship at Her later convent at Kildare was said to resemble that of Minerva. Some of Her symbols are identical to the Egyptian Goddess, Isis. Her embroidery tools, which are also Minerva‚s symbols, were preserved at the chapel at Glastonbury, along with Her bag and Her bell, symbolic of healing. Her colours - white, black and red - are those of Kali and show an ancient connection there.
She began as a triplicity of sisters, not unusual to Celtic lore. She is the Daughter of Dagda and the Morrighan and sister to Ogma, a Sun God and the Creator of the Ogham. With Bres of the Fomorians, She had three sons - Brian (Ruadan), Iuchar and Uar - and Brian's actions in The Battle of Moytura figure largely in Her evolution to a Goddess of Peace and Unity.

To understand the significance of this battle it is necessary to know a little bit about Celtic tradition concerning family. Matrilineal, it meant that ancestry was traced through the mother's line rather than the father's; the most important male in your life would be the oldest male kin to your mother, often an uncle and not necessarily a grandfather since his lineage to her may not exist. All blood relationships of any importance came through your mother’s line. This tie was so tight that children of sisters were considered to be siblings rather than cousins.

Motherhood demanded the utmost reverence. Rape was a crime of highest severity, subject to the greatest punishments and not pardonable or subject to leniency (Later, in Her evolved role as the Lawgiver, Brigid would make certain that women’s rights were retained in some form within the new religion).

The marriage of Brigid to Bres was essentially an alliance to bring peace between two warring factions. She was of the Danu and he of the Fomorians. With the intermarriage, war was hopefully averted. Ruadan, Brigid’s eldest son, used the knowledge of smithing given to him by his maternal kin, the Danu, against them by killing their smith, a sacred position within the tribe. This smith killed Ruadan before dying himself. Brigid’s grief and lamentations were said to be the first heard in Ireland and were not only an expression of mourning for the loss of Her son but also for the enmity between maternal and paternal factions of family.

This was seen as the beginning of the end for the Old Ways. And so, the Irish story of Original Sin‚ was the act against maternal kinship rather than that of sexuality since sexuality, which brings the sacred position of motherhood, was seen as positive by the Celts.

Her evolution from Goddess to saint linked Pagan Celtic and Christian traditions much the same way the Cauldron of Cerridwen and the Holy Grail were combined in Arthurian legend. She acts as a bridge between the two worlds and successfully made the transition back to Goddess again with most of Her traditions retained. The worship of Saint Brigid has persisted up until the early 20th century with Her Irish cult nearly supplanting that of Mary. She is commemorated in both Ireland and the highlands and islands of Scotland.

In order to incorporate Brigid into Christian worship, and thus insure Her survival, Her involvement in the life of Jesus became the stuff of legend. According to the stories in The Lives of the Saints, Brigid was the midwife present at the birth, placing three drops of water on His forehead. This seems to be a Christianized version of an ancient Celtic myth concerning the Sun of Light upon Whose head three drops of water were placed in order to confer wisdom.

Further, as a Christianized saint, Brigid was said to be the foster-mother of Jesus, fostering being a common practice among the Celts. She took the Child to save Him from the slaughter of male infants supposedly instigated by Herod. She wore a headdress of candles to light their way to safety.

There exists an apocryphal gospel of Thomas that was excluded from the Bible in which he claims a web was woven to protect the infant Jesus from harm. This is in keeping with Her status as the patron of domestic arts, weaving wool from Her ewes, increasing the connections as a pastoral Goddess.

Due to the original differences between the Roman church and that which was once an extremely divergent type of Christianity practiced in the Western Isles, particularly Ireland, many of the older deities made the transition from Gods and Goddesses to saints, some experiencing Church-inflicted gender changes on the way.

Often thinly-disguised pagan worship was continued in monasteries and convents which were built on or near the sites sacred to the Celtic pantheon. Many of the great monasteries - Clonmacnoise, Durrow and Brigid's own Kildare - were great centres of learning and culture, with information disseminated from these sites to Western Europe (This is much the same as the great Druidic colleges and it is not surprising to find that places sacred to the new religion were built upon the foundations of the old).

These cloisters are thought to have kept alive and preserved much of classic culture in Europe throughout the Dark Ages. During this period of time, wars were decimating the population. Mary, as the Mother in this new religion, was embraced by women who felt a similar experience of sacrificing their sons to a political and religious machine.

The Triple Goddesses were replaced by a Trinity, but the Old Ways lingered in worship. Brigid’s role as Mother Goddess was never completely eradicated and reappears throughout Her entire career as a Catholic saint. As Saint Brigid, there are rays of sunlight coming from Her head, as portrayed as a Goddess. Themes of milk, fire, Sun and serpents followed Her on this path, adding to Her ever-growing popularity. Compassion, generosity, hospitality, spinning and weaving, smithwork, healing and agriculture ran throughout Her various lives and evolution.

Her symbolism as a Sun Goddess remains, also, in the form of Brigid’s crosses, a widdershins or counter-clockwise swastika, found world-wide as a profound symbol, reaching Ireland by the second century B.C.E, and is still used there today to protect the harvest and farm animals.
One of the stories of Her life as a saint supports Her original attribute as a solar deity. During Her infancy the neighbours ran to Her house, thinking it was afire. This radiance came from the infant saint, a demonstration of Her grace bestowed as by the holy Spirit. A prayer to Saint Brigid requests,

Brigit, ever excellent woman,
golden sparkling flame,
lead us to the eternal Kingdom,
the dazzling resplendent sun.

Even in Her new incarnation as a Catholic saint Her previous existence is affirmed. The eternal flame at Her convent at Kildare suggests its existence as having been pagan and/or Druidic. The shrine at Kildare is assumed to be a Christian survival of an ancient college of vestal priestesses who were trained and then scattered throughout the land to tend sacred wells, groves, caves and hills. These priestesses were originally committed to thirty years in service but, after this period, were free to marry and leave. The first ten years were spent in training, ten in the practice of their duties and the final ten in teaching others, similar to the three degrees of initiation found in most traditions.

These women preserved old traditions, studied sciences and healing remedies and, perhaps, even the laws of state. At Kildare their duties must have involved more than merely tending the fire. This perpetual fire at the monastic city was tended by nineteen nuns over a period of nineteen days. On the twentieth day, Brigid Herself is said to keep the fire burning.

The site for the monastery at Kildare was chosen for its elevation and also for the ancient Oak found there, considered so sacred that no weapon was permitted to be placed near it, with fines collected for the gathering of deadfalls within its area. The word, Kildare, comes from ‘Cill Dara’, the Church of the Oak. The entire area was known as Civitas Brigitae, 'The City of Brigid'.

The preservation of the sacred fire became the focus of this convent. The abbess was considered to be the reincarnation of the saint and each abbess automatically took the name, Brigid, upon investiture. The convent was occupied continuously until 1132 C. E., with each abbess having a mystical connection to the saint and retaining Her name. At this point, Dermot MacMurrough wished to have a relative of his invested as the abbess. Although popular opinion was against him, his troops overran the convent and raped the reigning abbess in order to discredit her.

After this, Kildare lost much of its power and the fires were finally put out by King Henry VIII during the Reformation. During the time the convent was occupied by the saint Herself, She went from the position of Mother Goddess to that of Lawgiver, paralleling Minerva, once again. Her ability to move between categories is the secret of Her continuing success. When the laws were written down and codified by Christianity, Brigid figured largely to insure that the rights of women were remembered. These laws had been committed to memory by the brehons as a part of the extensive oral tradition.

The Old Ways were still practiced, although not often openly and, in order to make certain that people would not stray from the new religion, many aspects of the old were incorporated into the new. In keeping with the Old Ways, men were not permitted to impregnate women against their will, against medical advice or the restrictions of her tribe. A man was not permitted to neglect the sexual needs of his wife. Irish law also provided extensively for the rights of women in marriage, for pregnancy out of wedlock‚ and for divorce.

In one incident, clearly defining the position of women in this new warrior class, a woman petitioned Brigid for justice. Her lands and holdings were about to be taken from her after the death of her parents. Brigid, however, ruled that it was the woman’s decision to either take the land as a warrior, being prepared to use arms to protect her holdings and her people. If she decided not to take on this privilege‚ half her land should go to her tribe. But, if she chose to hold the land and support it militarily, she was permitted to hold the land in its entirety.

The shift from Mother Goddess to Virgin Mother to Virgin Saint presented difficulty. Even though it insured Her survival and the emergence of Her power in Neo-Paganism, the emphasis on virginity stemmed completely from the Christian patriarchy. She derived power at the expense of other women, removing motherhood from its revered position in Celtic society.

As the Mother, Brigid keeps the traditions alive and whole, offering a means of guidance that sustains through any circumstances. In Her capacity as the Lawgiver, Her attempts to carry the Old Ways through the storm to the present day, much as Merlin's work would extend to the limits of the solar system, have been successful. Paganism still exists and in a form that may well weather the storms present at this moment.

However, seeing Brigid as the unbroken vessel, Her virginity being wholly symbolic, Her loyalty is not compromised by allegiance to one lover or husband. Beyond the grip of any one tribe or nation, She can mediate to ensure unity for the good of all. She protects us as we walk through the labyrinth but also makes us face the reality of ourselves. Her Fire is the spark alive in every one of us.\

How is St. Brigid connected with the great Celtic goddess?
Susan Byron @IrishCentral Jan 31, 2019

St Brigid's Day: A celebration that has its roots a long way back in pre-Christian times, some 6,000 years ago with parallels to Egyptian and Indian mythology.

St. Brigid's feast day is also known as Imbolc, a celebration for the ancient Celtic goddess Brigid.

Spring in Ireland traditionally starts on St Brigid's Day, February 1. However, this may not be entirely historically accurate as it is a celebration with roots a long way back in pre-Christian times, some 6,000 years ago, when no written tradition existed.

As was the case in many ancient cultures around the world, female deities ruled supreme, making the similarities between Egyptian mythology and Irish mythology quite remarkable. For example, most people will be familiar with an Egyptian ritual from "The Book of the Dead," of Isis breathing life into the mummified corpse, but many may not know that the same scene is depicted in stone at the foot of a high cross in Ireland.

Brigid, the highly revered Celtic goddess, beloved by poets

Similarly, our Goddess had a sacred cow that suckled a king, the same as Queen Hatshepsut in Egypt. India and many other cultures revere the cow as a symbol of nurturing. In fact, up until the 12th-century children were baptized with milk in Ireland.

Fascinating or obvious, these ancient races relied on the land, so it is no wonder they revered the female goddesses that embodied and symbolized mother earth for them. The goddess had to be appeased and celebrated to ensure the fertility of the land, animals, and people.
A Brigid's Cross
Celtic mythology holds that the chieftains slept with the goddesses in a mating ritual that crossed the boundaries of physical and metaphysical, as these goddesses could shape-shift into birds and other mythical creatures. She could be "an old hag" in human form standing at a crossroads, or the triple goddesses "Moriggan" in the tale of the Tain, or the "Banshee" in later years foretelling death in a family.

When the Celtic goddess Brigid became a Christian Saint by the same name

Having infused tradition in Ireland with a mixture of reverence and fear, for thousands of years prior to Christianity creeping into Ireland, it is highly understandable that our ancestors would have been a tad reluctant to banish her completely, which coincidentally is about the time she seems to have morphed into the Christian St. Brigid we know about today. Although the signs were there from the start that this was no ordinary mortal woman.

It is said that the Irish never let the truth get in the way of a good story. And so the story goes, that when St. Brigid was trying to wrestle enough land from the high king of Leinster to build her monastery in Kildare, he said that she could have as much land as her cloak would cover. Whereupon Brigid laid down her cloak and it magically spread out to cover several hundred acres. ... nt-ireland

Notre-Dame: Fate of gothic masterpiece's priceless treasures
Some world famous relics are associated with the towering jewel of Western architecture which has survived wars and revolutions.

By Sunita Patel-Carstairs, news reporter
Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:26, UK
Firefighters formed a human chain to save relics. Pic: @Anne_Hidalgo


Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo said several artefacts had been saved. Pic: @Anne_Hidalgo

Firefighters risked their lives to save Notre-Dame's priceless historical artefacts of religious and cultural significance from the raging inferno that engulfed the 12th century cathedral.

Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo confirmed most artworks and several of the most sacred relics had been saved from the fire which ravaged much of the building's roof and caused its iconic spire to collapse.

Police officers and other city officials raced to recover what treasures they could from the 850-year-old structure and formed what she described as a "tremendous human chain" to save the relics.

Culture minister Franck Riester posted photos on social media of people loading art onto trucks and said other treasures were being held under lock and key at city hall.

Scores of artefacts were saved from the fire by "human chain". Pic: @franckriester


Officials formed a human chain to save relics. Pics: @franckriester
Police officers help to rescue an artefact from the fire. Pic: @franckriester
People from across the world mourned the destruction of one of the most visited historic monuments in Europe.

"It's the very soul of Paris, but it's not just for French people. For all humanity, it's one of the great monuments to the best of civilisation," said Barbara Drake Boehm, senior curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art's medieval Cloisters branch in New York.

More from Notre-dame

Notre-Dame fire: Images reveal devastation caused by blaze
LIVE: €400m raised as workers to be interviewed over Notre-Dame fire
Notre-Dame: World leaders react to devastating fire
Notre-Dame: One of the world's most popular attractions
Here are some of the most famous items associated with the towering jewel of Western architecture which has survived wars and revolutions:

Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris

Cathedral spire topples during blaze
:: Crown of Thorns
Crown of Thorns
Jean-Marc Fournier, chaplain of the Paris Fire Brigade, saved the Crown of Thorns from the burning cathedral when he bravely went in with firefighters.

Purported to be a relic of the wreath of thorns placed on the head of Jesus Christ at his crucifixion, the crown was brought to Paris in 1238 by French monarch Louis IX.

The hallowed object was contained in an elaborate gold case which was stored in the cathedral's treasury and is only occasionally displayed for people to see.

Ms Hidalgo said the Crown of Thorns had been taken into safekeeping.

:: Tunic of Saint Louis

St Louis’ tunic has been saved from the fire
The garment was said to have been worn by Louis IX as he brought the Crown of Thorns to Paris.

The mayor said it had also been saved from the flames which devastated the Parisian landmark.

:: Rose Windows

Rose windows
These are among the most famous architectural features of the Gothic masterpiece - the construction of which began in 1163, during the reign of King Louis VII - and was completed in 1345.

The three stained glass rose windows, which date back to the 13th century, are treasured artworks in their own right.

They adorn the north, south and west facades of the cathedral and have been described as "irreplaceable" by experts.

There are hopes that they have escaped catastrophic damage after firefighters managed to stop the blaze from spreading.

The enormous circular window of the nave appeared to be intact.

:: Great Organ

Great Organ
Notre-Dame's master organ is one of the largest in the world and boasts nearly 8,000 pipes, some dating back to the 1730s.

Each individual pipe of the monumental instrument, the largest in France, was cleaned when the organ was fully restored six years ago.

The city's deputy mayor Emmanuel Gregoire expressed his "enormous relief" to BFTV that the organ, which was constructed by Francois Thierry, remains intact.

:: Bells
The bell of Notre Dame, Emmanuel. Pic: GadgetDude
The bells that have rung out at key moments in France's history are thought to be safe after the fire was prevented from spreading to the cathedral's two western towers where they are housed.

Ms Hidalgo tweeted: "I want to say thank you to @PompiersParis, they saved the towers. I could not imagine Paris without the towers of Notre Dame."

Emmanuel, the largest bell, weighing more than 23 tonnes, was lifted into the south tower in 1685.

The monument featured prominently in Victor Hugo's novel The Hunchback of Notre-Dame in which Quasimodo was the cathedral's bell-ringer.

The place of worship fell into neglect during the French Revolution, but the renewed attention it received following the publication of the novel in 1831 led to two decades of restoration works.

:: The Descent from the Cross
Smoke rises around the altar in front of the cross inside the Notre Dame
A marble statue still believed to be intact is Pieta, also known as The Descent from the Cross, by sculptor Nicolas Coustou.

Footage from inside the cathedral appeared to show the work still standing, in front of the crucifix, at the altar.

The image of the cross, taken by the first photographers allowed inside the smouldering ruin after the fire, has become a symbol of hope for France. ... s-11695154

as always so wonderful to talk with you RocketMan

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:48 am
by seemslikeadream
La rosace est sauvée !


Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:17 am
by RocketMan
It's really quite something, making the Notre Dame fire somehow about YOU and your family history. Other people here also lead lives and lose people and have histories, they just don't make a damn spectacle of it.

And yeah, I get all my info on Facebook, I'm just an uneducated dummy that way.

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:18 am
by seemslikeadream
thanks I really appreciate your are really a very lovely person

No sign of arson in Notre-Dame blaze as nation grieves for symbol
PARIS (Reuters) - The fire that tore through Notre-Dame cathedral was probably caused by accident, French prosecutors said on Tuesday after firefighters doused the last flames in the ruins overnight and the nation grieved for the destruction of one of its symbols.

More than 400 firemen were needed to tame the inferno that consumed the roof and collapsed the spire of the eight-centuries-old cathedral. They worked through the night to extinguish the fire some 14 hours after it began.

(Graphic: 3D diagram of Notre-Dame -

Paris public prosecutor Remy Heitz said there was no obvious indication the fire was arson. Fifty people were working on what would be a long and complex investigation. One firefighter was injured but no one else was hurt in the blaze which began after the building was closed to the public for the evening.

From the outside, the imposing bell towers and outer walls, with their vast flying buttresses, still stood firm, but the insides and the upper structure were eviscerated by the blaze.

Firefighters examined the gothic facade and could be seen walking atop the belfries as police kept the area in lockdown.

Investigators will not be able to enter the cathedral’s blackened nave until experts are satisfied its stone walls withstood the heat and the building is structurally sound.

The fire swiftly ripped through the cathedral’s timbered roof supports, where workmen had been carrying out extensive renovations to the spire’s wooden frame.

The Paris prosecutor has opened an investigation into “involuntary destruction by fire”. Police on Tuesday began questioning the workers involved in the restoration, the prosecutor’s office said.

Hundreds of stunned onlookers had lined the banks of the Seine river late into the night as the fire raged, reciting prayers and singing liturgical music in harmony as they stood in vigil.

Firefighters work at Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris, France April 16, 2019. A massive fire consumed the cathedral on Monday, gutting its roof and stunning France and the world. REUTERS/Gonzalo Fuentes
“Yesterday we thought the whole cathedral would collapse. Yet this morning she is still standing, valiant, despite everything. It is a sign of hope,” said Sister Marie Aimee, a nun who had hurried to a nearby church to pray as the fire spread.

It was at Notre-Dame that Napoleon was made emperor in 1804, Pope Pius X beatified Joan of Arc in 1909 and former presidents Charles de Gaulle and Francois Mitterrand were mourned.

Messages of condolence flooded in from around the world.

Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic Church, was praying for those affected, the Vatican said, adding: “Notre-Dame will always remain - and we have seen this in these hours - a place where believers and non-believers can come together in the most dramatic moments of French history.”

Britain’s Queen Elizabeth expressed deep sadness while her son and heir Prince Charles said he was “utterly heartbroken”.

(Graphic: Map and timeline -


President Emmanuel Macron promised to rebuild Notre-Dame, considered among the finest examples of European Gothic architecture, visited by more than 13 million people a year.

Notre-Dame is owned by the state. It has been at the center of a years-long row between the nation and the Paris archdiocese over who should finance badly needed restoration work to collapsed balustrades, crumbling gargoyles and cracked facades.

It was too early to estimate the cost of the damage, said the heritage charity Fondation du Patrimoine, but it is likely to run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

The rival billionaire owners of France’s two biggest luxury fashion empires, Francois-Henri Pinault of Kering and Bernard Arnault of LVMH, pledged 100 million euros and 200 million euros to the restoration respectively. Oil company Total pledged 100 million. The city of Paris said it would provide 50 million.

Paolo Violini, a restoration specialist for Vatican museums, said the pace at which the fire spread through the cathedral had been stunning.

“We are used to thinking about them as eternal simply because they have been there for centuries, or a thousand years, but the reality is they are very fragile,” Violini said.


The company carrying out the renovation works when the blaze broke out said it would cooperate fully with the investigation.

“All I can tell you is that at the moment the fire began none of my employees were on the site. We respected all procedures,” Julien Le Bras, a representative of family firm Le Bras Freres.

Officials breathed a sigh of relief that many relics and artworks had been saved. At one point, firefighters, policemen and municipal workers formed a human chain to remove the treasures, including a centuries-old crown of thorns made from reeds and gold, and the tunic believed to have been worn by Saint Louis, a 13th century king of France.

“Notre-Dame was our sister, it is so sad, we are all mourning,” said Parisian Olivier Lebib. “I have lived with her for 40 years. Thank God that the stone structure has withstood the fire.”

Reporting by Sudip Kar-Gupta, Inti Landauro, Richard Lough, Sarah White, Emmanuel Jarry and Luke Baker in Paris; Additional reporting by Philip Pullela; Writing by Richard Lough; Editing by Leigh Thomas, Raissa Kasolowsky and Peter Graff ... SKCN1RS0AV

Re: Paris: Notre Dame built in 1160 burning

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:27 am
by RocketMan
Yeah, you just keep driving home how you're uniquely equipped to handle these topics because of your exquisite understanding of them due to the extraordinary interestingness of your experience and life. You you you.