Time for a different outlook ?

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Re: indeed.

Postby marykmusic » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:34 pm

"Can't fight F-16's with your bare hands"?<br><br>I beg to differ.<br><br>My husband can alter the course of Apache gunships with his finger... and his mind. --MaryK <p></p><i></i>
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forgotten subject

Postby Homeless Halo » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:14 pm

As an american who grew up on military bases I'm forced utterly disagree that a pandemic flu would be reason enough to induce american soldiers to kill their own mothers and fathers. How would they buy replacement bullets?<br><br>The militarization of space?<br>Done. <br><br>Where have you been?<br><br>The problem with using Pandemic flu as a weapon, is that it doesn't work well. The REAL reason why we don't use biological weapons all the time. How would you stop your soldiers from dying?<br>Vaccine?<br>How would you stop your soldiers from giving the vaccine to their mom?<br><br>Better yet, how would they stop the three star general from following his brain wash training and executing his superiors when they begin their coup attempt?<br><br>The soldiers calling the Pentagon on the prison abuses should be enough to show you that they have "souls". They follow orders, yes, but they believe they are the good guys. When they find out they aren't, the warhawks better be ready for an internal "blowback" on a scale they haven't imagined before. One third of my class from School is in the US military, and not a single one of them trusts their government any more than I do. I have no doubt that when/if that time comes, they and I will be on the same side. I can say the same thing for all the other military men of honor my family has had the pleasure of being friendly with. (General Hartinger was a close family friend, and Storming Norman HATES Cheny and the "neo-con" warhawks, read his book if you don't think so..."It Doesn't Take a Hero")<br><br>IMO the Pandemic Flu scare is another attempt at fear mongering the same way the Ebola Virus and AIDS were in the nineties. We didn't all die of either of them, and CNN assured me that this world would've fallen by now...<br><br>Y2K anyone?<br><br>George Bush is a malcontent. A derranged, abused, possibly mind controlled "pet" of the International Banking Communities. But Hitler he isn't. <br><br>Can we call apples "apples" and oranges "oranges" please?<br><br>Oh, any Yes, BTW, one can indeed fight F-16s with no military equipment. We taught the Taliban how to do it years ago. They are still doing pretty well with it.<br><br>You think the military would take a stronger approach on its home soil when it doesn't have the steel to make total war on foreigners?<br><br>I doubt it.<br><br>This isn't 1930s Germany. Karl Rove is not the minister of Propoganda. Dick Cheny is not a puppetmasters.<br><br>Wet dreams. That's all any of this is. The PTB like to dream of the day when no one will ever step out of line and they will rule without contest. That day will never come. All of these idiots will fall by the wayside, and we will continue moving forward. <br><br>Sometimes the masters walk the dogs.<br>Sometimes the dogs walk the masters.<br><br>"Some say the end is near, some say we'll see Armageddon soon. I certainly hope we will. I sure could use a vacation..."<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: forgotten subject

Postby eric144 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:52 pm

" How would they buy replacement bullets?"<br><br>Very true, LOL.<br><br>"The militarization of space?<br>Done. "<br><br>In development, very much so.<br><br>The American military are the most brutal thugs in human history, from top to bottom. I have no faith in the honor of those who murdered 100,000 Iraqi teenagers in one day and buried them alive (Basra). There isn't enough hard disc space on ezboard to cover American atrocities since 1941.<br><br>"You think the military would take a stronger approach on its home soil when it doesn't have the steel to make total war on foreigners?"<br><br>That's public opinion, not a lack of steel, martial law will take care of it, that's what it's for.<br><br><br>"IMO the Pandemic Flu scare is another attempt at fear mongering the same way the Ebola Virus and AIDS were in the nineties. "<br><br>True, bird flu won't be anything like the scare they're putting about as you say, just enough to impose martial law and start WWIII. It is the quarantine that Bush announced the other day that matters, not the actual flu.<br><br>"This isn't 1930s Germany. Karl Rove is not the minister of Propoganda. Dick Cheny is not a puppetmasters."<br><br>In my opinion, it's a lot worse. Fascism has come back to its natural home, the United States having been exported to Germany by Ford, IBM, Rockefeller, Bush, Pew, Dulles etc. (with help from the British and German industrialists and aristocracy). It was defeated by the Soviet Union, no problem - let's try again.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Eric, you mean the White Rose?

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:13 am

Yes, they took on Hitler. And they all died, because the mass of Germans didn't really WANT Hitler gone.<br><br>That's something I think we have to face, my friends. When people get fed up, they start sharpening the guillotine and the tumbrels roll. Until then, it's like kicking a drugged moose.<br><br>I used the chess analogy myself in my own thread about being tired of being a pawn; however, ANY game relies on both players agreeing, first, that they're playing the same game, then following the rules.<br><br>No matter how good a chess player my opponent is, if, when I'm down to pawns, I kick the board over, pull out a 9 mm Glock and pull a Michael Corleone at the restaurant with Solozzo, I win.<br><br>So far, the other side's been playing "Kill Or Enslave the People For Our Own Gain." The people have been playing "Politics Is Just Like They Show on The West Wing" or "I Don't Follow Politics, I Just Shop" or some other jackass game. When, or rather if, the people decide to play "Over Your Dead Body You Play Your Game With Me, Pricks"....then it gets interesting.<br><br>Or so history tells us, eh? <p></p><i></i>
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however

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:18 am

There a lot of issues to address here, and probably not enough room for all of them.<br><br>I don't think the american military are "the most brutal thugs in human history". Most efficient thugs, perhaps, but most of them didn't actually shoot anyone, as is true of all soldiers in all wars. Most of the soldiers I know joined, not to shoot civilians, but to be able to afford to go to college in a country with a backward schooling system. I have a number of close friends in Iraq and Afghanistan currently, none of them chose to be there, nor is it likely they would have, if given a free choice. I find the demonization of soldiery to be hypocritical at best (if not for said soldiery, we'd already be officially fascist, and so would everyone else), and at worst, a huge sleight-of-hand distraction from the more important issue. What more important issue? That would be that Americans are so tired and uneducated that they supported this series of wars without better explanations as to why. Soldiers are supposed to do what they're told to do. We the People, in America, are responsible to see that they are told to do what is right, not vice versa. It is the American civillian population you should be at odds with, not its soldiery. Not to mention, for example, the British civil society which opposed the wars, but allowed its government to fight them anyway.<br><br>The "natural home" of Fascism, you say, is the United States. I disagree. All of america's elitism/racism was imported along with all the other "values" we co-opted from Europe. Racism has existed in man since his roots, and it has no "home" other than the hearts of ignorant men and their allies. We didn't elect Hitler. Germany did. We weren't responsible for his actions, despite any amount of funding (which came from all over the world, not just USA, although we had more opportunity). <br><br>As regards the quarantine, Bush has already been told by nearly all of the State level leaders, that it isn't going to happen. They don't like him. No one likes him. No one trusts him, and no one is going to give him powers over martial law. He can talk all he wants, but it won't happen. One of the advantages the Religious Right in America gives us, is that they are inherently distrustful of this manuever by any government. His comments are already backfiring throughout his support base of Evangelical Christians (who've been preaching about state control for centuries). And he lost the popular vote here. Twice. He isn't on solid enough ground to do this sort of thing. 9/11 didn't work as well as they thought it would, and people are beginning to catch on. <br><br>But, of course, you can believe that world war 3 is around the corner, and you might be right, but I doubt it. I don't think these people are nearly as powerful as they or you think they are.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Eric, you mean the White Rose?

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:21 am

Yes, the white rose.<br><br>"Or so history tells us, eh? "<br><br>When have the people ever won any battle without outside help. The fall of the iron curtain was less Hollywood and more Broadway. Gorbachev pulled the rug from under all the regimes. <p></p><i></i>
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Damn, I don't want any of ya'll...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:32 am

...in MY cadre of Maquis when we head for the hills. <br><br>Who says we wouldn't have outside help? The entire PLANET loathes George Bush and much of it has had a bellyful of cringing under US bombs. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: however

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:40 am

What you say about thereasons for the American joining the military are of course totally tue, but they do it and they are killing people in Iraq today for college money which I understand isn't actually very forthcoming after they sign up. The Iraqis welcomed the Americans but a week later said they were evil filthy pigs. Not Bush, not Rumsfeld, the boots on the ground.<br><br>"Not to mention, for example, the British civil society which opposed the wars, but allowed its government to fight them anyway."<br><br>That's correct, we are an occupied country like Germany and most of Europe, what can we do ? The home of democracy is now a laughing stock and a political joke thank to the current Vichy style government. There is no democracy in Britain, none. Don't tell me that the USA is any more democratic.<br><br>"Most of america's elitism/racism was imported along with all the other "values" we co-opted from Europe."<br><br>Fascism for me is about control of politics by corporations, that's how it's always been in America.<br><br>Quarantine<br><br>Look how successful Bush was in getting the trops into New Orleans, blowing up the levis etc. Perfect practice for quarantine. It's going to happen because the emergency situation will dictate it whatever the smart people you mention are saying now and of course they're totally correct.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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yeah, duh.

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:45 am

Yes, banned.<br><br>See, the thing is, more than half of america hates W. And so does all of everywhere else. I don't see him as the centerpiece for a WW3 level conspiracy event.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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What can we do?

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:56 am

We do what freedom fighters have always done when faced with superior force. <br><br>We can take as our motto "Live Free or Die" and we fight.<br><br>What did William Wallace do?<br><br>What did the Maquis do?<br><br>What did the Warsaw ghetto fighters do?<br><br>What did the andartes in the mountains of Greece do?<br><br>They fought. They had no guarantees. Many died. Some survived to see better days.<br><br>Here's a bit of inspiration. I'm not affiliated with this, but am a long time admirer of the Cretan freedom fighters. Please do visit the site to look at the proud demeanor of these old men who fought when it seemed there was no hope. And remember that the unexpectedly fierce Cretan reaction to the German invasion slowed Hitler down sufficiently that he was unable to launch Operation Barbarossa on schedule and therefore got bogged down in the Russian winter.<br><br>----<br>"I recently traveled to Crete where I had the opportunity to interview the only two living resistance fighters from the village of Gonies, Meleviziou (near Anoyia). Eleftherios Markogianakis (Venizelos) and Billionis are now in their late 80s (early 90s) but can recall the events of the German occupation as if they occurred yesterday. They were both able to shed light on several events that have been misrepresented in books and other historical documents. This was their chance to set the record straight. <br><br>The resistance fighters from the village of Gonies, Meleviziou (near Anoyia) played a significant role during the German occupation of Crete. They were known as the Goniani andartes. They fought against the Germans, assisted in the capture of General Kriepe and finally accepted the withdrawal of the Germans from Heraklion. Their keen knowledge of the terrain and willingness to never surrender made them one of the fiercest resistance groups in Crete. Their actions had a direct impact on the Battle of Crete.<br>The Goniani Andartes consisted of 14-20 men from the village of Gonies (see map on the left) and two others from neighboring villages. The Goniani Andartes relied heavily on the few men who had prior military experience. Unconventional, guerrilla-style tactics were primarily used to deter and defeat the Germans whenever possible. But in the long run ingenuity and familiarity of the mountainous region proved to be much more of an asset than military experience. On 11 October 1944, the liberation of Heraklion became a reality. The previous ten days were tense as battalions of German infantry supported by artillery anticipated an attack on Heraklion by several groups of andartes. On the morning of 11 October, Colonel Andreas Nathenas, the new military representative of the government-in-exile and governor of the prefecture of Heraklion, ordered several andartes groups to enter Heraklion and meet at the German headquarters by the port at 1500 hours. At the time, the Goniani Andartes were acting as bodyguards and providing personal security for Colonel Nathenas. Somehow the Goniani andartes misunderstood the order and entered Heraklion at 1400 hours. They traveled in several vehicles through the city to the German headquarters. Venizelos and Billionis described the atmosphere that day as one of uncertainty. They felt alone and abandoned, as if they were on a suicide mission.<br><br>As the vehicles reached the German headquarters local Cretans began to gather below the balcony where the Nazi flag continued to fly. In an unexpected spontaneous move Venizelos, Billionis, Dimitri Tsagarakis (AKA Mitsos, my grandfather), and another gentleman entered the German headquarters and proceeded to the balcony. By then the locals began chanting, "take down the flag, take down the flag." Billionis described the feeling of helplessness as he and Venizelos laid down their weapons so they could lower the Nazi flag. Hundreds of trigger-happy German soldiers also gathered below waiting for orders from their superiors. As Venizelos began to lower the Nazi flag several German soldiers raised their weapons. A German officer on the balcony quickly motioned to all his soldiers not to fire. <br><br>As Venizelos lowered the Nazi flag it fell to the ground. Venizelos picked it up, folded it and presented it to the German officer. He then raised a Greek flag given to him earlier that day by Colonel Nathenas. The Greek flag was taken from a local Greek school's flag post. Locals began to cheer and shout with joy. Their day of freedom had finally arrived. <br><br>Only after the flag incident did the other andartes groups enter the city. From the headquarters they marched the Germans out of Heraklion and to Rethymno where they were handed off to another group. <br><br>If it were not for the selfness devotion of the Goniani Andartes, I would not be here today. I, as well as others around the world owe them immensely. They made this world a better place. Their accomplishments and legacy will live on for generations as long as we continue to tell their story. <br><br>We all owe it to them and to future generations to continue telling their stories of bravery and commitment. <br><br>The Goniani andartes epitomize the Cretan; fierce fighters who would stop at nothing to protect their family, their land and their freedom. Venizelos and Billionis are true heroes. You can see it in their eyes and feel the passion in their voices. I am honored to know them."<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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wrong.

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:01 am

Bush was remarkably unsuccessful, by American standards, at getting the troops into New Orleans. Indeed, american standards would've dictated that they arrived before the incident and quelled all rioting before it began. In that sense, I'd say that proved how inept he is at military matters (having no experience himself), and that he isn't particularly representative of a "mastermind". What I mean is, that it is NORMAL in America for FEMA and the National Guards (supported by professional military) to oversee this sort of crisis. Our inability to quickly take the city and restore order (still not entirely accomplished) should be seen as evidence AGAINST your theory. We are in no position to dictate martial law, because we suck at it. <br>Historically, I might add, all of America's attempts to institute martial law on a large scale have failed miserably. There have been several. (LA Riots, Detroit Fires/Riots, etc) Each time, a concentration of civilians with rocks has thrown out the National Guard's weekend warriors and even our professional soldiery.<br><br>So no, I don't think it is very likely. I think you have a limited view of American history. A Quarantine would lead to another Civil War in America. A real one. And this wouldn't benefit Bush's backers, who, as we all know, are the ones who really decide his policies. <br><br>If America instituted a Quarantine, they'd have to kill the 100 million people with guns like me. As many as died in all the wars in the twentieth century. Because whether or not our government is FOR the people is irrelevant here. What matters is that the moment the people stop thinking it is, is the moment the government is lost.<br><br>"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government..."<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: What can we do?

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:04 am

"What did William Wallace do?"<br><br>He was executed. I was actually born in the same village as Wallace was reputed to have been in. I haven't seen Braveheart and I don't have to be told it was a load of Hollywood nonesense.<br><br><br>What did the Maquis do?<br>They waited for the British and Americans to recue them having caused some damage to the Germans.<br><br>What did the Warsaw ghetto fighters do?<br>They lost<br><br>What did the andartes in the mountains of Greece do?<br><br>No idea!!<br><br>They fought. They had no guarantees. Many died. Some survived to see better days.<br><br>They're all dead now and yes, the Cretans died heroically but twenty five years after the war, every restaurant had 'We speak German' in the window. Money doesn't talk, it begs..<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: wrong.

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:21 am

The New Orleans operation was perfect, they deliberately let the people starve and stopped them leaving, exactly like a quarantine operation. The idea of a quarantine isn't to restore order just to stop people leaving, they did that.<br><br>"What matters is that the moment the people stop thinking it is, is the moment the government is lost."<br><br>I know for a fact it wouldn't happenin in this country, people are far too soft for that kind of thing. nowadays. It has never happened in America or anywhere else. Ninety percent of Americans would probably have a nervous breakdown if the fridge stopped working for two consecutive days.<br><br><br><br>""That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government..."<br><br>Yes more ridiculous nonsense and rhetoric from the hand of the great usurper. The hubris of Americans is that they are different, they have democracy. It isn't true and never has been.<br><br>Here is a great page about the so called revolution<br><br>Toward an American Revolution<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://cyberjournal.org/cj/authors/fresia/#c1">cyberjournal.org/cj/authors/fresia/#c1</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>This what Dr Johnson said about the founding fathers<br><br>"Sir, they are a race of convicts, and ought to be thankful for anything we allow them short of hanging."<br><br>and<br><br>"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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not particularly

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:43 am

Ah, so its just Americans, then, eh?<br><br>Um, we had a civil war over a similar issue some time ago. It was much worse for us than our foreign wars put together, as civil wars often are. <br><br>You think americans are too soft to fight back?<br>Americans kill 40,000 americans every year. I don't think we're soft at all. Maybe a bit overweight. <br><br>I like how you pick and choose what to respond to, and avoid the stated points to cherry pick at the easy targets.<br><br>Of course we know that the American revolution was staged. They taught me that in American public school. Everyone knows that. And no one has a perfect democracy, and the American system is even behind many more modern systems. I don't deny that. What I deny is your simple minded antiamericanism you keep hidden behind your intellectual pretense. <br><br>I know that my family fared far better during its time in the States than it did back on the Continent. (I can follow my lineage back to a group of rather pissed Visigoths) I know that regardless of what most people know about American democracy, that most Americans value it highly and would bite and kick if they realized it was slipping away. I know that you might like to think that Americans are soft, but that the truth is they are tired. They are tired from working to pay their bills and the landlords and tired of being the scapegoat for all of Europe's problems. (If the Euros had stamped on Hitler when he started, the Americans wouldn't be ruling the roost today)<br><br>Americans did fine when the Fridge stopped working last time for two days. I was here. We lost electricity in this corner of the country, and it was four days here. We didn't obey the "mandatory" curfew then either.<br><br>Insofar as the troops keeping people "in" New Orleans, I'm not sure where you get your information from, but the people I know in New Orleans (am aunts, uncles, cousins, etc) were really happy when the Military got there. And they got a ride out, with the Military. Did them a hell of a lot more good than the private sector did. How do you get that the Troops made people stay in NO when they were enforcing Mandatory Evacuation?<br>You must read some far out conspiracy sites.<br><br>(My family is originally from Deep South. We used to own slaves. Fought in the Civil War for the South)<br><br>Oh, and:<br><br>"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"<br><br>Pot to Kettle. Slave trade long long began BEFORE America was its own country (about 5000 BC from what we know), mein freund. <br><br>Now, why don't we address some points this time. <p></p><i></i>
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Yet more suppressed history

Postby marykmusic » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:59 am

I am also Southern born and bred. My great-great grandfather was a lieutenant under General Morgan (in the 8th Kentucky Rifles) and participated in the 1000-mile "Longest Raid." <br><br>An awful lot of us Southerners have never trusted the government ever since, and not much before. States' rights was written into the Constitution; this was originally a Republic of many different parts, and that was slowly being abrogated by such legislation as the Missouri Compromise.<br><br>Be that as it may, the war was bankrolled-- BOTH sides-- by the same European banking cartel, with assistance from the British Crown. Lincoln essentially sold the whole country out as his part of the bargain, and created a corporation under Crown control. THIS is the biggest reason the South seceded. It wasn't about slavery (which was truly on its way out); that's a crock that has been taught ever since to help keep the South from ever totally recovering.<br><br>There are many of us who can still live when the power goes off, when gas gets scarce. If I need to shoot squirrels to survive, I have a squirrel dog. But I'll have to really work on my marksmanship. --MaryK<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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