SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby liminalOyster » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:46 am

Belligerent Savant » Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:08 pm wrote:How many female -- and male -- nurses and health care workers, or otherwise working class people of all races, gender, creeds have lost their livelihoods, and a fair amount their good health as well, due to vaccine mandates?



In the US? Likely not a whole lot, actually. A few states did come down hard on religious exemptions for vaccine mandates but most did not. And the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) specifically told inspectors not to investigate religious exemptions.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:58 am

.

That's flat wrong. I'd say I'm surprised at this response. But I'm not.

Most hospitals have a vaccine mandate in place. [...]

[MOVED TO THE MAIN COVID THREAD.]

[Discussion on this subject can continue there. - MOD]
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:20 am

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT VACCINE MANDATES.

BS's post has been moved to the Main Covid thread.

Posts exclusively about vaccine mandates, or not primarily about the subject of this thread, can be posted in one of the many, many Covid-centered threads.

The comparison of the issues, forcing women to breed against their will and forcing people to take dubious shots as a condition of continued employment, has been made. Pretty much no one here has objected or debated it, except regarding the relative severity of the violation of bodily autonomy. There has been no debate here about the principle. Further flooding of this thread with American Dream-style acres of diversionary copy pasta will be penalized.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Harvey » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:22 pm

For the record BS is not spamming. If anything, BS is providing a public service. A long way from our friend American Dream. Jack, are you able to admit that you are as bent out of shape as everyone else?
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:23 pm

I'm pretty bent and mad as a hatter, but if it ever gets me worried I compare myself to the norm and discover I'm doing rather better than most.

There are many threads about BS's preferred issues on this board. It is not an unreasonable request for him not to derail this one into yet another. It's simple to just link to a relevant thread and continue there.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby liminalOyster » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:52 am

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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:17 am

.

how are "near total" and "6 week bans" defined? I imagine I can look this up.

Here, the near-total abortion ban in Oklahoma, for example, which is the most restrictive, reportedly:

The Republican-backed legislation bans abortion from the moment of "fertilization," making exceptions only in cases of medical emergency, rape or incest. The bill text says it does not prohibit the use of contraception or emergency contraception.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/oklaho ... 022-05-19/
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Light Revision in the Cause of Consistency

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:54 am

Notwithstanding the unintended drawbacks of maximalist rhetoric in building alliances (even at times when it is true), I agree with the substance of both the linked original of the following and my red-marked revision.

Belligerent Savant » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:21 pm wrote:That any mandates [to force women to give birth] exist currently, and have existed at all, is the crime against humanity here. That they are no longer [not yet] as pervasive does NOT excuse or diminish the gravity of the grievous harms committed by mandates and lockdowns [prison sentences for miscarriages].
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:16 pm

.
Once more, there's no objection with the spirit of your message, however your edits showcase that much of what may transpire remains TBD Re: state-based abortion laws, and in most instances will not be as extreme as you outline (and if so, will only impact a small count of states).

But assuming even the most extreme scenario, no one here has objection to these clear concerns (far as I've seen). My primary point is that for most of the last 2 years we actually EXPERIENCED and endured wide-scale lockdowns and egregiously unethical mandates, that still exist TODAY, that affect far more people than the extreme end of the more restrictive abortion legislation, most of which are not yet formalized, though of course should be challenged.

Further, broadly speaking, those most vocal about these abortion issues tend to be relatively silent on the issue of mandates/lockdowns (though there is a vocal and growing contingent getting nosier as time passes), or are otherwise passive in comparison (OR, they implicitly don't have much problem with some of it due to certain sentiment that, with each passing month, is increasingly tenuous, e.g. the notion that protection from prior infection is 'fake news', as one example. I've experienced far more egregious examples of blatant hypocrisy out in the wild, in everyday conversations).

(Mandates negatively impact humans everywhere at every state, all over the world, because the fucking govts pulled the parlor trick of turning enforcement over to employers, who largely dutifully complied; it's not relegated to States only, though some blue states have been more restrictive Re: mandates/lockdowns than others).

Anyway, to avoid derailing once more (though it was you that took a quote from that other thread and brought it here):

My point, once more, is that: the issue of bodily autonomy is not being consistently applied by those that claim to be the most vocal critics of bodily autonomy (I'm speaking broadly here, not specific to sentiment in RI, per se, though it is also applicable to a degree in this forum). They are eager to voice opposition on the abortion issue, but otherwise do not display nearly as much passion on the mandate issues. Further, the latter negatively impacts far more people in total (their livelihoods, and yes, THEIR LIVES as well). Again, I point this out not to attribute a value, necessarily, to either topic, but clearly one of these issues have negatively impacted far more people but does not, generally, have the same reaction by those that historically have clamored for human rights.

Edit to add: it's their prerogative, to be clear, to apply passion in whatever modulation they prefer, on a given topic. What gets a bit frustrating, however, is that once the onion layers get peeled back one by one, it generally becomes clear that much of the variance is due to inconsistent approach to core concepts (such as bodily autonomy, human rights, etc.), often among those that historically were far more consistent in this regard.

Clearly, part of the problem here is that one of these topics is championed by both the establishment democratic party as well as progressives, while the other topic -- mandates, lockdowns -- have been either quietly accepted and/or clamored for by too many within those same groups. They have been largely conditioned and/or conned.

(of course, those on the 'Right' that believe Trump is their savior and/or subscribe to some of the more extreme aspects of covid-related policies -- though frankly right now it's understandable to assume the worst, given all we've observed to date -- and also tend to have more extreme takes on abortion, are similarly deluded to various degrees. As with all charged topics, there are myriad poisoned wells, limited hangouts, etc. Caveat Lector applies, always. We're all susceptible to it. I never claimed otherwise. Though there are blatant examples of egregious overreach that are apparent to any sober observer)
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:56 pm

Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:16 am wrote:.
Once more, there's no objection with the spirit of your message, however your edits showcase that much of what may transpire remains TBD Re: state-based abortion laws, and in most instances will not be as extreme as you outline (and if so, will only impact a small count of states).


It doesn't fucking matter how "extreme" they "will" be. The atrocity you're trying to suggest above is somehow not as extreme as believed is already beyond any pale. Any state intervention in attempting to force a woman to carry to term against her will is extreme. Think of the conniptions you go through in regard to the vaccine mandates, think of how you go nuclear over any kind of relativization much less than what you are trying to do for Oklahoma above. Since when do you sit and parse the bullshit language used to justify the Pfizer booster mandates for three-and-a-half screens worth of verbiage? It is really revealing. Is it as simple that it's zero chance it will ever be you having a probe shoved up your vagina, or being subjected to a forced Christianist indoctrination speech as part of the process mandated by many states long before the extremists on the SC got their no-challenge majority and started going wild on this? Incredible!

Further, broadly speaking, those most vocal about these abortion issues tend to be relatively silent on the issue of mandates/lockdowns (though there is a vocal and growing contingent getting nosier as time passes), or are otherwise passive in comparison...


First, it is irrelevant. They can be right about reproductive rights and wrong about mandates. They can be wrong for all the wrong reasons. They're still right about reproductive rights. Second, once again, it is triply irrelevant here. You go on and on about it as if anyone here has disagreed with you. And you seem to seek to detect such disagreement in some or other nuance. Meanwhile you yourself look for nuances on one right to bodily autonomy, but do not tolerate it in regard to mandates.

Anyway, I should have known this light approach to it was a bad idea and would set off more of the same. Sorry about that.

.
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:37 pm

.
Stop - I actually have parsed the language/publicly available disclosures via the FDA in some detail Re: Pfizer, moderna, AZ, Novavax, J&J, and Covaxin. While I'm bombastic (at times, and other other times rightfully angry) here in written form, I do my best to view the info from all angles, in part because I know many that were inoculated and came close numerous times to submitting to an injection myself, under duress or otherwise, at various points.

You're now reaching, sir. I have daughters. Abortion is a very important topic, to me, for many reasons. Yes, my focus over the last 2 years have predominantly targeted the egregious harms caused by batshit overreaching covid policy. Surely the madness of the last ~2yrs should be taken into consideration?

Hell, even our former landlord Mr. Wells has been similarly stricken by covid policy overreach, and he's a markedly wiser man than I am.


Belligerent Savant » Wed May 04, 2022 11:42 am wrote:...
I've mentioned this before in passing, though I tend to refrain from sharing too many personal details, but I have daughters, so I certainly believe, firmly, in bodily autonomy. But, in full disclosure, my first daughter was conceived before I was married -- thankfully with someone I intended on marrying -- before I felt I was "ready" to have a child. Abortion was weighed as an option, and it goes without saying we're grateful to have chosen for life. It was the first time I had to seriously deliberate on the topic (and to be clear, it was ultimately my partner's decision to make, NOT mine, and this was conveyed explicitly to her at the time. I was approaching 30 yrs of age) and it opened up thoughts I hadn't considered before, such as, "Is it 'right' for me/my partner to choose abortion simply because we're not 'ready' yet, monetarily, emotionally, to have a child?" And while not applicable in my/my partner's situation: "should there be a limit to how many abortions an individual may have? Are there proactive measures that can be taken, beyond contraceptives?" (and this is where eugenics begins to rear its ugly head, eh? It will be interesting to see how the parameters of this topic may evolve over time by talking heads in the months+ ahead).
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Re: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v Wade

Postby liminalOyster » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:43 pm

Figured this would be a good ice-breaker to finally start talking about Covid vax around here. /s

More trigger bans loom as 1 in 3 women lose most abortion access post-Roe
August 22, 2022

by Editorial staff


Two months after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, about 20.9 million women have lost access to nearly all elective abortions in their home states, and a slate of strict new trigger laws expected to take effect in the coming days will shut out even more.

Texas, Tennessee and Idaho all have existing restrictions on abortion, but the laws slated to begin Thursday will either outlaw the procedure entirely or heighten penalties for doctors who perform an abortion, contributing to a seismic shift in who can access abortion in their home states.

At least 11 other states have banned most abortions, prohibiting the procedure with narrow exceptions from the time of conception or after fetal cardiac activity is detected, at around six weeks of pregnancy, with legislation known as “heartbeat” laws. Five more states have similar bans temporarily blocked by the courts. If those injunctions are lifted, abortion could soon be inaccessible for millions more — in total, 36 percent of U.S. women between the ages of 15 and 44 would be largely unable to obtain an elective abortion in the state where they live.

The rapid pace of change has shocked even the closest observers.

“I just thought there would be a little more time to help providers and patients cope with these changes,” said Elizabeth Nash, who tracks abortion legislation in the states for the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit research center that supports abortion rights. “It was very clear that that sort of grace period was not going to be provided.”

Advocates and doctors in favor of abortion rights fear that the newest trigger laws — which in Texas will carry a potential life sentence for doctors who perform an abortion — will have a chilling effect on helping people who either need an abortion because they are facing life-threatening complications or are trying to travel and get one elsewhere. The stiffer laws come as patients and providers navigate a confusing tangle of policies amid ongoing legal challenges that at times have made abortion accessible one day and completely illegal the next. Even more changes are on the horizon as lawmakers in South Carolina and West Virginia consider new bills during special legislative sessions.

Patients in states like Tennessee have rushed in recent days to try to make last-minute appointments before they lose access to abortion completely — some only to be turned away, ineligible for an abortion because of the state’s “heartbeat” law.

Kaydria, a 28-year-old from Jackson, Miss., started researching the changing abortion laws as soon as she found out she was pregnant in mid-August. With abortion already banned in her home state, she decided to drive three hours to Memphis.

She knew she’d have to hurry: On Aug. 25, all elective abortions would be banned there, too.

“I needed to go ahead and take care of it,” said Kaydria, who spoke on the condition that only her first name be used to protect her privacy. “I knew I didn’t have time.”

‘A very confusing landscape’

Roughly 14 states have bans outlawing most abortions, with varying exemptions and penalties for doctors. In all, nearly 21 million — about 1 in 3 girls and women in the United States between the ages of 15 and 44 — have lost access to the procedure, according to U.S. census data.

The states that bar abortion from conception tend to be located in the South and the Midwest, including Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, Missouri and Oklahoma. Wisconsin has conflicting laws that leave the legality of abortion uncertain, but clinics stopped providing abortions in the state after the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision, effectively ending abortion within its borders. Georgia, Idaho, Ohio and Tennessee have bans that begin when fetal cardiac activity can be detected, which can occur before many people realize they are pregnant.

“This has been fast-moving and frightening,” said Melissa Grant, chief operations officer for Carafem, which operates abortion clinics in several states including Tennessee, Georgia, Illinois and the D.C. region.

Antiabortion advocates were jubilant after the high court overturned Roe and are now setting their sights on building on their victory, including measures that would prevent out-of-state travel, remove exemptions for victims of sexual assault and provide legal rights for fetuses.

“When you say, ‘Hey, we want to protect all of our unborn residents,’ you want to make sure that that is effective,” said Peter Breen, the vice president and senior counsel for the Thomas More Society, a conservative legal organization aiming to help state GOP lawmakers enact further restrictions.

Millions more live in states where abortion access remains uncertain as legal challenges wind their way through the courts and lawmakers consider passing new laws. In some states, abortion access has changed day by day as courts have repeatedly blocked and unblocked bans.

North Dakota has an abortion ban from conception that has been temporarily blocked by the courts, but it could go into effect Friday if it is not enjoined this week. South Carolina has a six-week ban that was in effect for weeks until the state Supreme Court temporarily blocked it from being enforced last Wednesday. That same day, a district court judge reinstated a 1973 law that bars abortion after 20 weeks in North Carolina, although the state remains one of the few with first- and second-trimester abortion access in the South, where most of its neighbors have outlawed the procedure.

Three new laws triggered by the Supreme Court’s decision to strike down Roe that are slated to take effect Thursday in Texas, Tennessee and Idaho will stiffen penalties for abortion providers or restrict access to even fewer potential patients.

Immediately after the Supreme Court’s decision in June, abortion was almost completely outlawed in Texas under a statute that predated Roe, and clinics closed their doors to patients.

On top of those restrictions, Texas legislators passed a trigger law in 2021 that makes providing an abortion a first-degree felony, which can result in a life sentence, and raises the civil penalty to a $100,000 fine. There are no exceptions for rape or incest in the Texas abortion ban.

“The criminal penalties will further chill the provision of care to women who need it,” said Elisabeth Smith, director of state policy and advocacy for the Center for Reproductive Rights, a legal advocacy organization that represented the clinic at the center of the Supreme Court case.

In Idaho, the state’s “heartbeat” ban on abortion went into effect this month. Now a near-total abortion ban is expected to kick in, further limiting abortion access and imposing criminal penalties of up to five years’ imprisonment on providers. The ban slated to take effect Thursday includes exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the pregnant person — but not when their health is at risk.

The Justice Department has filed a lawsuit against the ban, arguing that the state’s law violates a federal requirement to provide medical care when a patient’s life or health is at stake. A federal judge said he would issue his opinion by Wednesday.

“It’s a very confusing landscape,” said Caitlin Gustafson, a family physician and abortion provider in rural Idaho, who is suing the state over three different abortion laws that took effect at different times after the Supreme Court struck down Roe.

Tennessee will also see a trigger law completely ban abortion Thursday — with no exception for victims of rape or incest.

‘A generational push’

For some antiabortion activists, the current restrictions in many states do not go far enough, and they are itching to narrow the limited exceptions for victims of rape and incest as soon as politically possible.

“I drafted the heartbeat law, and it was a tough pill to swallow when we had to make that compromise to create the exceptions for rape and incest,” said Blaine Conzatti, the president of the Idaho Family Policy Center. “And so that’s something that I would like to fix in the future.”

Yet he acknowledged that doing so will probably be an uphill battle — even in Idaho, where Republicans control both the governor’s office and the legislature.

“I think that’s going to be a generational push,” Conzatti said, adding that it will take time to convince some reluctant lawmakers as well those who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a key constituency that supports some exceptions in the cases of rape and incest.

Republican state Rep. Brent Crane, chairman of the Idaho House committee overseeing abortion legislation, said he isn’t planning on pushing bills further restricting abortion in the upcoming session, believing the state needs to move “slowly and deliberately.” He said he’s comfortable with the current exemptions in the law and predicted that if removing the exception for rape and incest were brought up, it would not pass his panel.

Even in some Republican strongholds, antiabortion lawmakers and activists have run into opposition in trying to push through no-exemption bans, finding there is a limit to how far even many conservative voters are willing to go. This month, voters in Kansas resoundingly rejected a ballot measure that would have stripped protections for abortion from the state constitution. Days later, Nebraska’s governor announced that he would not call a previously anticipated special session to pass an abortion ban.

Lawmakers in West Virginia and South Carolina are pushing new bans in legislative sessions that could stretch into late summer. Republicans in those states are bitterly debating whether those bills should include exceptions for victims of rape and incest.

Meanwhile, a slew of new restrictions in several states is probably coming before the end of the year.

Next month, Indiana will join the states with a near-total abortion ban after lawmakers passed a law set to take effect Sept. 15. That ban includes exceptions for rape, incest or lethal fetal abnormality, or to save the life of the pregnant person.

Several states, including South Carolina, Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and West Virginia, have pending court cases that will decide the fate of abortion bans that were triggered by the fall of Roe. If all of those bans prevail, at least 23.2 million women will live in a state where abortion is banned from conception or around six weeks.

As soon as Roe was overturned, staff members at Choices, an abortion clinic in Memphis, began preparing for the courts to lift an injunction on a six-week abortion ban, a change they knew could come at any time and would outlaw most abortions in the state. Within hours of the Supreme Court decision, staff started calling patients scheduled for the following week, urging them to get to the clinic as soon as possible.

“They told me, ‘Get here now,’” said Jacretia Porter, a 24-year-old who had an abortion scheduled a week after the Dobbs decision. “They didn’t know how much longer they’d be able to do abortions.”

Porter immediately drove to the clinic, where she saw many other women who had received similar calls that morning. The other patients looked just as she felt, Porter added: “rushed, overwhelmed and super confused.”

While Porter was able to get her abortion that day, hundreds of other patients have been turned away at Choices and other clinics in Tennessee since the six-week ban took effect on June 28. Over the last seven weeks, patients have experienced “a lot of shock and anger,” said chief executive Jennifer Pepper — feelings that will only intensify when the procedure is banned altogether.

“For the first few weeks, there was not a time I left [the clinic] when I didn’t see a patient upset on the porch,” Pepper said.

After the state’s total ban goes into effect Thursday, abortions will be allowed only to save the life of a pregnant patient, such as in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, or to “prevent serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” Doctors and advocates worry that the law’s vague language will lead to potentially costly confusion.

Kaydria arrived at Choices on a recent Wednesday in August, only to find out she was already too far along to receive an abortion in Tennessee. The staff handed her a piece of paper with a list of abortion clinics in Illinois.

The closest option was more than seven hours from Kaydria’s home in Mississippi.

Angry and frustrated, Kaydria said lawmakers shouldn’t “have the right” to decide whether she gets an abortion, adding that “women aren’t breeding machines.” Already a mom, she said she used to live paycheck to paycheck and only recently began to feel on solid ground financially. By having another child, she said, she would be taking “10 steps back.”

Sitting outside the clinic, she resolved to start calling the numbers on the list that evening. She would have to find another babysitter and ask to take another day off work.

But first, a three-hour drive home.

Caroline Kitchener reported from Memphis.

https://nccrea.com/more-trigger-bans-lo ... -post-roe/
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