"Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?)

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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:26 pm

MacCruiskeen » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:19 pm wrote:It's not just philosophical, though, it's highly practical. Indeed, it's urgent. Since late 2019, billions of people have had their lives disrupted or destroyed by powerful actors who cite TheScience™ as justification for a Great Reset. For nearly two years now, hundreds of millions of defenceless children have been force-masked, antisocially-distanced, browbeaten, frightened, indoctrinated, addicted to screens, thorougly and lastingly conditioned, marked for life, taught to fear the air they breathe and the humans who breathe it -- and now they're being pricked with dangerous experimental gene-fiddling substances they demonstrably do not need, but which will make billions of dollars for the manufacturers.

All this is all "justified" by reference to Germ Theory, the sacred, foundational and barely-challengeable dogma that they, we, all of us, are under constant mortal threat from ubiquitous Flying Killer-Dots, tiny wee monsters we can't even see, things that aren't even alive but like nothing better than making us sick and killing us..

Are even scientists human? Call me cynical, but I think so. Are they sometimes lazy, vain, complacent or corrupt? (Whaddya, whaddya.) Do powerful individuals and institutions have a vested interest in not biting the hand that feeds them? (You go too far, sir, by God you go too far.)

Have scientific paradigms ever changed? Only with difficulty, usually slowly and reluctantly. We might ask Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Alfred Wegener or Ignaz Semmelweis, just for starters.

Can it be that even today's TheScience™ is not infallible? The question might conceivably be worth looking into, while there's still time and while we're still allowed to.


Ha! You admit in your later examples that it is indeed a philosophical question. I happen to believe philosophy is of profound practical importance and underpins everything we do, even today. From your experience of having studied it, you believe otherwise, so I bow to your superior knowledge.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:24 pm

Harvey » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:52 am wrote:If you're a parent you already know how quickly 'stomach bugs' move through a school or household.


Well, I'm a parent, and an ex-child, and I don't remember any such thing. Sounds like a bad school dinner or something.

What I do remember is how nearly all the kids lost their front teeth around the same time (age 7). No one suggested that that was a contagious or infectious dental disease. It was a developmental stage, which is what Cowan suggests measles and chickenpox are. There appears to be strong evidence that people who get these "diseases"/go through that stage in childhood are substantially less likely to contract certaiin other, more serious, illnesses in adulthood. Which is just one reason why he argues it's wrong to vaccinate kids against chickenpox or measles.

".. she emitted an almighty sneeze and I felt the spray on my face. She was shambling forward in total self absorption clutching an entire toilet roll, clammy, deathly pale except for the red around her nose and eyes. More than twenty years later I can see it with great clarity. I thought 'Christ, here we go.' I was on my back for two days with no idea what hit me... [,,,] The sequence of events seems clear enough, but since nobody else in the family got it, the story isn't entirely simple either.


It could be the power of (self-)suggestion. ("I thought 'Christ, here we go.') It could be that you "pointed the bone" at yourself, having had it pointed at you by medical TheScience™ all your life. Being sneezed on is nothing to sneeze at, but it doesn't prove that the sneezer caused your cold, that she "infected you with her germs". If someone believes (or is told) that he's bound to get ill, then he's more likely to get ill. The reality of the nocebo and placebo effects has been demonstrated many times. Maybe you were exhausted, overworked, stressed-out or run-down at the time, I don't know. Sometimes a body has just had too much and needs to collapse, sleep, take care of itself (or be taken care of) and regenerate.

I watched the video, what I like about this way of thinking is that it offers a valuable additional lens through which to consider the same sets of facts. Surely, the more ways we have of seeing any problem, the more our biological reality unfolds and may yet lead us out of our current morass.


Er, yes and no. Some ways of seeing are more likely to damage or deceive us us than others, Telescopes are handier than blindfolds.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:29 pm

It could be the power of (self-)suggestion. ("I thought 'Christ, here we go.') It could be that you "pointed the bone" at yourself, having had it pointed at you by medical TheScience™


I agree, which is why, in a spirit of ruthless honesty, I introduced my subjective experience into the proceedings. I'm interested in truth, not my subjective beliefs, nor the subjective beliefs of groups of scientists, themselves subservient to an owner class.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:10 pm

Harvey wrote:in a spirit of ruthless honesty


Talking of childhood memories...

Ruth was pillion passenger,
Directly back of me.
I hit a bump and Ruth fell off
And I rode on ruthlessly.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:41 pm

:)
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby PufPuf93 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:03 pm

Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:03 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:48 pm wrote:
Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:27 am wrote:^ I believe that viruses exist because the theory makes sense in terms of my own experience. How I know that viruses exist is an entirely different question.

I accept that I do not know how I know, that in fact, I have a belief, which is not necessarily knowledge. If it were knowledge, I would be able to tell you exactly how I know viruses exist. I believe this is the philosophical point Mac is asking of you.

How do you know what you know?


Part of the contemporary human experience is our everyday lives are chock full of technological marvels that are far from readily discerned yet we accept and depend on the technology. Viruses are no different. There is a substantial body of scientists and research involved in virus research and applying the research.


I'm usually far from graceful, but in this instance, at least I am able to admit that I have no idea whether what I know is true, I only know why I believe it. It's definitely worth having this conversation with yourself now and then as I'm sure you appreciate.

Your answer appears to be that you do not know if viruses exist, but you accept that they do because of the opinions of others.

Is that a fair summary?

[Edit: delete repeated word]


No. I am a fiercely independent thinker.

I do not get how you conclude my opinion is derived from others.

The study of viruses is a developing and not a fixed science. Science is like that.

Spent lots of time in labs looking through microscopes, admittedly never at viruses.

I experienced chicken pox age 34 while a grad student at Cal. Major experience where was initially hospitalized. I was dating a woman who was the ExDir of a day care where there was a chicken [ox outbreak.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 pm

Harvey wrote: I happen to believe philosophy is of profound practical importance and underpins everything we do, even today. From your experience of having studied it, you believe otherwise, so I bow to your superior knowledge.


Oh,you may have got me wrong, I just meant I was far too young and immature to be ready for what philosophy could give me. A lot of it just bored and baffled and obscurely angered me, which I suppose was a kind of education it itself, but I couldn't really articulate my objections at the time. I felt buried in books, in dead people's dead and deadening thoughts, and a lot of it was indeed a pettifogging, antfucking waste of time. Dark satanic mills. Teenage boys should be out in the world working with their hands, learning practical skills. (Doesn't mean they can't also read books.) But I'm glad I got a basic training in logic and learned what it's good for and where its usefulness ends. I'm glad a few good teachers showed me how little I knew and how much words could weigh, and I've certainly learned things that helped me from philosophers I first encountered in my teens. Whitehead, the later Witttgenstein, Mary Midgley...Thomas Kuhn:

Image

And I agree with you 100% that we'd all do well to take a good look at our foundational assumptions and correct them if we need to and if we can, now more than ever. Also to listen to our soul, the root of all reason, and refuse to sell it when some plausible-seeming fraudster comes calling.

The 21st century is a bullshit blizzard and the Covid Years are burying us in it. Whenever I hear or read things these days, especially "the news" or the punditry that leeches off it, I find myself putting more and words into inverted commas because they're loaded, often deliberately, with nonsensical and dangerous assumptions. Words are weapons, among much else. They are also spells that can entrance us. Mind your pockets, there are sorcerors on the loose.

... Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
Under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
Decay with imprecision, will not stay in place,
Will not stay still. Shrieking voices
Scolding, mocking, or merely chattering,
Always assail them. ...

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"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:13 pm

PufPuf93 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:03 pm wrote:
Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:03 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:48 pm wrote:
Harvey » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:27 am wrote:^ I believe that viruses exist because the theory makes sense in terms of my own experience. How I know that viruses exist is an entirely different question.

I accept that I do not know how I know, that in fact, I have a belief, which is not necessarily knowledge. If it were knowledge, I would be able to tell you exactly how I know viruses exist. I believe this is the philosophical point Mac is asking of you.

How do you know what you know?


Part of the contemporary human experience is our everyday lives are chock full of technological marvels that are far from readily discerned yet we accept and depend on the technology. Viruses are no different. There is a substantial body of scientists and research involved in virus research and applying the research.


I'm usually far from graceful, but in this instance, at least I am able to admit that I have no idea whether what I know is true, I only know why I believe it. It's definitely worth having this conversation with yourself now and then as I'm sure you appreciate.

Your answer appears to be that you do not know if viruses exist, but you accept that they do because of the opinions of others.

Is that a fair summary?

[Edit: delete repeated word]


No. I am a fiercely independent thinker.

I do not get how you conclude my opinion is derived from others.

The study of viruses is a developing and not a fixed science. Science is like that.

Spent lots of time in labs looking through microscopes, admittedly never at viruses.

I experienced chicken pox age 34 while a grad student at Cal. Major experience where was initially hospitalized. I was dating a woman who was the ExDir of a day care where there was a chicken [ox outbreak.


I didn't conclude your opinion is derived from others. I concluded that if you know that what you believe is true, then you must be able to explain how you know it. You yourself could not explain how you know that viruses exist. You deferred by pointing to what other people have said. The theory of viruses seems to align with my experience of having ailments said to have been caused by communicable agents but I wouldn't venture to say that I know viruses exist, that is outside my knowledge. I have to rely on the accounts of those who assure me they do exist. If the question is, "how do you know?" then it is not "how does the guy next to you know?" unless that is actually how you know.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby norton ash » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:36 pm

... Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
Under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
Decay with imprecision, will not stay in place,
Will not stay still. Shrieking voices
Scolding, mocking, or merely chattering,
Always assail them. ...


Burnt Norton is one of the origins of my pseudonym.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:48 pm

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

― from Max Planck's Scientific Autobiography, quoted in Thomas S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 1962 (fourth revised edition 2012)


Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.

-- Richard Feynman (from "What is science?", a speech given to the National Science Teachers Association in 1966, shortly after he had received the Nobel Prize in Physics.)
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Harvey » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:06 am

I wasn't having a go at you yesterday, Puf. I know you're extremely knowledgeable, especially where I'm not. (In most areas I think.)

But I do think the question is an interesting one to pursue, not because I believe viruses don't exist, but because other avenues of enquiry are badly needed. Just look at how abused many people feel by the particular scientists and clinicians who have led them to this moment. In my view, the damage done to science and medicine is probably incalculable. Money poisoned the well.

Are shoddy vaccines really the hill that the reputation of science wants to die on?
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:54 am

The fact that some posters can simultaneously support the idea that 1)Covid doesn't exist and 2)if it does exist, it's less dangerous than the flu, 3)if it is dangerous, vaccines are worse... belies the emotional problem with ttis type of skepticism. They will choose the most convenient route to remain anti-.on the topic. Do you see this same emotional behavior in the "pro-science" crowd? Yes, of course. That is the nail that is being hammered. All this BS about 'choosing the side of Bill Gates and big pharma' is just that, BS pitting one against the other.

Equally argued that the other is choosing the side of Tucker and Hannity in their anti-ness. Neither gets anyone closer to lower case truth, let alone upper case Truth. We're all, including me, mired in this battle of identification. Fuck if I know the answer, and I still think a lot of folks here are posting a lot of pseudo-science presented smartly, but in glimpses I can see the divide at work.

Presented with concerning vaccine mandates on one side and an anti-vaccine crowd that has been tied in the USA to a racist dogwhistles and fascist tendencies, it is hard to split the difference. Others who are not me seem fine with accepting a Tucker and disassociating from the worst of him. But the fact that it's so hard to find Covid vaccine criticism that can't be tied to everything else wrong in America is a problem. And it seems to me in this moment like that's more of a problem with the people, rather than a problem with the science behind the vaccines. In fact, I wager if Trump were sitting as president and forcing vaccine mandates, we would see a complete reversal of public opinion among half the US population. That doesn't make anything right, but sheds light on how this has become a demarcation of political allegiance above all else.
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:48 am

LOl ... no such thing as germ theory?

Okay.

if you've kept animals or grown plants for crops then you've probably seen an infection move thru a population, sometimes you can treat these things with known treatments for bacteria or viruses. Sometimes you can isolate things early and stop the spread.

if you've played in a sporting team, especially winter sport and especially for years then you would have seen one person get sick the same symptoms move thru your team and experienced them yourself at least once.

These observations are explained by germ theory and not explained by whatever those "no such thing as germ theory" people bang on about.

You can take anti biotics and wipe out your gut bacteria and feel like shit for a while, then eat the appropriate yoghurt and feel good again., Next time you take anti biotics you learn and have the yogurt straight away, missing out on the period of dodgy guts. How do the "no such thing as germ theory" mob explain that?
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:49 am

JH wrote:These observations are explained by germ theory and not explained by whatever those "no such thing as germ theory" people bang on about.

You admit you have not the slightest clue about how they explain these observations, yet you assert with your trademark empty bluster that their explanations do not work.

How do the "no such thing as germ theory" mob explain that?


1. Of course they do not deny that there is such a thing as germ theory; they argue that that theory does not explain the phenomena.

2. To find out how they themselves explain these phenomena, you might take the extraordinary first step of actually reading and listening to their arguments. Or (much more likely) you might just LOL instead, impressively.

3. If it's a mob you're looking for, you don't have far to look. You can easily find millions of fanatical cult followers of TheScience™ (the kiddie-maskers, the gene-fiddlers), who have moved on from merely LOLing at heretics and dissenters to actually persecuting them.

LOl.


Aye. Well, you would, wouldn't you..
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Re: "Viruses": Tiny Invisible Airborne Killer-Dots. (Really?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:48 am

Okay then clever clogs, how do they explain away TB?
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