Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihilism

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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:30 pm

drstrangelove » 23 Mar 2023 15:40 wrote:
Joe Hillshoist » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 pm wrote: The idea of forgiveness and redemption via confession is sposed to mean that you reflect on your behaviour understand what you've done wrong and make peace with God. (Now this works fine without God if you just do it and try to be honest with yourself and listen to your own personal conscience as well. Its a useful process for self development without believing that religion.)

but conscience is shaped by a philosophical outlook on reality that provides one with an underlying reasoning for why they should have a conscience.

rejecting the outlook of a religion is fine in this specific regard so long as a person understands what they are replacing it with.

the problem with atheists is they don't really think philosophically at all. they replace god with nature because god isn't 'real'(yeah no shit fuckwits, well done!!!!) but then go on to equate the evolution of human culture to human nature. which results in the belief human nature is a cruel unforgiving thing in which only the strongest survive because of darwinism. and this is what ends up replacing the underlying logic to their ethical behavior, probably without them even realising it. they know some things are good and some things are bad, but don't understand why they should believe these things are either good or bad. so when their beliefs in good and bad are put to the test there's nothing backing it. this can be easily dealt with by teaching atheists that long before humans were competitive they were collaborative and that darwinism doesn't mean human nature is cruel or unkind, only that human behavior has the potential to be this. thus human nature is collaborative and its good to help each other.

the real issue for atheists is dealing with what can't be known. atheists have no way of dealing with the unknowable, so adopt the belief the unknowable can be known through science. since science is only useful for things that can be known, science then becomes their religion. and they start superstitiously baptizing their babies with mRNA gene therapies.


Most atheists I know use empathy and try to put themselves in the position of another person as a driver of their ethics.

Most of that "human nature is cruel and unforgiving' crap comes from Hobbes I think. "Life is nasty brutish and short or whatever" ... and it was in Europe at the time cos the people running the joint were a pack of cunts.

I'm trying to read The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wendrow at the moment (I need new glasses so its a struggle.)

i'm only a little way into it but they already challenge that Hobbesian view of humanity. And its easy to do ... one of the most basic things is that its really only Western culture that turns a blind eye to the homeless and starving. Everywhere else those people get looked after even tho there is no evolutionary benefit (or so it seems) to that sort of altruistic behaviour.
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby drstrangelove » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:36 pm

Yes it comes from Hobbes(his book Leviathan) as he used it as the justification for the social contract:

If nature is cruel and unforgiving, then human nature is cruel and unforgiving, and because this is true it's in all our best interests to protect against this nature by maintaining social order through strong government. Thus everyone has a 'social contract' with society(government :wink ) to maintain the social order.

The trick here is it makes no distinction between society and state(government), cleverly inflating the two. Implying that if you remove the government the orders of society as they exist in human culture will cease to exist.

This is basically the thesis of Lord of the flies and why it had been taught in school. Remove a bunch of kids from society, put them into nature, and watch them become cruel animals. Same thing is reinforced in disaster films where there is sudden widespread panic and chaos almost at the flip of a switch as soon as government authority is removed.

the social contract is easily debunked as human culture existed in various forms of a society long before governments or the notion of a 'State' did. Anthropology demonstrates humanity transcended from living in nature to living in culture through collaboration not competition. After this the notion of scarcity then led to competition between tribes of collaborative humans.

There is some truth to this Hobbesian view once you scale to the size of urban populations completely reliant on complex systems to fulfill their human needs that are remote and removed from their control. But such thing is a synthetic development, not a natural one, and the process of these systems breaking down when they become too centralised and institutionalised is what advances our species from civilisation to civilisation through cultural evolution, as opposed to becoming stagnant in some totalitarian regime, which is what the social contract attempts to legitimate. To help freeze the order of society into stasis by making people unquestioningly compliant with whatever the government dictates.

The propaganda of the social contract is very powerful. Watch this celebrity atheist scientist justify their belief in mandatory vaccination by talking about an imaginary social contract they have absolutely zero philosophical understanding of. You can see them stutter and pause before bringing it up because they don't entirely understand it, but bring it up anyway because it's been planted in them like seed.

(skip to 1:49)
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:00 pm

drstrangelove » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:36 pm wrote:
The propaganda of the social contract is very powerful. Watch this celebrity atheist scientist justify their belief in mandatory vaccination by talking about an imaginary social contract they have absolutely zero philosophical understanding of. You can see them stutter and pause before bringing it up because they don't entirely understand it, but bring it up anyway because it's been planted in them like seed.


Precisely.
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:26 am

.
This piece can serve as its own thread, perhaps, but it also aligns with some of the themes expressed here.


https://www.csustan.edu/history/dehuman ... rn-thought

The Dehumanizing Impact of Modern Thought:
Darwin, Marx, Nietzsche, and Their Followers
by

Richard Weikart
Updated: June 28, 2022

Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor who endured the horrors of Auschwitz, astutely commented on the way that modern European thought had helped prepare the way for Nazi atrocities (and his own misery). He stated, "If we present a man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present man as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind-machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drives and reactions, as a mere product of instinct, heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone. I became acquainted," Frankl continued, "with the last stage of that corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment-or, as the Nazi liked to say, of 'Blood and Soil.' I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some Ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and in the lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers." [1]

As a Christian undergraduate in the 1970s, I was drawn to the study of modern European intellectual history in part by the realization that much modern thought had debased humanity, as Frankl suggested. My concerns were originally stimulated by reading C. S. Lewis, especially The Abolition of Man, and several of Francis Schaeffer's works, but they were reinforced by courses I took in intellectual history and the history of philosophy. In my own private studies, I was dismayed by the vision of humanity sketched out in B. F. Skinner's Beyond Freedom and Dignity, which it seemed to me would lead to dystopias, such as the fictional ones in 1984 and Brave New World or the real one described by Alexander Solzenitsyn in his novels and in The Gulag Archipelago.

A few modern thinkers specifically criticized the "anthropocentric" view that humans are special, made in the image of God. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries the famous German Darwinist Ernst Haeckel, for example, blasted Christianity for advancing an "anthropocentric" and dualistic view of humanity. [2] Today the famous bioethicist Peter Singer, along with the atheistic Darwinian biologist Richard Dawkins, argue that based on the Darwinian understanding of human origins, we need to desanctify human life, divesting ourselves of any notion that humans are created in the image of God and thus uniquely valuable. [3] An evolutionary ecologist at the University of Texas, Eric Pianka, fights overtly against anthropocentrism, even expressing the wish that 90% of the human population will be extinguished, perhaps by a pandemic. [4]

Often, however, modern thinkers have masked the dehumanizing impact of their ideas by calling their philosophy "humanism" of one form or another, implying that their views exalt humanity. However, most attempts at exalting humanity have ironically resulted in diminishing humanity, demonstrating the biblical truth: "He who exalts himself will be abased."

After the waning of Romanticism in mid-nineteenth century Europe, many intellectuals embraced science as the sole arbiter of knowledge, including knowledge about humanity and society. The renowned, but quirky, French thinker Auguste Comte, gained many disciples for his philosophy of positivism, which rejected any knowledge not obtained through empirical, scientific investigation (except, of course, this epistemological claim itself is not subject to empirical demonstration, so it seems to me that his epistemology is self-defeating). Comte hoped to initiate the scientific study of society, coining the term sociology for this endeavor. He was optimistic that a scientific study of humanity would lead humans to practice altruism, another term he coined. Though Comte considered all metaphysics, including religion, unknowable, he wanted to create a religion of humanity, which would place humans on the highest pedestal. Most of Comte's disciples, such as John Stuart Mill, embraced his positivist epistemology, but rejected his religion of humanity, especially in the ludicrous form he presented it in his later writings (which involved many specific religious practices, including praying to a female that one admires).

Though not as prominent as positivism in the nineteenth century, materialism also increased in influence in the mid-nineteenth century. Though positivism rejected all metaphysical claims, including materialist ones, it shared many common features with materialism nonetheless. Both materialists and positivists idolized science as the only path to knowledge. By extending scientific investigation to humanity itself, however, they made assumptions about human nature that were not subject to scientific investigation. Effectively they dismissed body-soul dualism, thus reducing humanity to matter in motion. Also, their insistence that the scientific method could provide knowledge about all features of human life led them to embrace determinism. By the late nineteenth century some prominent thinkers were rebelling against reductionism and determinism, but in the nineteenth century, these views gained currency to such as extent that Francis Galton, the cousin of Darwin and the founder of the eugenics movement, coined the phrase, "nature versus nurture" to frame the intellectual debate over humanity. Galton's phrase is still commonly invoked in intellectual discourse about human behavior.

Galton and many of his contemporaries rejected free will, claiming with circular logic that science had disproven this supposedly antiquated religious conception. (This was circular reasoning because they defined science to exclude free will, and then claimed that science disproved free will). Their insistence on determinism effectively ostracized religious or spiritual conceptions of human nature. The new fields of psychology, sociology, and anthropology, which only became institutionalized in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, generally embraced this deterministic view of human behavior. By rejecting free will and embracing determinism, Galton and his contemporaries were left with three main options: humans were either the product of their biological makeup, or they were the product of their environment, or they were the product of some combination of heredity and environment. Either form of determinism (or hybrids thereof) reduces humans to inputs, either from internal or external influences. They deny independent human agency and thus strip humanity of any moral responsibility.

In the mid-nineteenth century environmental determinism was more prominent than biological determinism. The philosopher Maurice Mandelbaum argues that one of the ideas dominating nineteenth-century philosophy was the "malleability of man," i.e., the idea that human nature is shaped largely by external forces, such as culture, education, and training. [5] The father of John Stuart Mill exemplified this perspective, rigorously educating his son from an early age. Mill became a leading voice in Europe touting the power of education and training in shaping human intellect and behavior. Many mid-nineteenth-century liberals and socialists embraced this vision of environmental determinism.

Karl Marx is a prominent example of a socialist committed to environmental determinism. He called his perspective "scientific socialism," because he believed that his analysis was based on immutable economic and social laws. He was convinced that social institutions and even human nature itself were shaped by economic forces. If economic conditions changed, human nature would change accordingly. In Marx's view private property was the source of all the evils in human society, especially the oppression of the urban workers by the bourgeois capitalists. Private property thus spawned a class struggle in every age. Religion, morality, law, political structures, and other institutions and cultural factors were merely tools of the propertied classes to oppress the unpropertied masses.

Marx's primary motivation was not establishing human equality, though his socialist philosophy did militate toward greater equality. Rather Marx's primary concern was liberating humanity from oppression and tyranny. This is a laudable goal, and anyone who has read Marx's Capital or Friedrich Engels' Condition of the Working Class in 1844 should recognize that Marx had legitimate grounds for complaint. Many factory workers, not to mention the unemployed, lived in squalor and misery. Marx rightly criticized the dehumanizing effects of the Industrial Revolution. Nonetheless, when we examine the practices of Marxist regimes in the twentieth century, we see incredible oppression and tyranny. The quest for freedom was turned on its head. Why?

I suggest it is largely because of Marx's faulty view of human nature. Neither Lenin nor Stalin nor Mao nor Pol Pot nor Castro nor any other Marxist leader could alter human nature by ridding their society of private property. Changing the economy could not bring about utopia, because human behavior is not determined solely by the economy. Marxist philosophy failed because it denied to humanity its spiritual character, its free will, and also the Christian insistence on original sin. Alexander Solzenitsyn clearly depicted the Soviet problem with altering human nature in his novel, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. In this novel the prisoners in the Soviet labor camp, who are supposedly being reeducated to become good Soviet citizens, continue to act as capitalists in any way they can, even while incarcerated. The protagonist expressed at one point that the Soviet regime simply could not change his nature.

In the late nineteenth century, especially by the 1890s, the pendulum swung away from environmental determinism, and biological determinism increased its influence among European thinkers. Galton was a pivotal figure in this development, publishing his seminal work, Hereditary Genius, in 1869. Galton's influence was profound, especially since he convinced his cousin Charles Darwin that heredity was more important than environmental influences in shaping human intellect and behavior. Many Darwinists in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries came to believe-as Galton and Darwin also did-that many human character traits, such as loyalty, thrift, and diligence (or on the negative side-deceit and laziness), were biologically innate, not malleable moral traits, as most Europeans had previously thought. Darwinists in various fields-especially in biology, medicine, psychiatry, and anthropology-were in the forefront promoting biological determinism. Cesare Lombroso, the famous Italian psychiatrist who founded criminal anthropology, built his ideology on Darwinism. He argued that criminals were atavistic creatures, throwbacks to ancestors in the evolutionary process. He was most famous for promoting the idea that criminality was hereditary, not formed through environmental influence. One of the most prominent popularizers of Darwinism in Germany, the famous materialist Ludwig Buchner, published The Power of Heredity and Its Influence on the Moral and Mental Progress of Humanity in 1882. In the midst of his extended argument for biological determinism of mental and moral traits, Buchner showed where his vision of humanity led. He stated, "In the flow [of time] the individual is nothing, the species is everything; and history, just as nature, marks each of its steps forward, even the smallest, with innumerable piles of corpses." [6]

By the 1890s and especially in the early twentieth century, the eugenics movement gained popularity, especially in medical circles, in Europe and the United States. Eugenics was driven in part by fears that modern institutions had set aside the beneficial aspects of natural selection. Eugenicists continually played on the specter of weak and sickly humans beings preserved through modern medicine, hygiene, and charitable institutions, while the more intelligent and supposedly better human beings were beginning to voluntarily restrict their reproduction. This was producing biological degeneration, according to many eugenicists. Their solution? Introduce artificial selection by restricting the reproduction of the so-called "inferior" and encouraging the "superior" to procreate. Biological determinism permeated the eugenics movement, which pressed for marriage restrictions, compulsory sterilization, and sometimes even involuntary euthanasia for the disabled, because they were deemed biologically inferior.

Another prominent feature of the biological determinism of the early twentieth century was its stress on racial inequality. In Europe racist ideologies proliferated in the 1890s and early 1900s, partly under the influence of Darwinism and biological determinism. Many biologists, anthropologists, and physicians considered black Africans or American Indians less evolved than Europeans. As Europeans colonized vast stretches of the globe, many scientists proclaimed that non-Europeans were culturally inferior to Europeans. Further, they believed that these cultural differences were manifestations of biological inferiority.

By reducing humanity to their biological makeup, these Darwinian-inspired biological determinists contributed to the dehumanization process. Many nineteenth-century Darwinists emphasized the continuities between humans and animals, with Darwin himself arguing that all the differences between humans and animals were quantitative, not qualitative. Darwin even explained the origin of morality as the product of completely naturalistic evolutionary processes. The idea that humans were "created from animals," to use a famous phrase from Darwin, rather than created in the image of God, gained greater currency in the nineteenth century.

Just as one form of environmental determinism-Marxism-produced unfathomable misery for millions of humans, so did biological determinism. Hitler's National Socialism was based on a biological determinist vision of humanity that stressed racial inequality. Nazism endorsed discrimination-and ultimately even death-for those with allegedly inferior biological traits. On the other hand, it hoped to promote evolutionary advance for the human species by fostering higher reproductive levels of those considered superior biologically. Hitler's regime ended up killing about 200,000 disabled Germans, 6 million Jews, and hundreds of thousands of Gypsies in their effort to improve the human race. [7]

While many modern thinkers, especially scientists, psychologists, and social scientists, have embraced one form of determinism or another, many thinkers have followed the nineteenth-century philologist and philosopher Nietzsche in rebelling against determinism. Nietzsche attempted to rescue humanity from scientific reductionism by positing radical individual freedom. He believed that all knowledge and truth are created by humans, not imposed on us by some external reality. We cannot blame the environment, nor biology, nor God for our character and behavior. Nietzsche rejected the idea that humans have fixed natures or essences. Rather, the choices we make as individuals shape our destiny. Many subsequent existentialists and post-modern thinkers have exulted in Nietzsche's liberation from reductionism and determinism.

While Nietzsche's emphasis on free will might seem to rescue humanity from the degrading philosophies of environmental or biological determinism, it does nothing of the sort. It only elevates a small elite of humanity, whom Nietzsche called the Superman, or more literally, Overman. Nietzsche's freedom was freedom only for these Supermen, the creative geniuses (like himself) who would rise above the hoi polloi. He had nothing but disdain for the masses, whom he thought incapable of exercising true freedom. What Nietzsche contemptuously called the herd instinct of the masses fitted them for nothing other than submission to the domination of the Superman.

Despite its stress on freedom, then, Nietzsche's philosophy is really a philosophy that aims at enslavement. Power ultimately decides, not only who rules politically, but also what counts as truth. Nietzsche rejected any form of fixed truth or morality, thus undermining the very notion of humanity and human rights. Nietzsche despised weakness, compassion, and humanitarianism, preferring strength and domination. He was especially vehement in his rejection of Christian ethics, because it catered to the weak and downtrodden. His aristocratic morality aimed at justifying and benefitting the strong and powerful.

In the twentieth century many existentialist philosophers, such as Heidegger and Sartre, embraced the general contours of Nietzsche's philosophy, denying that humans have any fixed essence and stressing radical free will in human decisions. Later in the twentieth century, however, many postmodern thinkers, though heavily influenced by Nietzsche, have reduced the element of individual agency still important to Nietzsche. Many literary scholars emphasized the written text over the author, who disappeared from consideration. Human intent became irrelevant in interpreting human documents. Dehumanization thus spiraled even further downward, as all human values were construed as socially constructed.

Now that I have sketched out in broad strokes some of the dehumanizing influences of modern European thought and culture, I would like to suggest why this should be important to us. Not all environmental determinism leads to Marxism, nor does all biological determinism lead to the Holocaust. Not all existentialism or postmodernism leads to immoral behavior, either. However, false conceptions of humanity can lead to destructive behavior and harmful policies, both by societies and by individuals. It can and does affect the way we treat other human beings. Human rights are meaningless is a world of determinism or social (or individual) constructivism.

The underlying vision of human nature in any society shapes the political and social institutions, the laws, and the entire culture in far-reaching ways. The converse is also true-the political, social, and legal developments in a society influence its view of human nature and the dignity of human life. People who believe that humans are created in the image of God will have different values, ideals, practices, and institutions than those who view humans as merely the sum total of environmental and biological inputs, or those who believe that humans can create whatever truths they desire.

NOTES
1. Viktor E. Frankl, The Doctor and the Soul: From Psychotherapy to Logotherapy (New York: Vintage Books, 1986), xxvii.

2. Ernst Haeckel, Die Weltrathsel: Gemeinverstandliche Studien uber Monistische Philosophie (Bonn: Emil Strauss, 1903), 11.

3. Peter Singer, Writings on an Ethical Life (New York, 2000), 77-78, 220-21; Richard Dawkins, "The Word Made Flesh," The Guardian (December 27, 2001).

4. Eric Pianka, "Biology 301M. Ecology, Evolution, and Society," at http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/bio301; accessed 4-3-06; "Student Evaluations [for Dr. Pianka]-Spring 2004," at http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/bio357 ... tions.html, accessed 4-3-06; "Excerpts from Student Evaluations [for Dr. Pianka]-Fall 2004," at http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/bio357 ... tions.html, accessed 4-3-06. I have hard copies of these sources in my files.

5. Maurice Mandelbaum, History, Man, and Reason: A Study in Nineteenth-CenturyThought (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1971).

6. Ludwig Buchner, Die Macht der Vererbung und ihr Einfluss auf den moralischen und geistigen Fortschritt der Menschheit (Leipzig: Ernst Gunthers Verlag, 1882), 100.

7. See Richard Weikart, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2004); and my forthcoming book, Hitler's Ethic: The Nazi Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress (Palgrave Macmillan, 2009).

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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby drstrangelove » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:03 am

i agree with most of what that author wrote in their criticisms, though they don't seem to be aware that dualism and original sin are the root causes of these cynical modern philosophical outlooks.

dualism separated god from nature, but in doing so separated good from evil. if god was pure good, then from whence came evil? it had to be nature. so human nature was evil and only made good through god's good grace.

this was obviously reformed eventually by who i call the good christians. i think thomas aquinas was one. they rejected original sin and made things nicer. god is good. god made humans so humans are good. humans have free will to do bad if they wish though. but don't do that.

the author also seems to have a gripe with religion being left out of the epistemological battle over knowledge. as if knowledge is more important than what religion is actually useful for - wisdom, ethics, understanding. they've fallen into the science vs religion trap.

generally speaking, the most harmful philosophies have been the ones that posit human nature is cruel, as these justify instituting strong controls on human behavior. this is probably why these are the ones always being popularized by oligarchs.
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:00 pm

.
Yes, agreed on all points. Part of the issue with Christian-based (and similar) organized religions is their notions of dualism and 'original sin'.
This bit in particular resonates:
the most harmful philosophies have been the ones that posit human nature is cruel, as these justify instituting strong controls on human behavior. this is probably why these are the ones always being popularized by oligarchs.

This includes modern forms of Religion, such as dogmatic, zeal-like worship of "The Science" (not to be confused with legitimate, earnest science/scientific pursuits) and Secularism/Atheism, which in many respects have evolved -- particularly over the last ~10-15yrs or so -- to mimic all the negative attributes of organized religion while retaining few, if any, of the relative benefits (though most of religion's benefits are those that fall outside of the purview of organized religious structures).
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby drstrangelove » Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:34 pm

Belligerent Savant » Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:00 pm wrote:This includes modern forms of Religion, such as dogmatic, zeal-like worship of "The Science" (not to be confused with legitimate, earnest science/scientific pursuits) and Secularism/Atheism, which in many respects have evolved -- particularly over the last ~10-15yrs or so -- to mimic all the negative attributes of organized religion while retaining few, if any, of the relative benefits (though most of religion's benefits are those that fall outside of the purview of organized religious structures).

nature is evil you must be saved by god > nature is evil you must be saved by science

the flesh is always evil

in fact, the flesh has become so evil that it now causes gender dysmorphia in children, and only through the grace of science can these children be saved.
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Re: Prophecy of Evil: Tolkien, Lewis, and Technocratic Nihil

Postby drstrangelove » Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:40 pm

Joe Hillshoist » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:05 pm wrote:
drstrangelove » 21 Mar 2023 09:17 wrote:you are absolutely correct when it comes to belief in an omnipotence(all-powerful) god. this is what catholics believe and why catholicism is totalitarian/fascist. it does not believe people have free will. which is why catholics aren't held accountable for their actions. raped a bunch of kids? not your fault - god's will. it's entirely void of ethics as its teaching are ultimately meaningless.

but this is not true of the christian transcendent god, which is omniscient but does not meddle in the affairs of humans(not all-powerful), leaving them free will to be either good or bad and most importantly, accountable for their actions. raped a bunch of kids? your fault - free will. it has ethics which are meaningfully applied. redemption for bad behavior is found through good behavior, not just saying ten hail marys.

basically free-will religion is tolerant of subjective reality whereas god's-will religion is intolerant of subjective reality. granted, what i've just laid out seems to be lost on many self-identifying as christian these days.

problem with atheism is that it rejects the belief that some things cannot be known, or rather, shouldn't be known. many of the atrocities committed in the name of science have occurred because of an inability not to know things. there is a basic human need for certitude and security towards the unknown. this can either be dealt with, as it currently stands, by discovering it through science or not worrying about it because that's something only god should know.

what kind of knowledge can humans learn from vivisection? perhaps that should be left for god to know and not find out.

what happens when we mass vaccinate a population with gene therapy technology during a pandemic? perhaps that should be left for god to know and not find out.

atheism is what has turned science into a religion to fill the void of the unknown. free-will religion is not in conflict with science, provides an ethical basis for scientific experimentation, and prevents science from becoming religion by drawing a clear distinction between the purpose of the two.

now i have read books that deal with this issue through basically what is called ethical humanism(i think). which just takes free-will religion and literally replaces the word god with nature - not pagan though. which is more or less what i believe.

i believe god nature is good. and because humans come from god nature i believe humans are good. people have the free will to go against their good nature. the basis of people's good nature though is the need to work collaboratively/cooperatively with each other to survive.

yes religion is a control mechanism. ethics is a control mechanism. people controlling their own behavior based on set of beliefs, as opposed to say being beaten with a stick, is a good thing. everything to do with philosophy is about controlling behavior. except for literally the worst philosophies which have no ethics . . . "nothing is true, everything permitted".

atheists have also come to base ethics on greater good logic a.k.a the trolley dilemma. which is purely quantitative and usually purely hypothetical(if you pull the lever and kill one person maybe you save four). they reject qualitative factors because those aren't "objective". there it is again. the belief in objective reality. as if qualitative factors such as age aren't real. as if you couldn't ask four grandparents if perhaps they would be happy for you to pull the lever to save their one grandchild. nope too complex. too much noise. 1 person = 1 person. everyone is the same as everyone else. "don't you believe in equality? don't you believe people should be equal?"

if(lives saved > lives lost) then: act=justified

^ that right there sums up the last three years of pandemic policy. it's ends based thinking with little consideration for means. ends are hypothetical. means are very much real and in people's direct control. you CAN control your own actions, you CANNOT control the reactions to your actions.

and when this greater good logic turns out to have been purely hypothetical, they say "at the time we didn't know" "what we didn't know then" "now we know".

atheism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to an objective reality based on all-knowing scientists, that unlike god, do very much interfere with the world.


I was raised as a Catholic, my mum still is one even tho she is very rational, was a plant geneticist in the 60s when women didn't do science (I think the first one in Australia) etc etc.

Anyway free will is a fundamental concept to Catholics. It means you are responsible for your actions, not someone else, not God - you. The idea of forgiveness and redemption via confession is sposed to mean that you reflect on your behaviour understand what you've done wrong and make peace with God. (Now this works fine without God if you just do it and try to be honest with yourself and listen to your own personal conscience as well. Its a useful process for self development without believing that religion.)

There is fuck all difference between Catholics and other Christians. The differences are trivial and as a result they are made out to be huge so people in power in those heirarchies can manipulate their congregations.

I knew two Seventh day Adventists for years, still know one - more Christians tho they are usually vegatarian which is a significant from between other Christian religions. They were more focused on what was wrong with each others belief systems than anything I said and I flat out told them both I was a pagan. Their trivial differences in how they interpreted some obscure line in the bible were more important to them than trying to convince me that what I thought about the world was influenced by satan.


you were right. i had the concepts of free will and original sin confused. the vatican's control wasn't through the rejection of free will, but in their arbitration of choice. i got confused because they forgive bad behavior to exalt their own authority.
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