Uvalde (& Mass shooting events - root causes, etc.)

[DrEvil]

Justin Trudeau introduces strict gun control on handguns in Canada
"Other than using firearms for sport shooting and hunting, there is no reason anyone in Canada should need guns in their everyday lives."

I despise the man, but on this he's not wrong. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to have anything else than a hunting rifle and/or a shotgun in their house, and possibly a handgun that's locked in a safe at the gun range where you do sport shooting every weekend (no certified gun club membership, no handgun), plus some exceptions for collectors with strict oversight.

Also no guns to people guilty of violent crime, especially domestic violence, and a licensing process to prove you're fit to own a gun (background check, mental health, proficiency test), same way you have to prove you're fit and able to drive a car before you get a license to actually drive one.

And no public carry, whatsoever. The only valid reason to have a gun with you should be that you're on the way to a hunting trip or the range, and it should be unloaded and in a case/bag in the trunk of your car.

[streeb]

But guns aren't a problem in Canada. Aggressive government authoritarianism pretending to deal in the most sanctimonious terms with fictional problems is a huge problem in Canada.

[drstrangelove]

A few months ago I went to the supermarket and purchased a pair of scissors. The automatic check-out machine prompted the attendant to confirm I was of legal purchasing age. Soon, the only thing left to quarrel over will be muscle mass. Gym memberships can be licensed along with concealed carry for long-sleeved shirts. Public spaces can be safe spaces with a safepass validated by estrogen shots. In fact, removing guns renders those most vulnerable even more so to muscle violence. To remove gun-defense is to accept women being subjected to the will of a rapist armed with muscles. See once we create a safe society, the next step must be an equal one. Safety. Equality. Equality + Safety = Equality of Safety. You don't believe people women children should have equal safety? What do you need muscle for in an automated society? Soon you won't even need your nerve.

[DrEvil]

The only way to stop a suicide bomber is a good guy with a suicide vest.

[Wombaticus Rex]

This has been little discussed in massive Uvalde discourse:

Via Kens5

The boy and four others hid under a table that had a tablecloth over it, which may have shielded them from the shooter's view and saved their lives. The boy shared heartbreaking details about what happened in that room.

“When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”

And currently:

Via Texas Tribune

The official response to the mass shooting at an Uvalde elementary school — a response already marred by shifting narratives, finger-pointing and a general lack of timely and accurate information — took a further turn toward dysfunction on Tuesday.

The Uvalde school district’s police chief — who made the decision to wait for more resources rather than confront the gunman sooner — has stopped cooperating with state investigators and had not responded to requests for information for over two days, the Texas Department of Public Safety said.

And the agency walked back an assertion that a teacher at Robb Elementary School propped open a back door prior to the shooting, allowing the gunman to enter and kill 19 students and two teachers. Earlier Tuesday the teacher’s lawyer had pushed back on the state’s account.

"Walked back" is such a gloriously social collapse credibility death spiral kinda euphemism.

"We lied, you caught us, our bad, we're calling a mulligan, here. Let's do this again from the top."

[Belligerent Savant]

.

The actual means by which the shooter gained entry is a critical piece of information. I suspect the actual truth of it would open a Pandora's Box. As such, it will never see the light of day.

We're long past time to bring back the guillotines. There's a long line of worthwhile candidates, starting in earnest from ~2020 - onward.

[Belligerent Savant]

Meanwhile..

BREAKING: Uvalde ISD Police Chief Pete Arredondo, man who hasn’t been seen publicly since the day of the massacre where he ordered officers to stand-down, has been sworn in as a city council member behind closed doors, the Mayor says.

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/ ... jBIPQqL9Uw

[DrEvil]

But guns aren't a problem in Canada. Aggressive government authoritarianism pretending to deal in the most sanctimonious terms with fictional problems is a huge problem in Canada.

Sorry, I didn't mean for Canada specifically, but gun laws in general, and especially the US. The suggested laws I described is what we have here in Norway right now, and they seem to work well. Plenty of people have guns (almost 30 guns per 100 people), but it's almost all hunting rifles and shotguns. The place I live has 1700 people total, spread over 5 tiny villages, and we have two "proper" shooting ranges, one large outdoor one for tournaments and one smaller indoor one for the kids, plus a handful of smaller ranges for individual farm clusters, and that's pretty standard. Hearing gunfire is a completely normal thing around here.

The main difference with the US I think is that you don't get a gun unless you have a good reason for it. You have to show that you actually need it for some specific activity, which usually boils down to hunting, sport or farm work. Self defense is not a valid reason. Even saying it out loud will get you funny looks.

I realize the US is wildly different in many aspects, but every time I see someone bring up the tyrannical government bogeyman I roll my eyes. First off: your AR-15 isn't going to do shit against a SWAT team in a military issue APC with drone oversight and snipers in the treeline, and second: what makes people think the people with guns will be on their side if it hits the fan? A good chunk of them will probably sign up with the government to help round up the POCs, libtards, commies and gays, or if they're opposed to the government, wage guerilla warfare against the POCs, libtards, commies and gays.

[DrEvil]

Meanwhile..

BREAKING: Uvalde ISD Police Chief Pete Arredondo, man who hasn’t been seen publicly since the day of the massacre where he ordered officers to stand-down, has been sworn in as a city council member behind closed doors, the Mayor says.

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/ ... jBIPQqL9Uw

Does being on the city council afford him any extra legal protections from the lawsuits that are sure to be incoming?

[Wombaticus Rex]

I realize the US is wildly different in many aspects, but every time I see someone bring up the tyrannical government bogeyman I roll my eyes. First off: your AR-15 isn't going to do shit against a SWAT team in a military issue APC with drone oversight and snipers in the treeline,

It is not an individual deterrent; it is a collective deterrent. As we saw during the heights of COVID emergency paranoia, "martial law" is more of a theory than a practice. Government lacks to the force projection to actively police 300 million just like the military lacked the force projection to actively police 40 million Iraqis and 40 million Afghans.

and second: what makes people think the people with guns will be on their side if it hits the fan? A good chunk of them will probably sign up with the government to help round up the POCs, libtards, commies and gays, or if they're opposed to the government, wage guerilla warfare against the POCs, libtards, commies and gays.

Between the POCs, libtards, commies and gays, you have near-majority of the US population. What they share with their political opposition is the notion they are uniquely persecuted by a state that finds all of them to be equally exasperating liabilities.

Regardless. Any iteration of "hits the fan" will be an immediate reversion to primary loyalties driving the formation of local militias which will draw heavily from law enforcement, cartels and military since all three have access to the necessary equipment, experience with deploying it effectively, and existing networks for force projection. If you would prefer to be unarmed through such a juncture, I find that interesting.

Mad Max / Dmitry Orlov fantasy football aside, the much more plausible scenario is an increase in political violence (some of it even occurring without FBI assistance!) while society as a whole continues to function normally since everyone has bills to pay. Drone bombing a compound in Texas or mowing down protestors in Oklahoma would come with steep and immediate consequences. The state machinery that makes the force projection possible runs on human beings who have real problems with killing their own people, and that machinery would be on strike, overtly and covertly, very quickly.

Just like "martial law," these narratives are bluffs and American history, near and far, makes it clear that homesteaders, ranchers, militias, and good old fashioned kooks willing to die for their front porch are not bluffing at all.

Ultimately the only path forward your side has is to keep cranking up the propaganda, capturing the institutions, and waiting for stubborn maniacs like me to simply die off over time. The future is yours.

[Belligerent Savant]

Just like "martial law," these narratives are bluffs and American history, near and far, makes it clear that homesteaders, ranchers, militias, and good old fashioned kooks willing to die for their front porch are not bluffing at all.

Yes. and their numbers are growing, particularly over the last ~2 yrs. More humans will seek out the analog, off-grid life and its variations as the propagandized life becomes increasingly and more overtly devoid of mirth.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Does being on the city council afford him any extra legal protections from the lawsuits that are sure to be incoming?

Pete Arredondo was elected to the city council of Uvalde on May 7th, so the move is not a response to the massacre; the secret ceremony definitely is, though.

The only extra legal protection involved is that they can have closed meetings. If anything, they may be on the hook to help with his legal fees, plus they'll be squarely in the sights of state and federal investigations so who knows what else will get shaken loose for leverage.

[Joe Hillshoist]

.
Current info available Re: details leading up to and timeframe during the shooting are perplexing and inexplicable.

Any info on how he entered the school? Schools in my area are locked at all times; every visitor has to press a button and announce themselves via intercom before they're buzzed in. Wouldn't this school be similar, or is TX/this district less secure? Will need to look into that.

In any event, if there was shooting outside the school minutes before entry, why wouldn't the doors have been locked at that point, if not already? Who would let anyone in if they heard shooting/commotion outside? Did the shooter break the door open somehow?

Schools in your area are like detention centres or prisons?

Wow.

(BTW I'm reading this thread at once so apologies if i'm all over the joint.)

[Joe Hillshoist]

And could armed citizens prevent that kind of random violence? Well, yes. It does happen, and in fact it happened just this week in West Virginia, to far less fanfare. So disarming citizens will result in deaths, too. That will be considered an acceptable cost, too, worth the price, a necessary sacrifice.

When Jared Lee Loungher shot those people in Arizona apparently there were multiple armed. trained people carrying weapons in the crowd and none fired their weapons because they didn't have a clear shot at him that wouldn't risk other people around him. I heard that years ago, reading about that shooting in the context of tactical decision making iirc. But it was a decade ago so that context could have been anything.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Justin Trudeau introduces strict gun control on handguns in Canada
"Other than using firearms for sport shooting and hunting, there is no reason anyone in Canada should need guns in their everyday lives."

I despise the man, but on this he's not wrong. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to have anything else than a hunting rifle and/or a shotgun in their house, and possibly a handgun that's locked in a safe at the gun range where you do sport shooting every weekend (no certified gun club membership, no handgun), plus some exceptions for collectors with strict oversight.

Also no guns to people guilty of violent crime, especially domestic violence, and a licensing process to prove you're fit to own a gun (background check, mental health, proficiency test), same way you have to prove you're fit and able to drive a car before you get a license to actually drive one.

And no public carry, whatsoever. The only valid reason to have a gun with you should be that you're on the way to a hunting trip or the range, and it should be unloaded and in a case/bag in the trunk of your car.

Do they have wild pigs in canada? Or other large dangerous animals? Packs of wild dogs etc etc.

Its not really hunting, more vermin control. If you have land with bush on it in Australia at some point you need to deal with those things. I'd rather shoot wild dogs than leave out 10-80.