Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 18, 2020 2:54 pm

.

It's easy to make fun of these yahoos, the strutting fatties with the big guns and bazookas and basically fascist mentality marching in the name of their liberty to get a hair stylist, which is true, and to point out that they're astroturfed, which is true, and to say the capitalists want low-wage workers as forced labor during the pandemic, which is true, and to see that the states all want to end lockdown so they have an excuse to start purging the unemployment rolls and don't give a shit about any level of plebeian death unless it swings elections and anyway those are being massaged as well, all of which is true.

At the same time, these same elements are basically only just getting started in their project of Strafe the Working Poor, until they're all willing to do the forced labor part, and Seize the Moment, to rearrange everything into the next version of Dysfunctional Techno Dystopia.

But goddamned, given all that, this fucking country ain't going to put up the minimum cash creation necessary to keep the majority of the population going against rent, mortgages, utilities, debt and other overhead. 36 million unemployment filings probably represents another 10-20 million who have lost their other income from off the books or their contract labor (often called "small business"). This is only starting, and these kinds of numbers represent a coming upheaval and a potential for excess death likely to exceed that of the pandemic itself. It didn't have to be. But here we are.

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Mon May 18, 2020 3:24 pm

JackRiddler » Mon May 18, 2020 2:54 pm wrote:.

It's easy to make fun of these yahoos, the strutting fatties with the big guns and bazookas and basically fascist mentality marching in the name of their liberty to get a hair stylist, which is true, and to point out that they're astroturfed, which is true, and to say the capitalists want low-wage workers as forced labor during the pandemic, which is true, and to see that the states all want to end lockdown so they have an excuse to start purging the unemployment rolls and don't give a shit about any level of plebeian death unless it swings elections and anyway those are being massaged as well, all of which is true.

At the same time, these same elements are basically only just getting started in their project of Strafe the Working Poor, until they're all willing to do the forced labor part, and Seize the Moment, to rearrange everything into the next version of Dysfunctional Techno Dystopia.

But goddamned, given all that, this fucking country ain't going to put up the minimum cash creation necessary to keep the majority of the population going against rent, mortgages, utilities, debt and other overhead. 36 million unemployment filings probably represents another 10-20 million who have lost their other income from off the books or their contract labor (often called "small business"). This is only starting, and these kinds of numbers represent a coming upheaval and a potential for excess death likely to exceed that of the pandemic itself. It didn't have to be. But here we are.

.


Total agreement. But part of my own take/response to that is - if people stop the spread *and* don't fall for the very powerful bait that Thanatos is our ally, we may take back some iota of control. Meaning it's a two-front war. No doubt IMO that this is the big event RI has basically waited for and predicted for a decade. But we're not powerless if we get the theory/model/etc right. And btw I'm not laughing at anyone, including the yahoos at my state capitol who got sick after their Liberate-apalooza. Their intuitive sense that the powerful are inaugurating a new phase is not that different than my own. But they're basically getting only half the equation right. We need mutual aid and we need to see both the virus *and* the techno-pigs a our enemy.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon May 18, 2020 4:33 pm

Iamwhomiam » Tue May 12, 2020 7:31 pm wrote:
Grizzly » Mon May 11, 2020 8:58 pm wrote:
Webb works at Ft Dietrich. He's a spook, for sure - just search out his background.


Unless you point to a source, your full of SHIT.



Nice, Grizzly. Like I said, Search his background and past positions of employment and then draw your conclusions, as I have. But then, you really know nothing at all about him, do you? You just like what he says because of you own personal confirmation bias, and that make him credible? What education does he have? Any advanced degrees? And he claims to be one who performs analysis for Ft. Deitrick? Worked for WHO and the UN, too? And who in hell is his Oloughlin character interviewing Webb?



George Webb

So-called Internet grifter George Webb Sweigert fashions himself as some type of social media investigative reporter. Born in Cleveland, Ohio on October 12, 1960, “George Webb” hails from the same area as Jerome Corsi of New Jersey.

As with other peers and grifters, G. W. Sweigert has a history of alleged alcohol abuse, slander, libel, smear campaigns, public sexual encounters, etc. George Webb has recounted hundreds of fanciful stories for his social media audiences that have placed him in the center of human trafficking rings, “brown stone” sex blackmail operations, viewing video of the President of the United States having sex with under-aged girls, etc.
Image

Much more here:

https://sdny.news/george-webb/
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon May 18, 2020 4:59 pm

https://www.propublica.org/article/im-an-investigative-journalist-these-are-the-questions-i-asked-about-the-viral-plandemic-video

I’m an Investigative Journalist. These Are the Questions I Asked About the Viral “Plandemic” Video.

ProPublica health care reporter Marshall Allen describes the questions he asks to assess coronavirus misinformation, starting with a viral video that claims the coronavirus is part of a “hidden agenda.”

by Marshall Allen May 9, 7 a.m. EDT

The links to the viral video “Plandemic” started showing up in my Facebook feed Wednesday. “Very interesting,” one of my friends wrote about it. I saw several subsequent posts about it, and then my brother texted me, “Got a sec?”

My brother is a pastor in Colorado and had someone he respects urge him to watch “Plandemic,” a 26-minute video that promises to reveal the “hidden agenda” behind the COVID-19 pandemic. I called him and he shared his concern: People seem to be taking the conspiracy theories presented in “Plandemic” seriously. He wondered if I could write something up that he could pass along to them, to help people distinguish between sound reporting and conspiracy thinking or propaganda.

So I watched “Plandemic.” I did not find it credible, as I will explain below. YouTube, Facebook and Vimeo have since removed it from their platforms for violating their guidelines. Now it’s available on its own site.

Sensational videos, memes, rants and more about COVID-19 are likely to keep coming. With society polarized and deep distrust of the media, the government and other institutions, such content is a way for bad actors to sow discord, mostly via social media. We saw it with Russia in the 2016 election and we should expect it to continue.

But what surprised me is how easily “Plandemic” sank its hooks into some of my friends. My brother also felt alarmed that his own church members and leaders in other churches might be tempted to buy into it.

The purpose of this column is not to skewer “Plandemic.” My goal is to offer some criteria for sifting through all the content we see every day, so we can tell the difference between fair reporting and something so biased it should not be taken seriously.

Here’s a checklist, some of which I shared with my friends on Facebook, to help interrogate any content — and that includes what we publish at ProPublica.
Is the Presentation One-Sided?

There’s never just one side to a story. I mentioned this point in 2018 when I wrote about my faith and the biblical basis for investigative reporting. One of my favorite Proverbs says, “The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.” So a fair presentation should at least acknowledge opposing points of view.

I didn’t see this in “Plandemic,” so I called the filmmaker, Mikki Willis, who is also the film’s narrator, to ask him whether I had somehow missed the other side of the argument. I had not. “The other side of the argument plays 24/7 on every screen in every airport and on every phone and in every home,” Willis said. “The people are only seeing one side of the story all the time. This is the other side of the story. This is not a piece that’s intended to be perfectly balanced.”

I asked Willis if it was fair to call his film “propaganda,” which the Oxford dictionary defines as “information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.”

He said he doesn’t feel there’s anything misleading in his film, but otherwise the definition fits. And based on that definition he feels 100% of news reporting is propaganda. “What isn’t propaganda these days?” he asked. “In that sense, what we’re doing is fighting fire with fire.”

Is There an Independent Pursuit of the Truth?

The star of “Plandemic,” medical researcher Judy Mikovits, is controversial. The magazine Science reports that it published and then retracted one of her papers in 2011. A search warrant provided to ProPublica by one of her former attorneys shows she was fired from her position at Whittemore Peterson Institute, a research center in Nevada, in September 2011. Then she allegedly stole notebooks and a laptop computer from the Institute, the search warrant said, leading to an arrest warrant for alleged possession of stolen property and unlawful taking of computer data. She was arrested on Nov. 18, 2011, but denied wrongdoing. The charges were dropped.

But “Plandemic” ignores or brushes past these facts and portrays her as an embattled whistleblower. “So you made a discovery that conflicted with the agreed-upon narrative?” Willis says to Mikovits, introducing her as a victim. “And for that, they did everything in their powers to destroy your life.”

A typical viewer is not going to know the details about Mikovits’ background. But as the primary source of controversial information being presented as fact, it’s worth an online search. The fact-checking site PolitiFact details her arrest and criminal charges. Clearly, there’s more to her story than what’s presented in “Plandemic.” That should give us pause when we assess its credibility.

Is There a Careful Adherence to the Facts?

In “Plandemic,” Willis asks Mikovits about her arrest: “What did they charge you with?”

“Nothing,” she replies. “I was held in jail, with no charges.”

Being charged with a crime is one of those concrete facts that we can check out. Science magazine reported Mikovits’ arrest and felony charge. I also found a civil lawsuit she filed against the Whittemore Peterson Institute in 2014 in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California. “Mikovits was arrested on criminal charges…” [url-https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6884603-Mikovits-Lawsuit-Complaint.html#document/p2/a563100]her complaint says[/url] in the case, which was eventually dismissed.

I asked Willis about the apparent discrepancy, where she said in his film that she wasn’t charged, when court documents show that she was charged. After my inquiry, he said he spoke to Mikovits and now feels it is clear that she meant that the charges were dropped.

I tracked down Mikovits and she said what she meant in the film is that there were no charges of any type of wrongdoing that would have led to her being charged with being a fugitive from justice. She admitted that all the controversy has been hard for her to sort out. “I’ve been confused for a decade,” she told me. She said she would try to be more clear in the future when she talks about the criminal charge: “I’ll try to learn to say it differently,” she said.

This underscores the importance of careful verification, and it distinguishes the craft of journalism from other forms of information sharing. People often speak imprecisely when they’re telling their stories. It’s our duty to nail down precisely what they do and do not mean, and verify it independently. If we don’t, we risk undermining their credibility and ours. That’s in part why we at ProPublica and many other journalists often link directly to our underlying source documents, so you can verify the information yourself.

Are Those Accused Allowed to Respond?

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, is one of the nation’s leaders in the response to the coronavirus. In “Plandemic,” Mikovits accuses Fauci of a cover-up and of paying off people who perpetrate fraud, among other things. PolitiFact found no evidence to support the allegations against Fauci.

Every time I write a story that accuses someone of wrongdoing I call them and urge them to explain the situation from their perspective. This is standard in mainstream journalism. Sometimes I’ve gone to extreme lengths to get comments from someone who will be portrayed unfavorably in my story — traveling to another state and showing up at their office and their home and leaving a note if they are not there to meet me. “Plandemic” doesn’t indicate whether the filmmakers reached out to Fauci for his version of the story. So I asked Willis about it. “We did not,” he told me.

Are All Sources Named and Cited, and if Not, Is the Reason Explained?

All sources should be identified, with their credentials, so viewers can verify their expertise or possible biases. If they can’t be for some reason, then that should be explained. “Plandemic” features unnamed people in medical scrubs, presented as doctors, saying they’re being wrongly pressured to add COVID-19 on people’s death certificates or are not being allowed to use the drug hydroxychloroquine to treat patients. But the speakers are not named, so we can’t really tell who they are, or even if they are doctors at all. That makes it impossible to tell if they are credible.

I asked Willis why he didn’t name those people. He told me he was in a hurry to release the 26-minute version of “Plandemic,” but the doctors will be named in the final version. “We should have done that,” he said.

Does the Work Claim Some Secret Knowledge?

“Plandemic” calls itself a documentary that reveals “the hidden agenda behind COVID-19.” We are in the midst of a global pandemic where few people in the world can figure out what is happening or the right way to respond, let alone agendas. We have almost every journalist in the country writing about this. And if the truth about a conspiracy is out there, many people have an incentive to share it. But “Plandemic” would like us to think it’s presenting some exclusive bit of secret knowledge that is going to get at the real story. That’s not likely.

Plus, to be honest, there were so many conspiratorial details stacked on top of each other in the film I couldn’t keep them straight. When I spoke to Willis I told him I was having a hard time understanding his point. Then I took a stab at what I thought was the main thrust of his argument. “Are you saying that powerful people planned the pandemic and made it happen so they could get rich by making everyone get vaccines?” I asked.

It turns out Willis isn’t sure either. “We’re in the exploratory phase,” he told me. “I don’t know, to be clear, if it’s an intentional or naturally occurring situation. I have no idea.”

Then he went on to say that the pandemic is being politicized and used to take away our civil liberties and leverage other political policies. “Certain forces” have latched onto the situation, he said. “It’s too fishy.”

He had me at, “I have no idea.” That sums it up. This is a vast pandemic and massive catastrophe. Our country wasn’t prepared for it, and the response by our top leaders has been disjointed. We’re restricted to our homes. Many people have lost their jobs and some are afraid or sick or dying. That makes us vulnerable to exploitation by people who will present inaccurate or intellectually dishonest information that promises to tell us the truth.

Perhaps “Plandemic” is guilty of sloppy storytelling, or maybe people really do believe the things they’re saying in the video. Or perhaps they’re being intentionally dishonest, or it’s a biased connecting of the dots rooted in personal and professional grievances. I don’t know because I can’t get inside their heads to judge their motives.

Ultimately, we’re all going to need to be more savvy consumers when it comes to information, no matter how slickly it’s presented. This may be but a signal of what’s to come in the run-up to the 2020 presidential election, when memes and ads of unknown origin come across our social media feeds. There are standards for judging the credibility of the media we take in every day, so let’s apply them.

https://www.propublica.org/article/im-an-investigative-journalist-these-are-the-questions-i-asked-about-the-viral-plandemic-video
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon May 18, 2020 5:42 pm

Iamwhomiam » Thu May 14, 2020 1:38 pm wrote:
stickdog99 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:40 am wrote:
liminalOyster » 13 May 2020 20:52 wrote:I agree emphatically that all sorts of risky precedents are at play or potential play. Some of the worst I can imagine in fact.

I'm also very confident that masks and social distancing help reduce transmission and save lives. Much like I believe about vaccines in general while passionately and totally opposing them ever being mandatory.

So I have no difficulty separating out in my own mind that one can 100% oppose any criminalization of what need to be consensual opt-ins and still passionately support the proposed measures.

Please *choose* to wear a mask in public places.

Please. Please. Please.


I have no problem with this. Obviously, I advocate breathing responsibly. With so many unknowns, why try to help out however you can?

And about vaccines, all I want is mechanisms in place that at least try to demonstrate that each and every recommended vaccine's benefits exceed its costs and risks. As it stands today, our medical community assumes that this is true for every vaccine ever invented to date or yet to be invented until proven otherwise by mechanisms purposefully designed not to be able to quantify the health risks of any approved vaccine while shielding vaccine manufacturers of all liability of any harms their vaccines might inflict. How does such a system make sense unless you assume that all vaccine manufacturers are somehow uniquely altruistic among capitalists or that all vaccines are uniquely harmless among pharmacologically active substances?


"I have no problem with this. Obviously, I advocate breathing responsibly. With so many unknowns, why try to help out however you can?"


That last bit stickdog, is cold! I suppose the firefighters who were killed on 911 felt differently, as I do. Why is there any question when it come to helping someone in need? Risk to self? Only a selfish person could ask such a question. I'm sure Joe's aware of the risks he takes fighting brush and forest fires and would feel the same as I do as an EMT. We enjoy helping those in need even when risk is involved.

That bit ^^^ was an afterthought. What prompted me to comment, was this:

"And about vaccines, all I want is mechanisms in place that at least try to demonstrate that each and every recommended vaccine's benefits exceed its costs and risks"


I completely agree with you, stickdog. I believe you should be promoting the adoption of the Precautionary Principle as often as you can. http://www.precautionaryprinciple.eu/

If the precautionary principle was adopted there would be no such thing as an unsafe medicine or vaccination.

https://www.sehn.org/precautionary-principle-understanding-science-in-regulation

"When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public, should bear the burden of proof. The process of applying the precautionary principle must be open, informed and democratic and must include potentially affected parties. It must also involve an examination of the full range of alternatives, including no action." - Wingspread Statement on the Precautionary Principle, Jan. 1998


stickdog99, I need to apologize to you for having written this "That last bit stickdog, is cold! I suppose the firefighters who were killed on 911 felt differently, as I do. Why is there any question when it come to helping someone in need? Risk to self? Only a selfish person could ask such a question"

I assure you, I meant to add, "I'm sure you meant to write "Why not..." I know you're not a selfish person." I believe you are a kind soul.

But I am sad to see you had no response at all. I can understand your not caring to respond if you felt insulted by my grave omission, but certainly I'd like to hear your viewpoint, your feelings, about adopting The Precautionary Principle. I believe we must adopt this wise principle and practice.

I'd like other commentators to share their opinions on the precautionary principle, too, please.

0_0, Yes, 'take no action' is often the best choice, but unfortunately, not that often chosen.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Mon May 18, 2020 5:47 pm

.

What a terrible mistake that guy makes, as he sets out in his valiant and for all I know highly effective effort to address this awful Plandemic video, only to administer an early bullet to his own head with the altogether superfluous statement: "We saw it with Russia in the 2016 election and we should expect it to continue." My new standard for #Russiagaters is zero tolerance, even more so in cases where the trope actually has no function, where they "incidentally" or "peripherally" mention these falsehoods, as if they belong to our common idiom of wisdoms and similes. That noise needs to be flushed out right now. It has done enough damage. I stop reading right there. (Note: I should say, this is my personal standard. It is not board policy. But I'd feel the same way if Einstein wanted to explain his relativity theory for laypersons but had a tic where he would insert a sentence like, "As we know, gravity pulls on stuff, just like Greeks are filth.")

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon May 18, 2020 6:52 pm

I knew that would catch in someone's craw. It's of no consequence, as you point out, to all else he has to say, but that's fine you feel that way. A lot of credible people do still not know the truth of the matter, russiagate. I'm also unfamiliar with this writer, but his analysis of Plandemic and Mitkovics is spot on, regardless whether he believes Russia was the responsible meddler, or is innocently simply passing on propaganda. I'm surprised a historian like you would not read the entire copy before passing judgment.

Edited to add: You have anything to say about the precaution principle, Jack? There's no mention in it of anything to do with Greeks.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby liminalOyster » Mon May 18, 2020 11:18 pm

Jesus.

"[L]et me put it very clearly, you have no constitutional right to endanger the public and spread the disease even if you disagree, you have no right not to be vaccinated, you have no right not to wear a mask, you have no right to open up your business. And if you refuse to be vaccinated the state has the power to literally take you to a doctor's office and plunge a needle into your arm. If there's a disease that will kill you, you have the right to refuse that, but you have no right to refuse to be vaccinated against a contagious disease for public health. The police have the power of the Constitution that gives the state the power to compel that".

-- Alan Dershowitz

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Tue May 19, 2020 12:15 am

What the fuck is he even talking about? The Constitution gives the police the power to force a medical treatment—"jab a needle in your arm"—against your will? Could he point to that clause? I don't remember that part of it.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby 0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm

Make it illegal to persistently spread Covid-19 conspiracy theories
May 18, 2020

It should be made illegal for conspiracy theorists like David Icke to spread disinformation online, an MP has said. A number of well-known names with large social media followings have been key distributors of false information during the pandemic, research shows. The spread of baseless theories linking 5G to ill health led some members of the public to set fire to network masts, while false and dangerous claims that disinfectant could be used to treat the virus were even repeated by US President Donald Trump.

Conservative MP Damian Collins, who has launched a fact-checking service called Infotagion to combat falsehoods during the pandemic, told the PA news agency: “Disinformation can kill people.It can lead them to make the wrong decisions about what’s good for them and their family, and in the most extreme courses, it could lead them to take a drug or a treatment that could be dangerous to their health.” Mr Collins, former chairman of the Commons’ digital, culture, media and sport committee, said there need to be “requirements in law” to stop people who are persistently spreading disinformation online, such as Mr Icke.

Image

“It’s not good enough that we just have to remove certain posts that are wrong,” he said.
“If there is a certain channel, group or individual that is persistently pushing this information out then that sort of malicious abuse of social media in a public health emergency should be an offence.”


https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/make-it-illegal-to-persistently-spread-covid-19-conspiracy-theories some comedic relief in these dark times
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 19, 2020 2:46 pm

What the hell is wrong with everyone? Goddamn!

When one extremely unpleasant person, Epstein client and thus possible child rapist, and long-time advocate of fascistoid politics of various kinds calls for imprisonment and forced shots for unvaccinated, and when lawmakers suggest criminal bans on future speech they've magically determined is factually wrong, I know humorous riffs are absurd, but I can't help noticing the implicit assumption in the way the fact-checking morons frame the question -- "Is the Illuminati behind the Coronavirus? False" -- that "the Illuminati" exists as an identifiable real entity in space and time that could be "behind" the Coronavirus.

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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 5:11 pm

Once disinformation is outlawed by our governors, then only our governors will spread disinformation.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 5:17 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » 19 May 2020 04:15 wrote:What the fuck is he even talking about? The Constitution gives the police the power to force a medical treatment—"jab a needle in your arm"—against your will? Could he point to that clause? I don't remember that part of it.


"Epstein didn't kill himself" has been ruled an unreasonable search while vaccine-induced Guillain-Barre symptoms have been ruled "reasonable seizures."
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby dada » Tue May 19, 2020 5:23 pm

JackRiddler » Tue May 19, 2020 2:46 pm wrote:What the hell is wrong with everyone? Goddamn!

When one extremely unpleasant person, Epstein client and thus possible child rapist, and long-time advocate of fascistoid politics of various kinds calls for forced imprisonment of the unvaccinated, and when lawmakers suggest criminal bans on future speech they've magically determined is factually wrong, I know humorous riffs are absurd, but I can't help noticing the implicit assumption in the way the fact-checking morons frame the question -- "Is the Illuminati behind the Coronavirus? False" -- that "the Illuminati" exists as an identifiable real entity in space and time.

.


Would humorous riffs really be absurd here, though? If the riffs are absurd, when things are absurd, then the riffs aren't absurd, they're redundant.

You know, I remember in that speech where Donald suggested ingesting disinfectant, he also discussed injecting light, ultra violet light under the skin. But no one talks about that. I always wonder, why is that? I feel a great opportunity has been missed.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

Postby alloneword » Tue May 19, 2020 5:24 pm

0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 6:01 pm wrote:
Disinformation can kill people. It can lead them to make the wrong decisions about what’s good for them and their family, and in the most extreme courses, it could lead them to...


..elect someone like Damian Collins. :|
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