rigorousintuition.ca

People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.

"Apartheid in the Holy Land"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4403 ... 52,00.html

Note that Desmond Tutu's description of how Israel's apartheid regime will "bite the dust" is almost indistinguishable from Ahmedinajad's prediction that what he calls "the occupying regime" will disappear "from the arena of times".

Another distinction is that while Tutu still holds out hope for a two-state solution, Ahmedinajad, like many others (including me) believes that Israel's settlements policies have destroyed this option, as they were intended to do. The only way forward is to create a democratic, secular state for all Palestinians: Jewish, Muslim and Christian. As long as they give up all claims for supremacy and domination by their group of the others.

On edit: I added the link.

cognitive dissonance between the title and the content has me wondering if you're on even more drugs than me, alice

get a new obsession

I think Alice is trying to illustrate that both Tutu and Ahmedinajad are essentially saying the same thing--there is no future in Israel's current "apartheid" like policies--but yet it is Ahmedinajad who is villified for advocating genocide, when of course neither man is.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail.

I think I know where you're coming from but f you are being sardonically perceptive, ATK, you've got to be clear about it. The anti-semitic meme is too pervasive not to be absolutely clear in criticism and avoid adding fuel to that fire.

This is one reason why I tend to make strong assertions which bring out some knee-jerk skeptics, because I don't want to leave people wondering what the heck I really meant. Seems many are more comfortable with a "maybe" in front of every statement but I'll not over-emphasize uncertainty to please them.

Can anyone refer me to THE one book to read that will convince my mind that the "6 million Jews" figure is indeed, irrefutable, written in stone, and undebatable?

If you have to ask that in such a rhetorical and loaded way, then probably the answer is no.

Nomo said:
"... there is no future in Israel's current "apartheid" like policies--but yet it is Ahmedinajad who is villified for advocating genocide, when of course neither man is."


*****
ABSO-lutely right. It's SO galling for me to read/see the utterly irresponsible over-the-top rabble-rousing hysterical ranting by self-styled pro-Zionist idealsts who conflate rather modest statements re: Israel's criminal, unjust regime which must and WILL eventually collapse, with calls for wholesale Genocide, ie. "wiping out, murdering ALL Jews" (just because they are Jewish).

That ANYONE can't see thru such duplicious, dishonest hate-mongering manipulation is a real testimony to the PTB's far-ranging, ongoing dumbing-down re-education project, AND the co-opted, special-interest-dominated mass-media in service to the Military-Industrial Complex/PTB/Klepto-Corporatocracy.

Sort of reminds me of Horowitz's twisted diatribe against Carter, calling him a moral defective and marshalling grossly misleading amd patently false 'facts' to disprove Carter's many first-person observations re: Israel's rascist injustices and cruelties against Palestinian Arabs.

As far as Tutu's linking Milosevic with Hitler, Stalin and Pinochet -- I'm rather surprised Tutu has apparently bought into the PTB's self-serving demonization of Milosevic. The US's criminal bombing/invasion and conquest of Yugoslavia --and support for the KLA and subsidy of their Arab mercenaries-- has led to FAR more deaths and horrors and injustices than the supposed 'genocidal' mass-murder by Serbia/Milosevic.

Starman

orz wrote:If you have to ask that in such a rhetorical and loaded way, then probably the answer is no.

Is the answer "no" because I am assumed to be "unteachable" because of my anti-zionism which you may assume to be a racial issue (which it isn't: zionists are not a race of people), or "no" because no such book can be put together to satisfy the 6 million figure?
If you know of a book that meets the demand I ask for, then you should not tell me "no" simply to spite the question because it was asked by "one who questions the unquestionable".
It sounds like you know of such a book, but don't want to share it with me, because I asked the wrong way. How should I ask?

orz wrote:If you have to ask that in such a rhetorical and loaded way, then probably the answer is no.

Got a hell of a chuckle outta that one, well said....

Wombaticus Rex wrote:

orz wrote:If you have to ask that in such a rhetorical and loaded way, then probably the answer is no.

Got a hell of a chuckle outta that one, well said....

Yes, I chuckled too. Hell of a chuckle.

It sounds like you know of such a book, but don't want to share it with me, because I asked the wrong way. How should I ask?

I don't think there is one single book that you can just look up and go "Oh ok then", i think that's an over-simplification of a complex issue and not a helpful way to think about it.

I'm not saying there definitely was exactly 6 million but it just seemed like a very rhetorical question with the implication that if the artificial criteria of one specific "proof" is not met, then you just won't believe it.

In reality there's a whole history which you should study and draw your own conclusions if you really want to find an answer.

I'm not saying there definitely was exactly 6 million but it just seemed like a very rhetorical question with the implication that if the artificial criteria of one specific "proof" is not met, then you just won't believe it.

Can you elaborate please Orz ?

You can understand how I find this kinda rich coming from you I hope ?

What's to elaborate? It sounded like a rhetorical question which implied that the asker already had made up his mind, and was asking for a slightly nonsensical 'proof' that he knows can't literally be delivered, for a claim that's kind of a straw man anyway, ie the number being "set in stone."

Sorry if that isn't what was intended but that's how I read it.

And no, I don't really see the irony.

Anyway the question was pretty much totally off topic!

orz wrote:What's to elaborate? It sounded like a rhetorical question which implied that the asker already had made up his mind, and was asking for a slightly nonsensical 'proof' that he knows can't literally be delivered, for a claim that's kind of a straw man anyway, ie the number being "set in stone."

Sorry if that isn't what was intended but that's how I read it.

And no, I don't really see the irony.

Anyway the question was pretty much totally off topic!

Well at least you cleared that one up.

Just out of interest Orz, and beyond what is little short of skepticism about anything almost anyone says on here, do you have any kind of opinion on anything ?

And well done Wombat. Youre support of Orz spoke volumes to me

Man i didn't really expect an argument, I was just calling out what seemed to me to be a pretty dubious rhetorical question which has ended up derailing the thread!!

do you have any kind of opinion on anything ?

I'm developing PLENTY of opinions the more of this kind of comment I read here. You wouldn't like them tho.

Seriously, I didn't come here to be a troll or debunker... When I read something that I agree with I usually don't have much to say about it, you know? And many subjects (RA etc) i find interesting but really don't have the understanding or knowledge to judge one way or another so refrain from sticking my oar in. But when I see something that seems to me absurd, harmful or just plain incorrect I'll speak out, and why not? We're all sceptical of much mainstream thought, or why would be be here? But what's the point in that if you're not gonna apply the same level of scepticism equally to alternative ideas?

Anyway, here's an opinion: The double standards re; Tutu and Ahmedinajad's similar statements are shocking. What's even worse is that I wouldn't be surprised if certain right-wing pundits were to spout this thread's title in a non-ironic way!

Well at least you cleared that one up.

No problem. Now maybe you can elaborate, on whether you thought the question about this mythical book which so effortlessly 'proves' the supposedly "set in stone" 6 million, was a reasonable and non-loaded one? And if so do you have an answer?