utopian daydreams for an armageddon afternoon

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utopian daydreams for an armageddon afternoon

Postby survival » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:24 am

<br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:gray;font-family:helvetica;font-size:medium;"><br><br>what causes most problems? wealth and poverty<br>wealth is overpay is theft is overpower is tyranny is evil is arrogance is crime is madness is danger - giants stomping people like ants<br>poverty is underpay is theft is underpower is slavery is anger is crime is mafiaism is druglords is terrorism is danger<br>daydream: limiting fortunes to US$10 million and using the money taken, to reduce underpay, would get rid of the worst of wealth and poverty, getting rid of the worst of the madness and danger, increasing democracy and freedom and sanity<br>overpay starts at around US$2 million, so a $10 million ceiling would still leave plenty of room for theft, for grab-all-you-can, for whatever-i-get-is-mine, for i'm-better-than-you, for hustle-and-conquer<br>if everyone was paid the same hourly rate, everyone including housewives and students would get US$15 an hour, every family in the world working average hard would have annual income of US$75,000 [doubling every 12 years] - no overpowerful tyrants abusing power, no desperately underpaid poor clawing their way up, over your dead body<br>the world of money like a swimming pool, plenty of water for everyone<br>after all, everyone works, right?<br>take the person working average hard for an hour - no one can work much harder than that in an hour<br>and no one can work more than twice as many hours as the average of 50 hours a week<br>so where's the wrong in limiting pay to twice the average pay?<br>and then you eliminate most problems, by eliminating overpay and underpay<br>and overpay and underpay are just theft, so eliminating them has to be good for everyone<br>it's been done before and it's always been good for everyone<br>extreme wealth and poverty have always been bad for everyone - communism, nero, french revolution<br>the only way to be sane is to follow the dictates of sanity<br>sanity says limiting overpay is good, always has been, always will be<br>because there is a limit to the amount one person can contribute to society by their work and therefore a limit to how much is fair for them to take out of society<br>wealth is overpay is theft which generates violence which destroys the state - so wealth is seditious, traitorous, unpatriotic, criminal, evil<br>paying people for natural gifts is penalising all the others for not having natural gifts<br>paying people for scarcity is penalising all the others for that scarcity - new technology is always scarce<br>as it is, an hour's pay ranges from 1c to $10 million - on a graph, with the lowest hourly pay at one millimetre, the highest hourly pay is 1000 kilometres [a billion millimetres], the average pay is one metre, and 90% of people get between 10 centimetres and one millimetre - the swimming pool is empty, too shallow for anyone to swim in, although there is enough income for everyone to be welloff<br>under equal hourly pay rate, 99% of people are better paid - and 100% of people have 100th the violence and disturbance<br>and if you could get this through to just one person a month, everyone in the world would know it in just 33 months, just by word-of-mouth<br>and if people could see sense, everyone would love it<br>nice dream, eh?<br>call it the sanity revolution, call it fairpay capitalism<br>are people's wits too dulled by centuries of pain and suffering to imagine anything that good?<br>have you been powerless so long you cant imagine yourself doing anything? <br>sit back and watch armageddon crescendo!<br>if 9/11 was the reichstag burning [1930's], what lies ahead?<br>you know that, with pay from 1c to $10 million an hour, you are going to have a war!<br>have you got a grain of leadership, of responsibility, of love and care for your loved ones?<br>use it!<br>at least use it to dream<br>dreaming might lead to strength<br>limiting fortunes to $10 million - who would it hurt? 0.001% - who would it help? 100% would be 100 times better off in safety, peace and sanity<br>want more info? www.globalhappiness.org [not an org]<br>you dont have to follow anyone<br>you have to follow your own good sense<br></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <p></p><i></i>
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questons...

Postby robertdreed » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:10 pm

A fw of many questions- <br><br>Who confiscates the wealth?<br><br>Who gets it instead?<br><br>Who administers the spending?<br><br>On what?<br><br>My opinion- these pipe dreams usually boil down to "if I were king, everyone would love me." <br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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reply to robertdreed

Postby survival » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:26 pm

<br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:gray;font-family:helvetica;font-size:medium;">questions... <br><br>A few of many questions- <br><br>Who confiscates the wealth?<br><br>Who gets it instead?<br><br>Who administers the spending?<br><br>On what?<br><br>My opinion- these pipe dreams usually boil down to "if I were king, everyone would love me."<br><br>thank you robertdreed for your reply - i cant reply if i dont get a reply - so my gratitude to you - and if the world gets saved, the world's gratitude to you - can you imagine what it is like to have what appears to me [who may or may not be dumb] to be a practical sane simple easy doable plan to destroy most human troubles, and to have no outlet to speak of it? - no replyers to reply to? - i would appreciate more of the many questions you have<br>my experience has been that if i do get replies, and i reply to them, the replies dry up - i hope that wont happen this time<br>who confiscates the wealth? essentially, the 99% of people who will be better paid under fairpay capitalism - laws which will limit fortunes are passed by the will of the 99% - and by the will of the portion of the 1% who are sane enough to realise they will be a 100 times happier under fairpay capitalism<br>suggested methods: [but remember, the feasibility of these are to be judged from an assumption that a 99+% will to decrease underpay/overpay misery has been attained - the first step is developing the will, or spreading the understanding of it]<br>1. overpay part of fortunes [above $10 million] on decease will be inherited by those most severely underpaid, underpowered, enslaved, those being paid the least per unit of work, ie, 1c per hour - this could be effected electronically in this age by immediate transferral to bank accounts - a media campaign to inform everyone that if they are the most underpaid, they will receive money into an account if they open an account - the clause 'on decease' means that money will feed into the world economy gradually, minimising financial shock<br>2. a better method, even easier to administer, is to simply give everyone, overpaid and underpaid, a sum of money - the money to be written into existence - this will have an inflationary effect, which will automatically diminish all overpay fortunes, by, say, 10% - it will also diminish the sum paid to the underpaid, but 90% of the value will still be in it, and the underpaid will be that much better off - say the amount of money in the state was one trillion, and the money was increased by 10% to 1.1 trillion, causing a 10% inflation, and say this meant everyone got $1000 - this would still be worth $900 to the most underpaid and to everyone - this money would feed the economy through all levels from bottom to top, increasing markets, increasing market confidence, increasing social stability, reducing anger at the bottom and reducing psychopathological power at the top - the effect of diminishing fortunes will unfortunately be limited by the investment by the overpaid in inflationproof investments - this inflationary giving of money can be repeated until the desired social equity is attained - as it progresses everyone will get experience of the enormous benefits to all - increased safety and community for the overpaid, increased security and peace for all, reduced secret police costs!<br>3. another method, to diminish all overfortunes by 1/100th the first year, 1/99th the second year, and so on till the other-earned part of the fortune is all gone - this, again, will be gradual, avoiding financial shocks - this could be repeated every 100 years, giving, in the first half of the century, opportunity to accumulate overpay fortunes, and ensuring, at the end of every century, the full reduction to equity<br>4. annual income can be limited - no one can work more than twice as hard as the average worker, who works 50 hours a week, so incomes limited to twice the average would not be unjust - if people cant be that sensible all at once, incomes can be limited to 1000 times the average, then, as understanding and experience of the enormous benefits blossom, to 100 times the average, and so on<br>the enemy is people relying on the status quo for a guide to what is sane and sensible - people will dismiss this idea unheard as soon as they see it is far from the status quo - a remarkable faith in the status quo, when the status quo is war and weaponry escalated to world wars, terrorism, suicide bombings and power to destroy the planet 60 times over, and escalating to nuclear winter and universal extinction! - so there is a weakness to the plan - the mindlessness of humanity - to be fought with mindfulness - by heroes of the mind<br><br>the governments administer the distribution - you are going to say: but the govt will be corrupt - but i reply that the strong clear firm will of humanity for the happiness of equity will control the govt - even many people in the govt will be understanding the benefits of fairpay - or an international agency controlled by govts can do the distribution - if the people are not fools, they will be vigilant enough to have their auditors and 'spies' in the organisation ensuring things go as the general will intends - remember that, since 99% will benefit financially, and 100% will have 100fold increase of happiness, there will be few enemies of fairpay capitalism - and the enormous benefits to all will soon erode the numbers of enemies of fairpay capitalism<br>this all hinges on whether people can be convinced of anything new, whether people can think and learn to think - the plan is very clearly very good, but thinking - thinking things through from basic principles - is still rare - learning from experience is still very rare - the unanimous lesson of history, that justice is very good for everyone, and unbridled thievery is very bad for everyone, has not been noticed in 1000s of years - there is still the absolute blind faith in unbridled thievery, grab-all-you-can, whatever-i-get-is-mine, though my contribution to the social pool of wealth is limited, my rights of reward are unlimited<br>the money will be spent by people on whatever they want - they have earned the money - it is theirs - they will spend it on what people spend money on - necessities and pleasures - and i hope no one wants to come back with the argument that if you give the superpoor money they will only spend it on booze - the poor are no different, no worse than you, no less intelligent, no less conscientious, the only difference is they have been robbed of more of their earnings than you have - which means more of their fairshare of power, of freedom, of dignity, of social standing, of education, of health, of safety, of necessities and pleasures<br>and dont say: people will never get this - strive to get it yourself, and when you have got it, say, if i can get it, others can get it - reality has been drilling its way into the human brain for millenia - you never know when reality will get through - humanity will suffer until reality gets through - so try hard - for your private personal pursuit of happiness - there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come - look at the idea of the car, how in 100 years it has swelled and manifested! - if hedgehogs got the idea of traffic, hedgehog fatalities would disappear overnight<br>a key point is that, if a govt took 90% of income off 90% and gave it to the rest, everyone in the world will already agree that that would cause 100-fold upheaval, problems, danger and misery for all - civil war, the govt would need secret police, spies in the populace, etc etc - everyone can see that areas where there is extreme overpay and underpay like the middle east are perennial trouble spots, and more egalitarian societies like scandinavia and australasia are more peaceful spots - everyone can see that every empire has been strong and grown, though small, with small inequity [cato, jefferson], and been weak, and crumbled, though large and 'powerful', with extreme overpay and underpay [nero, bush] - therefore everyone 'knows' already that happiness will be 100-fold by removing the extreme inequity [=tyranny and slavery]<br>with inequity at a factor of one billion [pay range for 100 hours' work from $1 billion to $1], and rising daily, with millenia of the-rich-get-richer-and-the-poor-get-poorer [with the rich working less and the poor working more], someone has got to notice sooner or later! - we are intelligent! - we can understand!<br>if only we werent so bad at seeing the big picture! - 'those who dont see the big picture are asleep' heraclitus - 'small things are easier for people' plato - 'there are a 1000 [more like a billion] striking at the branches of the tree of problems for every one striking at the root' thoreau - 'cant see the forest for the trees' - [cant see the tree of life for the leaves] - 'swallow camels, strain out gnats' - 'hairsplitting' - 'a committee will pass a $200 million budget in ten minutes and haggle over the petty cash for three hours' lawrence peters - can you see the mona lisa by years of looking through a straw? - people at RI [and everywhere else] are spending years looking at the big picture through straws - seeing katrina, bush, aliens, etc, etc, etc, and not seeing the simple big picture - saying: where do we go from here? and not seeing this plan, which everyone already agrees with! - talk about frustrating! <br>robertdreed, you make a good point about 'if i were king, everyone would love me' - this plan works strictly by consensus - no king - a general will in humanity to do the blindingly obvious for once - no leader - no guru - no followers - everyone a leader, learning and passing on, out of a sense of responsibility, of manliness, of womanliness, of humanliness, of sanity, of their own good sense, of sturdy hearts and minds, of the yearning to live in a dignified and sane manner, the yearning to be free of the horrors and shames ceaselessly generated by the chaos we have - of course if we like the chaos and mayhem and secret police [CIA] and suffering and insecurity and ceaseless social convulsions, we are happy and there is nothing that needs to be done<br>i know jefferson is out of favour now but the american dream was based on limitation of fortunes - first thing they did after signing the declaration of independence was take steps to limit fortunes - prohibit entail and primogeniture, fix clergy salaries - defeated by the corporation, which jefferson and lincoln warned about - the point is, it is the foundation of the american dream - it is patriotic to limit fortunes - it was obvious to jefferson that european tyranny was based on overpay - money is power - overpay is overpower - a dream of a land of the free had to be based on limitation of fortunes to the maximum that an individual can contribute to society by their work - not enough people understood, then or later, but we can always begin! - the fact that jefferson understood it means that the idea's time is close - the people for the first time in history have enough economic and historical information to be able to grasp this fundamental idea of survival and happiness - macarthur applied it in japan and look at japan now - marshall applied it after ww2 and saved the world from another depression and another hitler - henry ford applied it to worker wages [the worker is the consumer] and people/ruler friction decreased<br>'test everything, prove everything, and hold on to what is good' - and never give up testing, doubting, proving, checking - the truth will stand up to your tests - the more testing you do, the more certain you can be - test and test and test!<br>you know and everyone knows that if you have 1000 sweets and 100 children and you tell them to grab all they can and grab from each other too, that you will have scratched faces, tears and children pushed down, and no child will have leisure to eat one sweet in peace - you know that everyone in society is practising grabbing all they can although they know that their contribution to wealth by their work is limited - you know that no one asks themselves, can i accept this money from inheritance, lottery or profit, when i havent earned it, which means someone else has earned it, which means i am stealing their pay, which means violence and disturbance for me? - you know that if you steal everyone's wallets you have more troubles than benefits, more losses than gains - you know that if one child has two lunchboxes, another none, the first child's gains are only more food than he can eat and an endless fight, his losses are friendship, play, and leisure to eat even one lunch<br>well, what do you think now? has anything here answered any of your questions satisfactorily? have you still hope that this plan might still make sense at the end of conscientious, sturdyminded, insistent enquiry into it?</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: reply to robertdreed - robert? anyone?

Postby sceneshifter » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:38 am

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;font-family:helvetica;font-size:xx-small;">anyone going to read this?</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: reply to robertdreed - robert? anyone?

Postby StarmanSkye » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:46 am

No disrespect intended -- but your simplistic, single-dimensional grasp of what an incredibly complex system of relationships an economy is renders your solutions impractical and impossible. What you are suggesting is nothing less than absolute, total government wages and price control -- on everything from rents, investment profits, raw materials, the market price of food, even what someone can charge to cut your lawn, plow your driveway, fix your car, or what they can sell a remodeled house they labored four years on.<br><br>IF you had several years of practical experince running your own business you'd have a thousand times more insight on why your 'plan' isn't feasable.<br><br>Economic inequality isn't going to be substantially addressed until the Fed ponzai scheme and corporate privelege are eliminated -- and THAT won't happen until the citizens empower themselves to reform a corrupt, undemocratic government and unjust legal system -- AND change the lucrative war and smuggling-rackets into something helpful to peace, progress and justice. One reason why the Reagan, Bush(s) and Clinton admins have authorized Police State powers is to have unprecedented authority to maintain the status quo of 'order' as the economic system begins to collapse under the pressure of inherant contradictions, injustices, inflexibility, corruption, elitist abuses, inefficiencies, deferred true costs, and the impossible-to-repay 8+ trillion dollar debt. Any half-assed attempt to enforce massive structual readjustment will result in the kind of chaos and feudalism now seen in Haiti, Kosova, Iraq, and Afghanistan -- the latest scenes of America's economic and ideological experiments. Do you really think our officials, ie 'the government' are trustworthy or credible or competant enough to oversee a massive economic adjustment of the kind your plans require? There isn't even any way to insure that a massive 'gifting' of everyone $1000 would be distributed fairly or not be corrupted. But even worse -- it wouldn't do ANYTHING to change the relative wealth inequality -- the top 1 percent of the population would still own about 35 percent of the nation's wealth, and the bottom 40 percent would own about 1 percent of the nation's wealth among them. Not only that -- I can just about guarantee that after every man, woman and child (including undocumented illegal aliens, those with fake and stolen IDs, fugitives and suspicious Arabs wary of another Fed betrayal? How whould THOSE folks claim their economic-justice 'gift'?) got their $1000, the consumer price index would immediately spike as the prices of everything rose -- likely averaging close to 20 percent inflation for a family of four earning a moderate $20,000 per year (or 10 percent for a single wage-earner earning $10,000). Just printing more money is NOT going to readjust wealth. <br><br>Your 'plan', if it included price and wage controls, would absolutely kill entrepreneurship -- at least of the 'official' and non-black-market variety.<br><br>America's re-education of basic economic and political principles will be a long-slow process, as we didn't get so off-track from the ideas of honest money, small accountable government and personal autonomy overnight. IF the US really was interested in social and economic justice, ie., reducing infant mortality, providing medical care to everyone, increasing literacy, eliminating homelessness, and insuring everyone has the right to a job and the base necesities of life, then the US could learn a LOT from the people of Cuba. How much further progress could Cuba have made if the US hadn't imposed a cruel, vicious and vindictive economic sanction for the past 40+ years, just to punish the gracious people of Cuba for the 'danger' of their good example to the Carribean?<br><br>As far as that goes -- I don't recall the people of the US ever being asked their opinion on this policy, or it being a topic of widespread public debate, or even being asked to vote on it. We've never been polled or given a chance to vote on the major wars and secret wars, on the defense budget, on foreign policy, on chemical and biological weapons, or on supporting conservation and alternative energy funding, on supporting Gladio or overthrowing foreign governments or training death squads or giving corporations priveleges and political influence.<br><br>So much for 'democracy'. But without genuine representive democracy and honest elections, we'll NEVER have economic justice.<br><br>BTW: You recently posted almost no one 'talks' about the issue of wealth disparity. I strongly disagree. The whole field of Marxism and socialism is intricately involved with this important topic. 'Wobblies' ring a historic bell?<br>The Libertarian, Progressive and Green parties emphasize economic justice. There are over 3.6 million google web-resource hits just on 'wealth disparity'.<br><br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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Re: reply to robertdreed - robert? anyone?

Postby Dreams End » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:17 am

wow, survival. You write just like sceneshifter. You two should get along well. <p></p><i></i>
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somebody text me?

Postby robertdreed » Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:10 am

I think it's ironic for anyone to complain about taking more than their fair share of resources, while at the same time resorting to wallpapering topic pages with huge font sizes and loud colors for their rants. <br><br>And I'm sticking with my own personal income tax plan: first $50,000 free, everything above that 50-50. Flat tax. No upper limit on wealth and investment, as long as you split what you generate 50-50 in order to maintain a high standard of technological infrastructure, medical care, environmental protection, and conservation of a natural legacy for posterity for the collective society that has enabled you to become so fabulously wealthy. <p></p><i></i>
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reply to starman skye

Postby sceneshifter » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:34 pm

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:black;font-family:helvetica;font-size:small;"><br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><br><br>thank you, thank you, robertdreed, for replying extensively to my insane scheme in huge fonts and loud colours - i sometimes use 'medium-size', sometimes 'small' - i thought the grey was nice - i thought the blue was nice and easy to read but apparently im wrong - maybe im a bit dyslexic - [dyslexics are supposed to find black and white hard and are helped by wearing tinted glasses, of a tint special to them - i cant read music fast enough to play it]<br><br>it just shows how little words convey - how little words convey compared to what the author thinks is conveyed<br><br>main points of reply, briefly, before i get carried away<br><br>i am not suggesting the direct alteration of hourly payrates to the average, by massive restructuring, which might indeed be catastrophic, but indirect, through limitation of fortunes - limitation of fortunes is much easier bureaucratically and can be designed to impact gently on the economy - if no one is getting more than their fairshare, there is no moneypower to increase injustice - money becomes a lever by which more money is stolen - money makes money - second million easier to make than first $1000 - limitation of fortunes to the maximum a person can contribute to social wealth in a lifetime puts a limit on this - hourly payrates will tend to equalise - payrates will not endlessly disequalise, as now<br><br>you say it is necessary for citizens to empower themselves - but you dont know how they can - the only way they can is by disempowering the overpaid - by limiting fortunes to justice - and this is doable and has excellent results for people - the limitation of fortunes can be introduced gradually, coming down from billions to $4 million over a 20 year period - or even more gently, by removing the other-earned part of overfortunes on decease, thus feeding money into the system gradually - <br><br>i dont think you understand the gifting of $1000 idea - it would have an inflationary effect, and this would reduce the value of overfortunes - it would also devalue the $1000 gift [really a return of earned and stolen money], but most of the $1000 would still be good - eg if the money supply was increased by 1%, it would devalue overfortunes 1% and reduce the real value of the $1000 to $990 - still very valuable to people at the bottom - it is administratively simple because there is no deciding who is to get the money - everyone gets it, rich and poor - for the rich, the inflation will have a bigger downward effect than the $1000 have an upward effect - for the underpaid, it will be the other way round - govts causing inflation by increasing the money supply is very common - it is a sneaky tax - <br><br>govt will be empowered, govt will be interested in social and economic justice as soon as the overpowerful stop being more powerful than the govt - actually the govt will not need to be interested in social justice because the limitation of fortunes will raise the underpay as it lowers the overpay<br><br>people will be re-empowered by the limitation of power of the overpaid - <br><br>you say there cannot be economic justice without democracy - there cannot be democracy without economic justice - without limitation of overpay - as soon as you prevent overpay/overpower, you have democracy - even in a socalled dictatorship - the people have always been stronger than the plutocracy [french and russian revolutions] - so what we need is a firm clear strong confident determined will in the people - which we can have because 1. everyone already agrees this will work - I prove this 2. 99% are underpaid 3. 100% will be 100 times happier - I prove everyone already believes this 4. we avoid extinction, war, crime, violence, danger, etc <br><br>you want to allow fabulous wealth - you havent come to grips with the notion [which is new ] of overpay - common sense tells us that the social pool of wealth is made by human work - common sense tells us that the contribution of one person is limited to the max they can work - no one can work more than 100 hours week for 50 years - that is, 250,000 hours - no one can work more than 10% harder [if that] than the world average hardness of work in a unit of time - the wealth created by an hour's work is equal to the total world annual hours of work [including housewives and students] divided into the annual world income - 5 trillion hours divided into $50 trillion [2000AD] - doubling every 12 years or so at 6% global inflation - in 2006AD, around US$15 an hour, or US$75,000 per family - this gives us a max earning of $4 million per person - or $2 million if we want to discourage overwork/underplay - [a person working 100 hours a week is like fishing so long you have no time to cook and eat]<br><br>why do you want to allow fabulous wealth? - you are still thinking in the old way that fabulous wealth is a nice harmless freedom - but money is power, and power is corruption and tyranny - undemocracy - why is it so hard for everyone to imagine wealth is bad? - wealth is everyone's dream - still - they are fascinated by it so much they cant see the necessary consequences of it - inequality of money/power can only grow endlessly - which means tyranny, corruption, underpay and violence [war, weaponry and extinction] grow endlessly - selfearned money is good - as good as the things it can buy - it is love of overpay that is the root of all evils - there is as little wrong with money as there is in growing food and eating it - money is just a convenient [divisable, portable, nonperishable] artificial exchange item that facilitates exchange - we need exchange because we specialise in labour [for the efficiency of specialisation] - otherearned money [overpay] is the root of most evils - the saying 'love of money is the root of all evils' clearly doesnt mean it is bad to enjoy your earned paycheck - so 'money' in the saying means overpay - other-earned money - we know many ways that money transfers legally from earners to nonearners - we have to block all those ways [present and future] by limiting fortunes to the max earnable - <br><br>amount of work a person can do is limited - so fortunes should be limited - or else it becomes theft, and theft leads to violence - and violence is escalative, as both sides try to prevail - the robbed to get their earnings back, the fabulously wealthy to hold on to what they deceive themselves [and others] is theirs - escalation of war and weaponry to extinction - we have had escalation of war and weaponry for 1000s of years - isnt it time we guessed the cause? - jefferson did - it is surely obvious that european tyranny would have been nonexistent without fabulous wealth - money is power - overpay is overpower, tyranny, corruption, violence - the american dream was founded on limitation of fortunes, and, if jefferson had had his way, people would have been educated in the necessity of limitation of fortunes in a land of the free - instead, wealth was free to become fabulous and now america is a tyranny in the [tattered] sheep's clothing of democracy in name<br><br>don't these points have an impact? - they seem very clear and certain to me<br><br>we still think that fabulous wealth is a harmless addition to society - but overpay takes 90% of world wealth, and 99% of world happiness [peace and safety] - the 1% overpaid take over 90% of wealth out of the social pool of wealth - they drain the pool - 90% are left with less than a 10th of what they earn, less than $7500 - 3 billion [50%] are left with less than a 100th of what they earn, less that $750 a year - 1 billion [16%] are left with less than a 1000th of what their work contributes to the pool of wealth, less than $75 a year - <br><br>so who cares? - we care, if we are sensible - not because we care whether these people live or die - we dont, lets face it, let us admit that we care more about our cut finger than the deaths of 250,000 earthquake victims - but because they are angry and violent, and naturally [and justifiably] attack the overpaid and anyone richer than them, reducing the world to an ever-escalating nightmare of violence and unsafety, requiring endless labour and cost of lives and money to try to control them - and they cannot be controlled - the superunderpaid are sending up their strongest, most violent survivors up through every level of society, tearing and rending, till they reach the top, where they tyrannise over everyone and govts, and where they are forced to fight endlessly all the new arrivals from the bottom, and therefore have no time to govern well [and have no inclination or aptitude to, anyway]<br><br>The human says: I want the right and freedom to work hard and enjoy wealth as the reward of my hard work - I will never allow anyone to take this right away - but this is selfdeception - very selfdestructive selfdeception - how hard has he worked? - what is his average hourly rate of pay? - Bill Gates's average over his worklife is $500,000 an hour - 50,000 times the average - has he worked 50,000 times harder than the average, per unit of time? - of course not - the causes of his overpay are known - new technology always causes overpay - because, with new technology, like electricity and pc's, in huge demand and in the youth of its supply, prices soar well above costs - demand is high, supply is small, prices are high - the fabuous wealth has nothing to do with hardness of work or talent or genius or brains - of course he couldnt be a total dumby - but everyone will realise that there are 1000s as brainy talented skilled hardworking as Bill Gates who dont have his overpay - <br><br>the consequences of this selfdeception is overpay/underpay ever-growing, overpower/underpower evergrowing, violence, escalative, war, crime - and extinction for a cymbal-crashing crescendo - inequality grows limitlessly - money is power, power grabs more money, and so on - revolutions knock it back a bit, but it soon gets away again - if the oceans were as unequal as money is now, the ocean crests would be 4,000,000 kilometres high!!!!! - [ten times past the moon] - a very sick ride for all - you might be thrown to the top of a crest any time, but very rarely and not for long - obviously happiness will be 100-fold if the seas are calmed by limitation of overpay - if the greatest underpay is graphed at one millimetre, the greatest overpay is graphed at 1000 kilometres, a million metres, a billion millimetres - 5 times the height of the atmosphere - can we really conceive such super hyper extremity? - or has it gone beyond what we can think about? - <br><br>we simpleminded, innocent, foolish creatures, still 98.4% chimanzees, with our thin human brain, our mammal brain and our reptile brain, are so fascinated, delighted, captivated, charmed, dazzled, in love with, the pretty picture of fabulous wealth that we will not hear one harsh word about it - none of its enormous evil consequences will we hear - the steady escalation of war and weaponry over centuries to the eve of extinction has not disturbed our total heartgiving devotion to and worship of this fabulous wealth - billionaires are our gods and heroes - we'd be extremely chuffed if Bill came to dinner - the fact that 90% are robbed of over 90% of their earnings is totally uninteresting to us - we are looking up, not down - the daily experience of being on this ocean with 4,000,000 kilometre high crests has not made us see or even suspect a connection with fabulous wealth - despite a peak hourly rate of $10 million, we do not accept even the possibility of overpay - overpay is a concept that may have a future, but it has no past <br><br>although we know that we ourselves would be plenty mad if our income was permanently reduced to a 100th, we somehow manage to think that 90% of humans on between a 10th and a 1000th of what they earn will just sit there peacefully - why are there palestinian terrorists and no swedish terrorists? - why is the Middle East defense budget around 50% of GNP and swedish defense around 2%? - why is scandinavian capital formation so high and middle east capital formation so low? - why is income growth in japan and germany [with 50% and 36% less inequity than america] so much higher? <br><br>a strength of this plan is that this plan will work even if people are 100% selfish - the only way it wont work is if we cannot or will not think - which unfortunately is likely - 'how lucky for leaders that people dont think' hitler - 'how rarely do we ever really think'<br><br>'my way, right or wrong' is not a good strategy for happiness - 'the right way, mine or not'<br><br>the greatest general is the one who faces the most vital facts - and hunts for vital facts to face</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <p></p><i></i>
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pay scales

Postby robertdreed » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Why would anyone opt for the headaches and responsibilities of being a CEO or a neurosurgeon, if there was no more material payoff for it than for being a mid-level IT worker, or running an MRI machine? <p></p><i></i>
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Re: reply to starman skye

Postby StarmanSkye » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:44 pm

"why do you want to allow fabulous wealth? - you are still thinking in the old way that fabulous wealth is a nice harmless freedom..."<br><br>????<br>I give up.<br>Starman <p></p><i></i>
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Its a question of education.

Postby slimmouse » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:58 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why would anyone opt for the headaches and responsibilities of being a CEO or a neurosurgeon, if there was no more material payoff for it than for being a mid-level IT worker, or running an MRI machine?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Education and priorities.<br><br> I have to say, that I like sceneshifters arguments. This isnt about Socialism, Marxism, or any other stereotypical 'ism' that anyone might care to use to counter his argument. Its about common sense. But of course, how do we even begin to explain this in a world gone mad, and controlled essentially by madmen ?<br><br> I find it hard to find too much fault in sceneshifters arguments, other than the fact that in order to achieve the goals, we need a collective mindshift, and re-educate adults, let alone children as to what is important.<br><br> But of course, try mentioning any of this in a classroom. Particularly when the vast majority of our childrens materially indoctrinated peers pose the kind of questions you do RDR.<br><br> Anyone looking for satan these days, need look no further than money, and the subsequent switch in our own priorities that money has created. IMO It has actually been slowly sythesised into our DNA.<br><br> You ask the question why have the hassle ? Just chew on that a while - particularly were you to recognise the fact that we are all essentially part of the same.<br><br> Meanwhile ,would a neurosurgeon be happy cleaning toilets ? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 2/1/06 6:10 pm<br></i>
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Re: Its a question of education.

Postby antiaristo » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:35 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Meanwhile ,would a neurosurgeon be happy cleaning toilets ?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>That's the job they allocated to my father, when he came home after nearly four years as a prisoner of the Emperor of Japan.<br>His bitterness lasted until the end of his days.<br>RIP, dad.<br><br>Sorry for the self-indulgence. What I wanted to say is that we tried this in the UK during the 1970's.<br><br>One year EVERYONE in the country got the same pay raise (six pounds a week).<br><br>We had a top rate of 98% on income, made up of 83% top rate plus an "unearned income surcharge" of 15 percent.<br><br>As Robert says, the distorsions became overpowering. The end result was Thatcher.<br><br>Based on my head, with my commercial experience, and my heart, based on my class, I think Robert is substantially correct. <p></p><i></i>
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Interesting discussion

Postby Asta » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:36 pm

Slimmouse wrote: Meanwhile ,would a neurosurgeon be happy cleaning toilets ?<br><br>Well, no. But one would hope that he would have some sense of respect and compassion for the person who does clean the toilets. <br><br>This has been a most stimulating thread, so much so that I have to re-read it to understand many of the issues and ideas, but it's a really good read. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Alter the pay scale, tax everyone the same.

Postby slimmouse » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:02 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We had a top rate of 98% on income, made up of 83% top rate plus an "unearned income surcharge" of 15 percent.<br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br> Alter the pay scale, and tax everyone at a flat rate ?<br><br> I mean, how much is enough ?<br><br> Proffessional footballers today earning in excess of 100k per week. How does that work ? The world is completely upside down - and I love soccer BTW <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> I have been promising for long enough to post an entire alternative system to the sham that passes for democracy. I will seek permission from its founder this week to post the essential details of how we ALL take back control.<br><br> This of course requires that we all take responsibility - which brings us back of course to the question of "reprogramming" our DNA software thru education.<br><br> Gotta hand it to the PTB in the respect that they reprogrammed us all thru the education system to move in completely the wrong direction.<br><br> I mean, imagine that we had been taught at school the true workings of consciousness, and the nature of creation and the afterlife ?<br><br> Imagine we had never been drawn into corporate consumerism, or Santa Claus, ( Both major money making programmes.) Imagine our playground wasnt full of people playing war games, because we werent programmed to glorify war ? <br><br> Imagine all the people, living life in peace. <br><br> Add into the equation the various ( divide and rule ) religious software programmes - Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etcetera , and various others, and Bingo - where we are today.<br><br> The select ruling the many whilst the people fall witlessly into line , and thru creating peer pressure ( if you dont have nike trainers, or wear the correct clothing, youre a loser ) the people outsheep the sheep. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=slimmouse@rigorousintuition>slimmouse</A> at: 2/1/06 7:06 pm<br></i>
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Hey, Slimmie, I Really Do Love Your Posts, Brother

Postby Floyd Smoots » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:33 pm

Just Imagine that the Bible had NOT been hijacked by the PTB, and you could really "talk" to the creator God. WOW!!! That's kind of what mainstream Christianity is all about (prayer).<br><br>It's NOT about George Bush, Jim & Tammy Baker, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, Robert Schuller, Earnest Angley, Benny Hinn, Creflow Dollar etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum (Add your favorite, most-hated TV preacher here)!!!<br><br>It really is about getting in touch with the One Who made us, Loves us, and Wants us to know Who He Was, Is, and Always Will Be. Trust me in this, at least, MOST of the so-called "denominations", by this time, have been pretty much taken over by the mininions of the (Coming SOON to a Neighborhood Near You) anti-christ. They ARE teaching and preaching total Garbage to their flocks and casual visitors, who are lapping it up like free burgers 'n' beer!!!<br><br>No wonder, these days, no one with a real brain wants anything to do with what they "percieve" as Christianity. Just like here, on this board, it takes a "Rigorous Intuition" to put in the homework hours, read what the Bible "really" has to say, and then, and ONLY then, make up one's mind whether it is Truth or "Dare"; whether it is Reality Exposed, or Venality (look it up, readers), Decomposed.<br><br>Love ya, Slimmie, just askin' ya ta keep an open mind to something that just "might" be the truth you're seeking.<br><br>Da Floydinator<br> <p></p><i></i>
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