Time for a different outlook ?

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I'm not sure what your point is, Eric.

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:00 am

With all due respect, because I'm enjoying this interchange even though I keep having to jump back and forth between two threads <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> .<br><br>I only see two alternatives, fight or knuckle under.<br><br>If you choose to fight, you might lose.<br><br>If you knuckle under, you DO lose.<br><br>You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.<br><br>I think we're all very spoiled, those of us in countries that haven't had a big time dust up in a couple of generations. I don't see old Venizelos and his pals sitting around a taverna table drowning their sorrows in tsikouthia and moping that if they fight they might get their asses kicked. They KNEW they were probably going to get their asses kicked, but they slung their rifles on their backs anyway and headed into the Lefka Ori (home by the way of the birthplace of Zeus) because that was what it meant then to be a man.<br><br>As you say, most Americans now are soft. But tough times toughen people up, at least the people who had it in them to be toughened up. As Viktor Frankl wrote in "Man's Search for Meaning" the concentration camps didn't change people, it stripped them down to who they really were. Some people handed their last piece of bread to a child, some snatched bread from children. Some people participated in the Treblinka uprising and some didn't.<br><br>As for the latter:<br><br>"Of the 800 prisoners who took part in the uprising, 400 were killed in the fighting, and 300 more were killed trying to escape into a nearby forest. One hundred prisoners survived to destroy the crematoria, but were later killed. Only forty German soldiers were killed. After the uprising was quelled, the entire Treblinka death camp was destroyed and a farm was put in its place to cover it up."<br><br>Were they wrong to rise up? Do you judge the wisdom of fighting by whether the fighter wins or loses, or by the justice of their cause?<br><br>None of us know whether we will, when our time comes, choose to fight, or choose to surrender. Or choose to run and wait for a battle with better odds. Sometimes though, there is no 'run' option, because there's nowhere to go. <br><br>Think about Thermopylae. Do we remember Leonides because he won? Or because he didn't shrink from a necessary task that was hopeless for him and his men but which he believed might give hope to others?<br><br>All we can do is hope we never come to such a choice, but that if we do, we the honorable choice. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: not particularly

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:03 am

"Um, we had a civil war over a similar issue some time ago. It was much worse for us than our foreign wars put together, as civil wars often are. "<br><br>Lincoln said he didn't care wheeher one slave was freed if the Union was preserved". It was also about tarrifs, slavery was an economic North/South divide.<br><br><br>"You think americans are too soft to fight back?"<br><br>I said I didn't think British peole would fight either. They would have no chance against helicopter gunships and the like. Yes I do think the miltary would use them if they were being paid.<br><br>"I like how you pick and choose what to respond to, and avoid the stated points to cherry pick at the easy targets."<br><br>it's natural behaviour<br><br>"Of course we know that the American revolution was staged. They taught me that in American public school. Everyone knows that. "<br><br>No offence but I don't believe that because I've never heard it before.<br><br>"Americans value it highly and would bite and kick if they realized it was slipping away."<br><br>It's almost gone already, never heard of Alex Jones ???<br><br>"tired of being the scapegoat for all of Europe's problems"<br><br>Sorry, that's silly because America bought Hitler and the same people nearly overthrew FDR too. That was a LONG time ago as well .<br><br>"Pot to Kettle. Slave trade long long began BEFORE America was its own country (about 5000 BC from what we know), mein freund. "<br><br>The founding fathers like Jefferson, Wahington and Adams owned slaves. Pathetic in the circumstaces I'm sure you'll agree.<br><br>No time for NO.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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always

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:13 am

Do you always not believe anything you've never heard before?<br><br>How does that work?<br><br>I was taught in school that the American revolution, while based on actual grievances was instigated by "turncoats" essentially. I remember specifically a bit about the 'Boston Tea Party' being organized by "interested parties" in America, wishing to have rule to themselves as opposed to the Crown. <br><br>Believe what you like.<br><br>We were also taught that the Civil war was about the right of states to leave the Union, not slavery. Which I never said, btw, although you argued it as if I had.<br><br>I'm not really interested in arguing over the sins of the slave trade, a british import, in the guise we adopted it, and a far older practice, historically than either country.<br><br>Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were all BRITISH "citizens" when they acquired their slaves. <br><br>(Lincoln confiscated slaves, not "freed" slaves, yes.)<br><br>America bought Hitler?<br>I knew we helped finance him, but didn't Switzerland, England, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Russia, China, Japan, and Canada (among others) also?<br><br>Please also note that at no time did our government or our people as a whole finance Hitler whatsoever. All of this crap was done under the table (and contrary to American laws at the time) by international business men attached to the same banking communities which installed Adolf in Germany. <br><br>Indeed American government benefitted greatly from the "fruits" of nazi labor under Reich 3. But so did the British and the French and the Russians. <br><br>How is Hitler America's fault?<br>I always understood that most of his funding came from Northern Europe?<br>(unless you'd say we should've gone to war sooner?)<br><br>You'll have to explain how America "bought" Hitler to me. <br><br><br><br><br> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Back to where this thread was initially coming from.

Postby slimmouse » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:57 am

Having watched this thread slowly descend in a strangely orchestrated fashion,to the usual level of hopelessness, fear, and despair, here is an excerpt to hopefully help explain where I was originally coming from;<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Considering what we have just reviewed in the last chapter, we must advance another philosophical premise. If consciousness and love can manipulate matter, create all known energy fields and is ultimately a vibrational movement of aetheric energy, then:<br><br>The level of love, consciousness or intelligence in a given area is directly measured by the vibrational speed of aether in that area. <br><br>Hence, if the aetheric “fabric” of space and time has a given area where the vibrational speeds are faster, then a higher degree of intelligence and love is capable of existing in that area; simply put, there is more energy available in that area. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>This explains why Nina Kulagina’s telekinetic abilities “worked better in an atmosphere of friendly mutual trust and belief.”</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Furthermore,<br><br>All conscious processes are capable of moving much more quickly, and thereby exhibiting higher intelligence and love, where energy itself is moving much more quickly. <br><br>Clearly, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>studies such as the Maharishi effect show us that an experienced group of meditators were actually able to make a definite decrease in the amount of violent acts committed in a given city; ultimately, they made the aetheric energy vibrate more quickly in that area. To put it in more familiar language, we could say that together, we constantly choose whether we will create harmony or fear in our own lives, and this directly affects all forms of life on Earth as a whole.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> And if you are one of the majority who believes that life must exist at least somewhere else besides the Earth, then you should know that our love affects all of the Universe in some way.</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <br><br> Of course, as Backster said, there are those who will dismiss such findings as Hokus pokus, no matter how much research is done into this, or how many graphs, charts and studies are cited. <br><br> But then again of course, these are mainly those borne of the 'mainstream science' genre, where surprise surprise,the science is irrelevant, its the money that counts.<br><br> Full article ; <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/c303.htm">ascension2000.com/Converg...I/c303.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Back to where this thread was initially coming from.

Postby Pants Elk » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:04 pm

Getting back to anger: I believe righteous anger is not only positive, it's necessary. Compassion, empathy, sympathy, understanding - these do not alone lead to action. In fact, they can hinder it to the point of "forgive them father, they know not what they do ..."<br>F'rinstance. As much as I respect David Ray Griffin on the printed page, his personal appearances seem like a cruelly wasted opportunity, just because of his lack of righteous anger. He delivers this terrible, unanswerable case for the Bush administration being a bunch of murderous, treasonous crooks, but he does it with a collegiate "knowing smile" that elicits nothing more than in-joke laughter from his audience, or, at worst, some mild tut-tutting. What the 9/11 truth movement needs is some publicly expressed, massively informed, righteous ANGER. Waving placards isn't enough. Networking with like-minded individuals isn't enough. If there is a "9/11 truth movement", it's a movement without a leader. Where is *our* "I have a dream"? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: always

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:02 pm

Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were all BRITISH "citizens" when they acquired their slaves. <br><br>They were British citizens when they betrayed their own country to the French, Spanish and Dutch. Traitors, not patriots all of them.<br><br><br>Bush's company was a front for major American banks who bankrolled the nazis and the biggest American corporations funded them. That's good enough for me. It's how fascism operates and Prescott would be very proud to see his offspring bringing corporatism (fascism) home to the land of the robber baons where it all began.<br><br>cheers<br><br>Eric<br><br>How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power <br><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html">www.guardian.co.uk/usa/st...40,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president <br><br>Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington<br>Saturday September 25, 2004<br>The Guardian <br><br>George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. <br>The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism. <br><br>His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy. <br><br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 10/11/05 1:04 pm<br></i>
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so

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:17 pm

So you're saying that without Prescott Bush, there would've been no Hitler?<br><br>I think you're stretching your credibility a bit far. Yes, he was heavily financed by fascist organizations in the states, but dollar for dollar he received much much more support from his European allies than he could have from his american businessmen counterparts.<br><br>It seems you want to make Hitler all about america, when the truth is that Hitler was an international creation that had as little to do with America as he did with Austrailia. <br><br>Americans didn't create Hitler, they funded him once he was already there. <br><br>You didn't answer the question at all, you ran off in rhetorical circles again.<br><br>So let me ask again,<br>How is Hitler all America's fault? How is it that America shoulders the blame from your point of view, more than others who financed him more, or his own people, who elected him?<br><br>I think you're just caught up in a general antiamericanism that you're making excuses to justify, when the truth is Fascism and Elitism and Colonialism, etc, have always been with mankind and are no more an American creation than Hot Dogs are. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: so

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:42 pm

"So you're saying that without Prescott Bush, there would've been no Hitler?"<br><br>There would have been no blitzkreig, no invasions, no World War II without him. War costs big money. Just the same as there would have been no 9/11 and no fascist expansion wars in Iraq and Afghanistan without the US supreme court decision to appoint little master Bush.<br><br>Hitler only got 30% of the votes cast, Bush got 51% which gives you some idea of the relative political intelligence of the two countries.<br><br>What makes me believe Americans were primarily responsible for Hitler is the fact they tried exactly the same trick in the USA at exactly the same time. Hitler was used to get rid of a left wing elected government in Bavaria, Butler to get rid of FDR.<br><br>The History Channel The Plot to Overthrow FDR VHS <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=42344">store.aetv.com/html/produ...l?id=42344</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>THE BUSINESS PLOT TO OVERTHROW ROOSEVELT <br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm">www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>Daily Kos: The Real Plot to Overthrow FDR's America<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/27/112936/440">www.dailykos.com/story/20...112936/440</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>Fascism is the direct interference in the political process of corporations, America epitomises that movement (think JP Morgan and so forth).<br><br>The massive nineteenth century expansion of American wealth into a few criminal hands was the perfect breeding ground for anti-democratic, fascist forces very much alive today and seeking a global takeover. Rumsfeld and Cheney are officers in that particular army.<br><br><br>I don't regard the United States as the root of all evil or the source, just the epitome of it. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 10/11/05 3:51 pm<br></i>
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jeezus, but you like to shift gears.

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:58 pm

I don't disagree that the current neo-con alliance and their former masters/ancestors were fascists, nor that they helped make the monster of Germany.<br><br>I disagree that they did it by themselves.<br><br>Prescott Bush wasn't nearly as rich then as the Bushes today are, much of this is because of WW2 and their profiteering from it. The point is that the Bush clan didn't have nearly enough money to be completely responsible for Hitler by themselves. <br><br>There are math issues here. Hitler received most of his financing the same way all world leaders do, from Banks. IF anyone should bear the brunt of the responsibility, it should be them, not "Americans".<br><br>I'm saying you need to check your math if you're laboring under the delusion that Hitler got most of his funding from America. You'll find, on reflection, that the majority of his funding came from Western and Northern European banking families, and that the American contributions, while "evil" yes, were drops in the bucket comparatively speaking.<br><br>What I'm saying is that the Bushes and Hitler have the same financial backers, mostly in Switzerland, and that it has less to do with mutual support from each other, and more to do with support from mutual friends in Europe: REAL old money post-aristocrats. And that without funding from these European assholes, the Bushes would still be small fries. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: jeezus, but you like to shift gears.

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:08 pm

"I disagree that they did it by themselves"<br><br>They didn't, the Kruup family and British aristocracy were involved too. No doubt the sources you mentioned put up money also. Bush was only a front man for American banks as I said.<br><br>I think I've done very well in making a case that the United States is MUCH more a source of anti-democratic than democratic forces. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Er...Eric...you're right about the past...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:44 pm

...but as I said last night, MY point anyway is that we can't change the past, we can only go from here. I don't think you can fight a completely negative battle--you can't keep saying we're against the PNAC, against the NWO, etc. You have to give people something to be FOR, something to fight FOR. And while I certainly agree that the US as the historic entity it was did NOT live up to the ideals of liberty and equality there is no reason not to NOW take those up as standards and fight to make them a reality for all. The totalitarian pricks believe that the people, which means mostly everyone, cannot govern themselves, so they must be governed. What I believe is that people CAN govern themselves, if they are willing to take the responsibility. If sufficient numbers of them are not, if they always want to have someone else take care of them, then the totalitarians will win. 35 years ago, at the age of 18, I wrote "The obverse side of benevolent paternalism is tyranny." I didn't have a lot of worldly experience under my belt--but I had overprotective parents. And I had learned that if I took 50 bucks from them to pay a parking ticket, I would never hear the end of it, and they would tell me what to do with my car and my money. In short, they'd run my life. If I went to work and earned the 50 bucks and paid the ticket and never told them about it, I'd run my life. It wasn't worth it to me to take 'gifts' from them because they always had strings. Hell, they had steel cables.<br><br>We can pick it up with both hands and actually get for ourselves what we were promised--the opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in a country where we rule (demo = the people, kratia = rule) and the gubmint consists of modestly compensated hired hands who serve at our discretion and if they don't do their jobs well or overstep their job description, they're down at Cheesyburger asking "Want curly fries with that?" <br><br>In the end it doesn't really matter whether the US leads this movement because it isn't just an American matter. The Basques, the Zulus, the Kazakhs, the Inuit--they all are entitled to govern themselves as they see fit. As Theoden said to Saruman in "Lord of the Rings", no one has the right to rule over me and mine for their own profit and to my disadvantage. Government is a social contract resting on consent of the governed, not a divine right.<br><br>Again, Eric, if you can think of a better POSITIVE cause to rally under, please tell me what it is. The US is a big ship and it isn't going to turn on a dime, but it's never going to turn if all we do is recount the failures of the past. That's failing in the present. Not that we shouldn't KNOW the past but what we've done up until this moment does not doom us to do it from this moment.<br><br>Maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe the determinists/fatalists are right. I don't see any way to find out, however, without acting as if they are wrong.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Er...Eric...you're right about the past...

Postby eric144 » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:02 pm

Banned<br><br>That's a fantastic analogy of the $50 parking ticket and I think it points the way ahead. I am coming to believe the only transformation possible is an individual one. <br><br>Romans 12:2<br><br>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.<br><br>I am not a church kind of person at all but I am beginning to see why Paul was regarded as the master of Christian doctrine. One light at a time and eventually the darkness will disperse.<br><br>all the best<br><br>Eric<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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now we move.

Postby Homeless Halo » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:05 pm

Now this is movement in the right direction, that is, in a direction.<br><br>Back when I was in junior high school and wanking constantly between my involvement in geekish hobbies...I once owned a playing card that said:<br><br>Those that fear the dark have never seen what the light can do. <p></p><i></i>
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We agree on that, Eric...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:06 pm

....that it starts with individuals deciding they can make a difference...and here's another analogy you might like:<br><br>Let's all emulate The Little Engine That Could.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :p --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Sorry Halo...

Postby banned » Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:08 pm

...we were posting simultaneously so I didn't see your post.<br><br>Actually I was always petrified my dad, who knew I read under the covers by flashlight at night and was always trying to catch me in the act, was going to open the door one night when I was wanking not reading.<br><br>But I get your meaning <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> . <p></p><i></i>
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