Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Blue » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:39 pm

I'm fully aware that vaccines aren't totally safe and have said so repeatedly. My main issue is and always has been the crazy people who think all vaccines are bad all the time, something they demonstrably are not.

Okay. I agree, some vaccines are useful.

Kennedy is far from the worst of the lot, but I'm no fan, and I don't think he's someone worth listening to for objective information on vaccines. Him associating with Andrew Wakefield and Del Bigtree should be a huge red flag, as they're both on the crazy end of the anti-vaccine spectrum. If he thinks they're okay then I don't trust his judgement.

Guilt by association. You didn't comment on his huge listing of peer-reviewed scientific papers on the health dangers caused by vaccines on his website.

The VAERS database isn't meaningless, it's just being misused by anti-vaxxers (and someone did claim the flu-shot turned them into the Hulk. Anyone can send in reports). The website itself says it's not supposed to be used the way anti-vaxxers use it (cherry-picking reports of adverse effects), it's meant as an early-warning system. If all of a sudden a ton of reports start piling in that people have X reaction after getting Y vaccine they know it's something they should look into.


You are saying that people, great numbers of people are deciding willy nilly to claim a flu shot or vaccine made them or their child sick. Early Warning System, are you fucking kidding me? Tons of reports do pile up at doctor's offices and emergency rooms. Most Americans, I'd bet 90% have never even heard of VAERS so the number of reactions are extremely underreported.

More later...
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Blue » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:59 pm

I know you're going to say the doctors would report these incidents if they happened. Right, like the same doctors who reported the excessive prescription writing of opiods? The same doctors that report medicare fraud? (How about the number of them that commit medicare fraud.) The same doctors that perform unsafe and unnecessary procedures like bypass heart surgery and gall bladder removal just for money? How many patients died in hospitals due to medical malpractice last year? Are doctors beyond reproach?

As for the payouts, it's my understanding that they usually just pay without fighting it very hard because it's cheaper than litigating every case, which skews the numbers towards lots of vaccine injuries when in reality it's just the government choosing the cheapest option, vaccine injury or not.
The reason the compensation scheme exists in the first place is people suing pharma companies for huge sums over alleged vaccine injuries, which led to several companies throwing up their arms and saying fuck it, there's better profits elsewhere. The government then stepped in and took over the compensation scheme to ensure at least some companies would continue making vaccines (if you think it's bad just wait until you get public healthcare and all medical injuries are covered by a similar mechanism).


How very odd that you would make such absurd statements. The US government fully backing the most profitable corporations in the world is worried about fighting a case against a Mom with a very sick kid after vaccinations. You know damn well they are not alleged injuries and they are many.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Cordelia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:02 pm

^^^Word perfect, Blue. Thanks for speaking for many people I'm aware of and concerned about. :thumbsup
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:08 pm

Blue » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:39 am wrote:
I'm fully aware that vaccines aren't totally safe and have said so repeatedly. My main issue is and always has been the crazy people who think all vaccines are bad all the time, something they demonstrably are not.

Okay. I agree, some vaccines are useful.

Kennedy is far from the worst of the lot, but I'm no fan, and I don't think he's someone worth listening to for objective information on vaccines. Him associating with Andrew Wakefield and Del Bigtree should be a huge red flag, as they're both on the crazy end of the anti-vaccine spectrum. If he thinks they're okay then I don't trust his judgement.

Guilt by association. You didn't comment on his huge listing of peer-reviewed scientific papers on the health dangers caused by vaccines on his website.


Hell yes, guilt by association. If you spend all your time hanging out with <people with specific beliefs> I'm going to assume that you share their beliefs, or at the very least aren't bothered by them.

The VAERS database isn't meaningless, it's just being misused by anti-vaxxers (and someone did claim the flu-shot turned them into the Hulk. Anyone can send in reports). The website itself says it's not supposed to be used the way anti-vaxxers use it (cherry-picking reports of adverse effects), it's meant as an early-warning system. If all of a sudden a ton of reports start piling in that people have X reaction after getting Y vaccine they know it's something they should look into.


You are saying that people, great numbers of people are deciding willy nilly to claim a flu shot or vaccine made them or their child sick. Early Warning System, are you fucking kidding me? Tons of reports do pile up at doctor's offices and emergency rooms. Most Americans, I'd bet 90% have never even heard of VAERS so the number of reactions are extremely underreported.

More later...


Doctors are bound by law to report adverse effects to the VAERS database, so I'm assuming most of them have some sort of procedure for doing exactly that. I'm working from the assumption that most of them aren't evil bastards out to fuck with people for no reason. Here's the specifics:

Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS:

Any adverse event listed in the VAERS Table of Reportable Events Following Vaccination that occurs within the specified time period after vaccination
An adverse event listed by the vaccine manufacturer as a contraindication to further doses of the vaccine

Healthcare providers are strongly encouraged to report:

Any adverse event that occurs after the administration of a vaccine licensed in the United States, whether or not it is clear that a vaccine caused the adverse event
Vaccine administration errors

Vaccine manufacturers are required to report to VAERS all adverse events that come to their attention.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html

Also:

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national early warning system to detect possible safety problems in U.S. licensed vaccines. VAERS is co-managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). VAERS accepts and analyzes reports of adverse events (possible side effects) following vaccination.

VAERS is not designed to detect if a vaccine caused an adverse event, but it can identify unusual or unexpected patterns of reporting that might indicate possible safety problems requiring a closer look.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html

And this is purely anecdotal, but I've heard of hardcore anti-vaxxers organizing campaigns to spam the VAERS database with fraudulent reports to make it look like vaccines are more dangerous than they are (end justifies the means etc.).
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:29 pm

Blue » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:59 am wrote:I know you're going to say the doctors would report these incidents if they happened. Right, like the same doctors who reported the excessive prescription writing of opiods? The same doctors that report medicare fraud? (How about the number of them that commit medicare fraud.) The same doctors that perform unsafe and unnecessary procedures like bypass heart surgery and gall bladder removal just for money? How many patients died in hospitals due to medical malpractice last year? Are doctors beyond reproach?


Here's the thing: I assume that most people are basically decent folks, and that includes doctors. Most of them actually want to do good. Maybe that makes me naive, but I'd rather be naive than live in a paranoid world where everyone is out to fuck with me.

I don't know how often doctors ignore their legal obligations to report adverse effects, and I'm guessing you don't either. Of course doctors aren't beyond reproach, they're people, and sometimes they fuck up, and some of them are greedy assholes, but that's a far cry from assuming all of them are somehow out to get you.

As for the payouts, it's my understanding that they usually just pay without fighting it very hard because it's cheaper than litigating every case, which skews the numbers towards lots of vaccine injuries when in reality it's just the government choosing the cheapest option, vaccine injury or not.
The reason the compensation scheme exists in the first place is people suing pharma companies for huge sums over alleged vaccine injuries, which led to several companies throwing up their arms and saying fuck it, there's better profits elsewhere. The government then stepped in and took over the compensation scheme to ensure at least some companies would continue making vaccines (if you think it's bad just wait until you get public healthcare and all medical injuries are covered by a similar mechanism).


How very odd that you would make such absurd statements. The US government fully backing the most profitable corporations in the world is worried about fighting a case against a Mom with a very sick kid after vaccinations. You know damn well they are not alleged injuries and they are many.


No, I don't know that, and neither do you. You think they're all caused by vaccines, but you don't know they are. Again, I'm working from the assumption that most of the people handling these cases are decent people, and if they can give a family with a sick child some money and save their department money by skipping the litigation and erring on the side of caution, then why not? Win-win. I know that's what I would do.

Here's data on the number of compensations with numbers for settlements, court cases, concessions and dismissals. The number of cases is tiny compared to the number of vaccines administered.
https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/file ... y-2019.pdf
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:48 am

liminalOyster » 28 Jul 2020, 10:44 wrote:

In short, I have yet to see anything anyone has posted here that includes theorising that would not fall into the glossary of terms over at the aforementioned blog.


Likely, but the rigorous engagement with challenges to said posting seems a bit wanting,


I couldn't agree more. Wait. I do agree more, insofar as I would spin that there is plenty of rigorous engagement and challenging of said posting, and the nature of it is wanting indeed. A more recent example features a discussion that includes a lot of assumptions challenged by a lot of counter-assumptions.

This thread could be a model for how politics works, particularly the two-party kind. We got the anti-vax party and the anti-anti-vax party, which demonstrates a tendency toward being simply pro-vax without rigorous engagement in the same way that the video channel "influencers" and those here who post their shit will deny being right-wingers while only ever demonstrating sympathy for right wing demagoguery.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:41 pm

Spiro C. Thiery » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:48 am wrote:
liminalOyster » 28 Jul 2020, 10:44 wrote:

In short, I have yet to see anything anyone has posted here that includes theorising that would not fall into the glossary of terms over at the aforementioned blog.


Likely, but the rigorous engagement with challenges to said posting seems a bit wanting,


I couldn't agree more. Wait. I do agree more, insofar as I would spin that there is plenty of rigorous engagement and challenging of said posting, and the nature of it is wanting indeed. A more recent example features a discussion that includes a lot of assumptions challenged by a lot of counter-assumptions.

This thread could be a model for how politics works, particularly the two-party kind. We got the anti-vax party and the anti-anti-vax party, which demonstrates a tendency toward being simply pro-vax without rigorous engagement in the same way that the video channel "influencers" and those here who post their shit will deny being right-wingers while only ever demonstrating sympathy for right wing demagoguery.


An unsaid thus naturalized popular position gets masked by a reactionary opposition to the negative/critical position, yes. This is common,

EDIT:

I wonder how much of this is a personal representational effect (not just for you, but in general in public conversation). IOW, how much of it is about trying to fix the position of the other speaker?

Because I am neither implicity "pro-vax" (and don't believe such a thing exists), nor "anti-vax" nor "anti-anti-vax," but could, based on given posts or statements be misunderstood as any of the three (though admittedly the sum total would make me appear "pro-vax.")

What I've always liked about RI is that it's kind of fundamentally committed to working hypotheses about the known based on theorizing the unknown. Hence whenever popular politics impose themselves here (as in the case of SLAD's perpetual anti-Trump feed), it feels foreign and almost fascist. Trumps grotesque but IMO not at all what he appears to be.

But these terms (pro, anti, anti-anti) are all terms more or less from the pop political vernacular.

Vaccination is basically a form of body modification. Sure it has mimetic roots (antibodies) in a "natural" (occurring without the application of human labor) process, but also has connections to, say, bulimia, tattooing, designer babies, stem cells, abortion, etc. Hence to have anything but a fairly ambivalent relationship to it en totale feels as if it would associationally speak also to all those other terms, too. Upon which I have varying opinions, including no opinion.

So I'm definitely not "pro-vax."

Vax are just part of the world. I trust and intuit their efficacy in many times/places/situations. I get them. I give most to my children.

Anti-vax seems grounded, first, in a piety toward a form of "nature" I don't empirically believe in - that the world is best left untouched and has a guiding, teleo-logic. At the same time, I passionately agree with the body autonomy which underlies the anti-vax argument against mandatory vaccination. But then, notice, I've already tried to argue that Vax can be compared to bodily modification. Also, there's a fine line between the aforementioned teleo-logic and the common-in-Europe precautionary principle of public health which refuses to take root here. Which further complicates things because, in general, I agree with that ethos. Though sometimes I suspect that maybe accelerationist techno-futurism is a better answer. Though I never say this in person.

As for anti-anti-vax, I find it laborious to involve too much in that. Because it happens on top of these other two terms which I already feel complicated relatioships too. But I'm very familiar with VAERS and that numerous strong claims about it have been posted on this board at times both by those who would fall into either of the two aforementioned positions. There is a class of people (I've read their own statements) who want to "use" VAERS to prove something about vax, I've also read the position of those who would claims that VAERS has zero epistemological value.

My point is that I don't identify with any of the three positions or camps you propose. Which, in support of what you're saying, is not entirely different than how I feel about Trump/Anti-Trump/Anti-Anti-Trump or Abortion/Anti-Abortion/Anti-Anti-Abortion. Nor do I care about influencing anyone (here at least). But I value this outpost because it attracts and retains people with positions and thought-streams that often fall outside of or transcend these triads.

So, thanks for the challenge engagement, which is precisely why I like RI.

PS. FWIW, I currently entertain all the following taboo possibilities: 1) Something weird is going on with Hydroxylchloroquine and the truth of its efficacy or non-efficacy has been lost to a partisan-econmic theater, 2) Dr Stella is bananas but probably her demon etc theories, stated in other words, are not so crazy, 3) COVID is a legitimate pandemic caused by a zoonotic virus that is killing (both now and delayed) a huge number of Americans, 4) masks unambiguously reduced risk of aerosol and droplets when worn correctly, 5) I don't believe a word out of Bill Gates mouth, 6) I don't trust Fauci further than I can throw him (two feet maybe) but believe a lot of words coming out of his mouth, 6) I won't be surprised if hindsight reveals that the oh-so-crazy 5G theories were on the right path, 7) we could basically end the crisis if we chose, and fairly easily at much smaller economic hit. This list is probably ad inifnitum. But its always a good and high principle on this site to privielge Cui Bono. So focusing on 7 is the best course of action and pretty much returns us to familiar RI territory.

Who is benefitting at this time from the crisis. The answer to this one is worthy of rigorous curiosity, intuition and suspension of judgment.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Blue » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:59 pm

What I've always liked about RI is that it's kind of fundamentally committed to working hypotheses about the known based on theorizing the unknown. Hence whenever popular politics impose themselves here (as in the case of SLAD's perpetual anti-Trump feed), it feels foreign and almost fascist. Trumps grotesque but IMO not at all what he appears to be.

Wow, someone who showed up a decade after slad was invited here by Jeff is diagnosing her. It sounds like you and a couple of others here are home-schooled psychoanalysts. Psycho babbling on and on about how people pointing out fascism are actually crazy. Then to admit it right here...Trumps grotesque but IMO not at all what he appears to be.

Do tell, what the fuck is he?

Vaccination is basically a form of body modification. Sure it has mimetic roots (antibodies) in a "natural" (occurring without the application of human labor) process, but also has connections to, say, bulimia, tattooing, designer babies, stem cells, abortion, etc. Hence to have anything but a fairly ambivalent relationship to it en totale feels as if it would associationally speak also to all those other terms, too. Upon which I have varying opinions, including no opinion.


What the fuck. Extremely disparate things in that list. Tattoos and abortions have nothing in common. You are either having a fun little hoaxy on RI or having a brain or AI schism.

But then, notice, I've already tried to argue that Vax can be compared to bodily modification. Also, there's a fine line between the aforementioned teleo-logic and the common-in-Europe precautionary principle of public health which refuses to take root here. Which further complicates things because, in general, I agree with that ethos. Though sometimes I suspect that maybe accelerationist techno-futurism is a better answer. Though I never say this in person.


teleo-logic? accelerationist? Maybe you never say this in person because people would say: STFU.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Blue » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:18 pm

My point is that I don't identify with any of the three positions or camps you propose. Which, in support of what you're saying, is not entirely different than how I feel about Trump/Anti-Trump/Anti-Anti-Trump or Abortion/Anti-Abortion/Anti-Anti-Abortion. Nor do I care about influencing anyone (here at least). But I value this outpost because it attracts and retains people with positions and thought-streams that often fall outside of or transcend these triads.

Wishy-washy sloppy selfish craptrap. You don't have to identify with some made-up "camp" to acknowledge that Trump is a lying, corrupt disaster for America. Living in this little bubble called RI is living in a fantasy, believing you can discuss meta and mega problems without actually addressing the immediate problems. And it's obvious yall read the regular news so you can discount it here, which is telling.

Dr Stella is bananas but probably her demon etc theories, stated in other words, are not so crazy,


Okay, I'm done. RI has been completely compromised.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:07 pm

Blue » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:18 pm wrote:
My point is that I don't identify with any of the three positions or camps you propose. Which, in support of what you're saying, is not entirely different than how I feel about Trump/Anti-Trump/Anti-Anti-Trump or Abortion/Anti-Abortion/Anti-Anti-Abortion. Nor do I care about influencing anyone (here at least). But I value this outpost because it attracts and retains people with positions and thought-streams that often fall outside of or transcend these triads.

Wishy-washy sloppy selfish craptrap. You don't have to identify with some made-up "camp" to acknowledge that Trump is a lying, corrupt disaster for America. Living in this little bubble called RI is living in a fantasy, believing you can discuss meta and mega problems without actually addressing the immediate problems. And it's obvious yall read the regular news so you can discount it here, which is telling.

Dr Stella is bananas but probably her demon etc theories, stated in other words, are not so crazy,


Okay, I'm done. RI has been completely compromised.


I'm straight up 150% baffled by your this response.

1. I totally acknowledge that Trump is "a lying, corrupt disaster for America. " I don't yet know how he's connected to Epstein, Clintons, etc. In this he's not "what he seems" ie a doddering wealthy dumbfuck who stumbled into the presidency.

2. I'm not diagnosing anyone with anything, and SLAD least of all. I was saying that it's nice to have a space where the usual political language is relatively so avoided in the interest of discussing other weirder things. I love SLAD. She also posted huge amounts of copy-pasta from MSM about Trump and Russiagate. No personal insult whatsoever was implied towards her.

3. If it makes you happy, I can phrase it this way - Dr. Stella is bananas. Full stop. Dr Stella, also, is talking about problems of the mind and consciousness in a language used by many poor people (albeit in a way more florid style) in a way that is very similar to how rich people talk in their own therapy. I think thats interesting. I think this is interesting and could lead to a very real-world-relevant conversation about the specific manner in which she was attacked by high profile lib media organs (ie Daily Beast.)

Have a great day. Sorry to bother you, Blue. Sincerely.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Elvis » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:48 am

:starz:
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:22 am

liminalOyster » Yesterday, 18:41 wrote:What I've always liked about RI is that it's kind of fundamentally committed to working hypotheses about the known based on theorizing the unknown.

Hear! It is an unfortunate byproduct that it is also populated with a style committed to pasting whatever obvious bs conspiracy propaganda from sources who do not, as far as I know, populate this place. And so, they de facto populate this place. Oh well.

liminalOyster » Yesterday, 18:41 wrote:So, thanks for the challenge engagement, which is precisely why I like RI.


Thank you.

liminalOyster » Yesterday, 18:41 wrote:Who is benefitting at this time from the crisis. The answer to this one is worthy of rigorous curiosity, intuition and suspension of judgment.


I'll only repeat the obvious known: Billionaires. They are benefitting handsomely irrespective of their rhetorical positioning. Actions speak louder than words.

As to the rest of it, and in the spirit of the whackiest that Jeff might have brought: Maybe consciousness itself it a psyop. But I got a life to lead. Nice post.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:21 am

Blue » Yesterday, 21:59 wrote:
But then, notice, I've already tried to argue that Vax can be compared to bodily modification. Also, there's a fine line between the aforementioned teleo-logic and the common-in-Europe precautionary principle of public health which refuses to take root here. Which further complicates things because, in general, I agree with that ethos. Though sometimes I suspect that maybe accelerationist techno-futurism is a better answer. Though I never say this in person.

teleo-logic? accelerationist? Maybe you never say this in person because people would say: STFU.


Come now. This is not the response one would get in person. It's the response one gets online. Apologies if an intended irony misses me. I don't want to speak for Liminal, but it seems to me you're missing an opportunity to understand (or ignore) the ideas of someone who went to great length to express themselves outside the paradigm that deserves to garner such a response.

Blue » Yesterday, 21:59 wrote:
Vaccination is basically a form of body modification. Sure it has mimetic roots (antibodies) in a "natural" (occurring without the application of human labor) process, but also has connections to, say, bulimia, tattooing, designer babies, stem cells, abortion, etc. Hence to have anything but a fairly ambivalent relationship to it en totale feels as if it would associationally speak also to all those other terms, too. Upon which I have varying opinions, including no opinion.

What the fuck. Extremely disparate things in that list. Tattoos and abortions have nothing in common. You are either having a fun little hoaxy on RI or having a brain or AI schism.


The breach is yours. Liminal stated pretty explicitely that they both are a form of body modification. I have had a long enough pro-choice life not to be unduly affected by the notion that abortion might be body modification. I don't even object to the implication that perpetuates the myth that people get abortions like they're getting tattoos. As a matter of fact, I find the categorisation so apt as to be the kind of thing that would make the likes of Rush Limbaugh flip the fuck out (so long as a "liberal" had coined the twist of term).

Blue » Yesterday, 21:59 wrote:
What I've always liked about RI is that it's kind of fundamentally committed to working hypotheses about the known based on theorizing the unknown. Hence whenever popular politics impose themselves here (as in the case of SLAD's perpetual anti-Trump feed), it feels foreign and almost fascist. Trumps grotesque but IMO not at all what he appears to be.


Wow, someone who showed up a decade after slad was invited here by Jeff is diagnosing her. It sounds like you and a couple of others here are home-schooled psychoanalysts. Psycho babbling on and on about how people pointing out fascism are actually crazy. Then to admit it right here...Trumps grotesque but IMO not at all what he appears to be.

Do tell, what the fuck is he?


He's a rich spoiled kid who was treated with kid gloves by the broader public as represented by the media and assisted to the top spot of the GOP by the party meant to oppose him because they thought defeating him would be a slam-dunk (though they might have forgot how that previous slam-dunk turned out). Suddenly, it would seem, he was some kind of joke and not just a guy to pal around with at parties of the rich and famous.

But, you see, that's just what we know. Liminal suggested at the outset that theorising based upon these knowns might be something appropriate to this very forum. Personally, I'd say the knowns I just stated could involve the "design not flaw" aspect so common in public policy, i.e. Iraq 2.0b was not a mistake or something everybody got tricked into, but a way to keep some industries happy and politicos in turn. Questioning the details does not seem all that absurd to me.

As Trump's financial class of people (irrespective of their stated politics) currently reap an untold financial windfall that makes his two predecessors' bailout blush, one would do well to find some angle to discuss COVID-19 in a way that transcends the loudest two positions on the subject.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Cordelia » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Unwarranted attack on liminal up-thread. What was that about? :shock:
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blue, please don't do that

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:13 pm

blue, there's no need for this approach. Where does it come from? Please just stick to the argument, no need for the attacks on liminal. Spiro's explaining it reasonably (thanks).
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