SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:58 pm

Belligerent Savant » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:00 am wrote:dude - you're talking 'post graduate' level topics while a percentage here insist on remaining on surface-level interpretations of the grand chessboard.

[cue rolling of the eyes, partially merited]

Futile to touch on things 2,3 levels deep when there remains plenty of interest on the surface level diversions (with a couple exceptions in these first 2 pages) that continue to lure and snag so many. The Politico piece seemed necessary, at that point, given the comment(s) that preceded it. There was a time when such a piece wasn't warranted here, as the discourse was already thinking behind the scenes.

Seems there's been a bit of regression. Consistent with the current zeitgeist, after all.


My argument was that this isn't part of the grand chessboard, so it doesn't require any interpretations in that regard, it's part of the republican party's regular size chessboard, and they've been telling you for decades what moves they want to make. All of this has been out in the open the whole time, so all the interpretation you need is right there: they said they wanted to do it, then they did it.

There's no 4D chess* being played here.

* I think it was brekin(?) who pointed out that time is the fourth dimension, so 4D chess is just regular chess.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:49 am

.

The horde organized for city-sacking under the banner of Sack the City finally sacks the city exactly in the way we have been watching their leaders announce they will for fifty years.

It's such a mystery why this happened. Will we ever get to the bottom of it?

But let's avoid hasty and superficial conclusions, okay? For example, do not make the mistake of following the money actually paying for this. Let's follow the other money, the same money we always follow, even though it didn't pay for this, because our own version of the Holy Book says the answers to every question will always be found there.

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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby kelley » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:53 pm

I’m fifty eight, for another couple of weeks at least. More than any other, Roe has been the defining issue of my life and of those I love.

That which commenced in the Reagan era, of which I'm a product, found its illogical yet inevitable conclusion in the Trump administration. The two presidencies may clearly be seen now as the bookends of a frightful moment in American history, with a worldview consolidated in the opinions of the Roberts court.

Bodily autonomy, to my ears, sounds like an abstraction made for the sake of argument. It’s not a position I’d choose to assume. Frankly, of all things, it reminds me of Mike Tyson’s notorious quip about the stunning immediacy of violence— everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. The court’s recent decision feels, to me, exactly like that. Strategy, tactics, debate, years of vigilance, protest, and action have all been for naught.

There are a dozen ways this outcome could have been prevented, and while it was not, I still don’t believe any of this to have been "political" in any typical way. Symbolic, yes, and social, certainly, but in concrete terms, one can map the reactionary sea-change the nation underwent by following that which Roe brought in its wake. In 2022, this change, now become law, represents nothing less than the destruction of two hundred-plus years of human endeavor.

I understand modernity as reaching back to the fifteenth century. An outline of liberty was expressed in the eighteenth. In my lifetime, the ruthless dismantling of these ideals began in earnest following Roe, and now it’s finally and unequivocally complete. Finished. All which likely follows will be a mere reiteration of this awareness, or of these facts, which, as noted, had been coming for years.

I watched “The Baader Meinhof Complex” again last night— I mean, why not, it was late, and I live in the countryside now— and Gudrun Ensslin’s pragmatic expression of despair, “Hope is for theologians”, hit very hard. The film proceeded to then show her and her comrades dead in their cells.

This is where all will eventually lead. Our prison has just gotten alot bigger, and there are myriad ways for us to be killed in it, or to choose to kill ourselves in defiance of lockdown.

Bodily autonomy, indeed. The pursuit of happiness? A life without liberty isn't one worth living. It's arguably not life at all. The left in America makes a thousand mistakes every day, but framing the debates which Roe created around the question of "life", with religious fanaticism subsequently dragged into it, has been the most grievous political error possibly ever made in the history of humankind.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe V Wade

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:27 pm

Kelly wrote:
"this decision is the first step in overturning the civil rights legacy going back to '64"


JackRiddler » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:05 pm wrote:.

Yes, iam, but remember this goes by state. It is now illegal and criminal (sometimes with incredible penalties!) in those states that have already passed laws to automatically render it illegal as soon as the SC decides to overturn Roe, as it did in the ruling issued today. Other states may now pass laws to do the same. Otherwise it remains legal in New York (I mention as my own state) and, for now, about 30 other states (I think) where the majority of U.S. people live.

Very fucked up. Human beings commandeered into forced breeders on the command of a state, at pain of potential life imprisonment if they do not comply (or are found to have visited another state for the procedure). Why? Because of a pretty much invented religious doctrine forced on the majority who do not subscribe to it, in violation of separation of church and state. (Of course it shouldn't matter whether it's a majority or minority who don't share this belief.) Of course, also because of other motives that can be summed up as patriarchy and an atavistic understanding of capitalism as demanding natalism.

It's kind of an ultimate in violating freedom and rights, yet it's not something that's taken too seriously by many on this board, unfortunately. I've seen more than a few posts recently along the lines that some "debate" about abortion is just part of stoking up "culture war" to "artificially" divide "us." By that logic, it's suspect to even mention such Democratic-oriented trivia as abortion rights, because it hurts the theocratic fanatics who might otherwise become our essential allies against the real Big Bads of finance and imperialism, etc.

In keeping with that idea, there were those who were more interested in the source of the leak last month, knowing, just knowing by the magic POOMA method, that it could not be an angry intern, or perhaps Alito himself looking to defuse the anger in advance. No, it had to be, could only be, the product of a high-level mastermind conspiracy seeking to divide "us" along these useless culture-war lines.

And of course this echoes the right-wing damage-control against the popular anger caused by the news that Roe was about to be overturned, which was to try to distract by making the leak (of something that predictably became official a month later) into the main issue. The leak, in fact, was supposed to be some kind of ephochal violation, far greater than the violation of the rights of 170 million women. (Tangentially, I remembered, as I often do, that 10 years ago this board was awash in posts about how Assange had to be one of THEM since the Wikileaks leaks weren't magically satisfying everyone's desire to hear confirmation of one's preferred conspiracy, and therefore must have been cooked up wholesale as distraction or limited hangout, etc. etc.)

Also, I saw some sophistry along the lines of golly gee, person X could have been aborted and look at what a remarkable and worthy life they lived! Which is Hollywood stuff, because it could be true of ANYONE, anyone at all. It's completely arbitrary which story is constructed and presented as worth telling as if it is making a meaningful general point. (Golly gee, person X could have been run over... bombed by drone... died from this disease or that cause of malnutrition... etc. etc. For that matter, Golly gee, mass murderer Y could have been aborted thus saving all those lives... etc. etc.) Totally irrelevant to the issue. Sentimentalist religion-tinged bullshit, in some cases perhaps presented by those who don't have the balls to just say that they really are thinking, no, women should not have bodily autonomy, their wombs should be under the control of their men and/or the state.

The issue is about bodily autonomy and it is as fundamental as or more fundamental than anything else that has ever been seen as belonging to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The fact is that none of the currently 90+ percent boys on this forum condemning Covid vaccine mandates (as they SHOULD, by the way, no false binaries here) would, if they were female but otherwise basically the same fellows, see this as anything other than far worse, especially if they were of child-bearing age. Forced breeding is the most egregious conceivable violation this side of chattel slavery, the Guantanamo treatment, or straight-up murder. In addition, the revocation of rights is to be perpetrated on the majority of humans within these jurisdictions, but somehow this is supposed to be some kind of specialized interest.

[added after cross post with kelley] It's more like the fifteenth or 25th step, at this point. How do we not see Bush v. Gore as the granddaddy? Absolutely anything goes, after that travesty. Buckley v. Valeo was back in the 1970s, setting up the nuclear bomb version that is Citizens United in 2011 or so. The voting rights act was largely gutted by the Roberts court about 10 years ago. Yes, paradoxically, they can sometimes find against the trend, as with the gay marriage ruling, but there's no doubt where the preponderance of the direction lies. All kinds of voter suppression and gerrymandering moves have been accepted by courts, though some have been rejected. As you may know, this court just in the last couple of days finished off Miranda. A lower court just found that anti-BDS laws are constitutional. How do you think that and all the other new censorship laws are going to do, once they get to the highest court?

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Kelly, 1964 is notable because the civil rights bill was signed into law by Johnson. Today's radical right wing wants eliminate all Democrat policies and legislation enacted since the uncivilized civil war. That's deeper in reach and impact than simply continuing to dismantle FDR's New Deal.

Jack, I'm well aware of the immediate and longer termed ramifications. Just wanted to quickly post the news
here (15 minutes after scotus published it. Nancy Northup and I have been friends for 40 years, which matters not.

What does astonish me about scotus 2 decisions, the regulation of concealed carry by the state, overturning long accepted precedent, claiming such practice now violates the 2nd A. In the gun case scotus took away a state's right to regulate firearms, something they affirmed in Heller, was the right of every state. The overturning of Roe, too, took away states rights, but took so much more, it's unbelievable.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the court's hypocrisy is blatant, arguing one point as justification for their decision giving states new rights and in the other case, arguing to take them away.

As a man I feel my opinion shouldn't matter at all. I believe contemplating an abortion must be one of the greatest of weighty decisions a woman could be confronted with. Abortion, contraception, these are private matters and we used to have a right to our privacy.

Women couldn't have their own credit. Only a husband's name could appear on a deed. It was only 110 years ago women were considered "property."

This court was brought in to serve the conservative Christian right, and looks to keep it going for the next 30 or 40 years.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:49 pm

This court was brought in to serve the conservative Christian right

I remain in awe whenever I see a take like this in RI. Perhaps I'm too much of an optimist, in that I foolishly believe -- particularly now, with all that we've observed to this point, in 2022 -- that some will begin to look beyond the standard tropes, because clearly the standard tropes simply don't suffice anymore as viable explanations. Indeed, it should be clearer now that outward narratives are presented to obfuscate underling motives.

But no. The standard narratives continue to be accepted at face value.

Not for much longer, though -- not at the continued expedited rate of Empire entropy.

Also:
As a man I feel my opinion shouldn't matter at all.


As a father of daughters I see this as a foolish take, to say the very least. The further one deconstructs this position the more foolish it becomes.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:55 pm

So why did Trump stack the court with religious conservatives (after promising to stack the court with religious conservatives to overturn Roe v. Wade)?
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:55 pm

.
This is a bit of a ramble, and yet only broad strokes. And much of this is nothing more than intuition, rumination, and interpretation of materials I've encountered out in the wild (reading materials or real-world observations), all subject to change and error:

One of the 'popular' conclusions in dominant narrative talking points is that this overturn is primarily or almost exclusively driven by the "christian conservative" mindset of the justices involved. And it was only made possible due to Trump's appointments.

If you haven't read the overturn ruling, I recommend dedicating some time parsing through it. I see no hint of "Christian" overtones. One can argue the justices involved are perhaps staunch 'Constitutionalists', given the primary driver in their decision, ostensibly, was to turn it over to the States to determine policy/legislation on this topic.

Here it is:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... cision.pdf

One either believes U.S. Presidents -- particularly since the removal of JFK -- have agency/autonomy in key decisions, or otherwise they are captured/compromised to various degrees. Perspectives/opinions on this may vary -- and none of us here will have any 'proof' one way or another -- but to me, few if any of the key events over the past ~2 yrs in particular have occurred in a vacuum/solely driven by the decisions/actions of a front-facing 'leader'.

The compromise/capture of U.S. leadership has arguably reached its nadir in 2022 with what essentially amounts to a malfunctioning meat puppet at the podium presenting as a 'national leader'. Trump was no doubt compromised as well, but his ego made him less manageable for the agendas to follow post-2020.

I for one do not subscribe to the notion that current circumstances are simply the result of appointments made by a sitting President.

Since 2021, the notion of bodily autonomy is being challenged more overtly with: vaccine mandates; marked increase in heavy promotion of 'gender fluid' advocacy & encouragement of teenage sexual organ removal/hormone infusions; and now in 2022 with the resurfacing and overturn of Roe v Wade (which redirects abortion policies/legislation to the States).

I don't believe the timing of these recent events are mere happenstance. They appear to be part of incremental conditioning, years in development, to soften notions of individual agency over one's body and related privacy/civil rights (Digital IDs are also within this umbrella).

None of the above requires a 'grand conspiracy'; compartmentalizing agendas into 'need to know' info mgmt can be very effective, and will vary depending on social status/position.

(I realize I'm rehashing basics here -- for some reason I feel the need to do so. A few of you may roll your eyes, understandably)

It's one of the primary reasons young men/women enlist to "fight for freedom" (rather than resource/land/power grabs);
It's how many involved (as 'compliance' auditors, etc.) in current ESG initiatives earnestly believe they're doing it to help minimize 'climate change' harms;
It's how entities leverage the zeal of true believers to commit vile acts on behalf of their religion (for the praise of Allah or their Christian god -- and more recently, "The Science" as secular religion, utilizing the conditioned dogma/zeal of those blindly trusting the experts/"The Science").
Etc...

And also, perhaps even more critical: politicians, judges, attorneys, bureaucrats are incentivized by the lure of increased power/influence, or otherwise lobby/special interest money, or otherwise bribed/threatened (see Epstein's M.O. as only 1 example) to ensure they play along.

Useful idiots abound.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:02 pm

You don't say.

You still haven't addressed that this was in the works for literally decades before covid or gender fluidity (and how is that part of challenging bodily autonomy? I seem to remember you arguing the kids have too much autonomy when it comes to gender) was even a blip on the radar. Trump promised evangelical Christians that he would appoint judges to overturn Roe v. Wade. He got the job, appointed conservative Christian judges, and they overturned Roe v. Wade.

Sometimes things are exactly what they look like (no, really). There's no mystery here. Evangelicals have been wanting to ban abortions for ages, and they finally got what they wanted.

I don't know about you, but when someone tells me over and over that they want to do a specific thing, and explain in detail why, and then get the opportunity to do that thing and go ahead and do it, I usually feel like I have a pretty good grasp of why they did what they did. I don't immediately start looking for hidden motives to explain it, because the explanation is right there in my face.

And I forgot to comment on this part of your previous post:

As a man I feel my opinion shouldn't matter at all.


As a father of daughters I see this as a foolish take, to say the very least. The further one deconstructs this position the more foolish it becomes.


I'm hoping that's not what you meant, but it sounds like you want to have a say in your future adult children's bodily autonomy.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:05 am

.
I've nothing more to add to this conversation. Believe whatever you choose to believe as to root causes.


As far as this:

DrEvil » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:02 pm wrote:
As a man I feel my opinion shouldn't matter at all.


As a father of daughters I see this as a foolish take, to say the very least. The further one deconstructs this position the more foolish it becomes.


I'm hoping that's not what you meant, but it sounds like you want to have a say in your future adult children's bodily autonomy.


Nothing I typed suggested this. Nothing I typed @ RI indicates I'm inconsistent in my views on bodily autonomy.

I'm saying I'm a parent of daughters, and the topic is of interest to me, and to suggest my "opinion shouldn't matter at all" is an exceedingly narrow view, in my opinion.

You're not a parent, right? Your best bet is to refrain from commenting on parenthood. I sure as hell have no interest or inclination to explain my parenting to someone in an internet forum who has absolutely ZERO context or visibility into who I am outside the limited confines of this space.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:41 pm

I'm running out of ways to say this. It's got nothing to do with belief, ffs. They said what they were going to do, then did it. How hard is that to wrap your head around?
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:29 pm

My sincere take on this is that it is yet another sure and particularly tragic sign of an empire collapsing.

The only thing those in "control" excel at (other than looting) is pitting the plebes against each other.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:17 pm

But this isn't about pitting the plebes against each other, at least not as an orchestrated plan from above, it's about the conservatives doing exactly what they always wanted to do. That obviously pits a lot of plebes against them, but it's not a manufactured divide, it's a real one.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:37 am

DrEvil » 13 Jul 2022 21:17 wrote:But this isn't about pitting the plebes against each other, at least not as an orchestrated plan from above, it's about the conservatives doing exactly what they always wanted to do. That obviously pits a lot of plebes against them, but it's not a manufactured divide, it's a real one.


I am not sure that I get your point. Are you actually saying that culture war issues are somehow "real" in a way that elites' clearly pitting people against each other using culture war issues are not?
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby DrEvil » Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:48 pm

I'm saying that there is a real culture war going on, no elite button pushing required, and this is one of the results.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:07 pm

DrEvil » 14 Jul 2022 18:48 wrote:I'm saying that there is a real culture war going on, no elite button pushing required, and this is one of the results.


Sure, there is a real culture war going on, and sure this is the definite result of this.

But if you think that the people actually in power (you know, the ones that all of the politicians carry water for) truly care about this issue in the same principled way that I, and you, and all the other cultural warriors on both sides of this issue who they manipulate do, you have another guess coming.

They will get abortions on demand for their family members. And they will also get their precious life extending bodily fluids, whether from fetuses or infants. So this issue is only meaningful to them in terms of conquering by dividing.
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