Capital and Nature

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Re: Marx was quite clear on money

Postby alloneword » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:19 am

chlamor wrote:And Keynes, while not so outwardly wicked as Milton Friedman, was certainly one of the most revered and presented of the wicked economists that the capital ruler class shoved down our throats.

Absolutely - my quoting of Keynes on Gesell was merely to highlight that even the Usurers 'pin-up boy' couldn't ignore the logic of what Gesell was saying.

I wouldn't dismiss Keynes entirely, though. He was at least aware of the problem and had quite a few interesting things to say, e.g. (this from his 'Economic possibilities for our grandchildren' [pdf!] - 1930):

JMK wrote:I see us free, therefore, to return to some of the most sure and certain principles of religion and traditional virtue-that avarice is a vice, that the exaction of usury is a misdemeanour, and the love of money is detestable, that those walk most truly in the paths of virtue and sane wisdom who take least thought for the morrow. We shall once more value ends above means and prefer the good to the useful. We shall honour those who can teach us how to pluck the hour and the day virtuously and well, the delightful people who are capable of taking direct enjoyment in things, the lilies of the field who toil not, neither do they spin.

But beware! The time for all this is not yet. For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to every one that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.


I'd argue that the time is well up, but not for the reasons he foresaw. ;)

That said, it would be wrong to assume that the interpretation of Keynes as implemented by the usurers/PTB is what he had in mind.

On the same note, Milton Friedman's work, too, was utterly bastardized - we've never had a 'free market' in the way he envisioned it. He was no fool, as (for example) this late interview demonstrates:

Professor Milton Friedman Interviewed by Radio Australia (17 July 1998)

Both were concerned with 'tinkering' with the controls of a vast machine whose fundamental parasitic nature (due to the enshrinement of usury in it's systemic foundations) precludes it from doing anything other than what designed to do - f*ck us over.
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Postby alloneword » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:23 am

Double post - man, this host sux!
Last edited by alloneword on Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby alloneword » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:24 am

chlamor wrote:<Snip>

There is nothing special about money...


Well, on that point (and most of the preceding 'word-salad'), I'll respectfully disagree. :)

You seem to be making the same fundamental error as Marx, as Gesell put it in the passage (did you actually read it?) I linked to: 'he made the mistake of excluding money from the scope of his inquiry'.

It's the failure to recognise this fundamental systemic fault regarding 'what money actually is' (as in: "Where does it come from") that renders your argument invalid, no matter how many sneering comments you make about Gesell or however deep your personal emotional investment in Marxist dogma.

chlamor wrote:It’s not surprising that people looking at money or interest, post festum, regard either or both as having mystical or intrinsic properties.
Oh, but it does! It's a performative sign, a symbol which derives it's power (real, tangible and effective) from our belief in it's efficacy - to give it it's proper name - ***Magic***.

That's an angle pursued in depth by David Hawkes in his essay 'Faust Among the Witches: Towards an Ethics of Representation'. (<-- Jeff, you'll like that one! ;) )
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Um

Postby chlamor » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:11 pm

alloneword wrote:
chlamor wrote:<Snip>

There is nothing special about money...


Well, on that point (and most of the preceding 'word-salad'), I'll respectfully disagree. :)

You seem to be making the same fundamental error as Marx, as Gesell put it in the passage (did you actually read it?) I linked to: 'he made the mistake of excluding money from the scope of his inquiry'.

It's the failure to recognise this fundamental systemic fault regarding 'what money actually is' (as in: "Where does it come from") that renders your argument invalid, no matter how many sneering comments you make about Gesell or however deep your personal emotional investment in Marxist dogma.

_____________________________________________________________
Once upon a time, there were just people and they produced things. That those things were useful is self evident or else people would not have produced them. The nature of their wants, desires or needs is not at issue here. Suffice it to say that the things produced by people had no quality other than that of being useful to themselves. It is also important to note that "people", here, refers to the tribe or clan as there is no basis for distinguishing "atomic" units (self, "immediate" family, etc.) nor is there any foundation for "property", within the tribe or clan. All of that comes later and "trade" always develops between groups of people and not within them.

There is always the possibility, and indeed the likelihood that what one produces for oneself, is also useful to others. There is also the likelihood that the specific territory of one group of people or the specific skills learned by that group or something else unique to it, allows that group to produce a surplus of a particular thing or set of things. That establishes the basis for "trade" between groups. The preconditions for trade are that both have something useful not just for themselves but for the other and that it is sensible to produce more of the one thing within the tribe than it would be practical or even possible to produce the other thing that is being traded for. Early candidates for this trade may be salt or specific types of tools, or whatever.

The conditions for that original trade are incidental. How much of one thing “trades” or exchanges for how much of another may be entirely arbitrary in the first instance. It does not take long, however, for the things that are produced in surplus to be gauged in relation to one another. It may be that the trade becomes regularized or the number of things being traded increases or the number of peoples engaged in this trade itself grows. The result is that the things traded now acquire an exchange value, or a quantitative measure of what things of one type trade for things of another type. It is important to note that this value has nothing to do with the intrinsic qualities of the things being traded as these qualities are often entirely different. Instead, this exchange value is a social measure lent to those things by those who would trade them.

What is the basis of exchange value? The basis for exchange value is the amount of labor time spent in producing the products being exchanged. More, this labor time is not measured in terms of labor of a specific type because that is as varied as the specific types of products being produced. This is a peculiar kind of abstract labor which reduces multiple skill levels and the effectiveness of the individual producers to a quantity of abstract social labor congealed in the products themselves. Of course, no trace of that congealed abstract labor is detectable in any of the products themselves, because it is a creation of the social act of exchange itself.

What we have described above is not capitalism. In fact, ancient peoples live with this type of trade for thousands of years. No surplus value has yet been “invented”, no exploitation is implied, nor are the things being produced necessarily commodities because to assume that form, products must be produced explicitly for exchange. This trade lives typically at the margins of society and remains incidental in its importance if not in its terms. It is also true that of all the things produced, relatively few become candidates for trade and thus acquire an exchange value.

The problem arises when the number of products entering into exchange increases in number. One bowl of salt exchanges for 3 tanned hides which exchange for a flint awl which exchanges for 11 dried fish and so on. Very quickly, this matrix of value relationships becomes a complex table, and this even with relatively few products entering into trade. How do we know this? Because, these tables have survived among examples of the earliest forms of writing. One of the most interesting are variations on Sumerian cylinder seals which when rolled onto clay or mud, to produce trade tables:

Many archaeologists believe that the widespread adoption of cuneiform writing was a direct result of the adoption of the Sumerian tablets.

At this stage, commodities do in fact begin to appear and a simple innovation is required to simplify the growing matrix of exchange. Exchange now becomes a two step process in which the exchange value of any two commodities entering into exchange are first compared to the exchange value of a third. Through widespread adoption, that commodity becomes a universal equivalent or money. The traits that lead one commodity to be adopted as the money commodity over another have been widely studied. These traits include the realization of a large amount of value in a physically small and portable mass, durability, easy divisibility, and so on.

In truth, though precious metals are a natural, any commodity will do. Specific quantities of the money commodity become the denominations of money (i.e. Pound Sterling or a pound of sterling silver). Each commodity now acquires a measure relative to the money commodity, or what is to say the same thing, a price. The act of exchange now appears to be a two step process: that of selling and that of buying, though nothing has really changed and the intermediate step of transformation into the money commodity often never need take place.

Of course we have described an early stage in the evolution of money with national money and credit money and banknotes and a thousand other things to come, but, nevertheless, nothing really changes from this humble beginning. And this early stage of commodities, too, may last for hundreds or thousands of years without carrying with it the implications of universal commoditization and exploitation, except in embryo. But we have enough here to suit our purpose.

There is nothing special about money. Midas was wrong. As the universal equivalent, money may be transformed immediately into any other commodity but any commodity may undergo the very same transformation or else it would not be a commodity.

Money has no “magic”. Money spent is gone forever. Money hoarded merely sits there. It is capital (coming much later) that has “magic” for when it is spent, it returns larger than before. And, while it is true that there is a slogan that says, “money makes money”, in truth it abridges the reality: that money transformed into capital is magically augmented and makes more money. This is how money gains its “peculiar luster” as Marx calls it. And while even the capitalist may be confused about money, particularly in the infinite complexity of its full blown evolution, nevertheless in his “values” he knows the truth – to consume money is to be a spendthrift and a parasite, and to hoard money is to show stupidity, but let even a spare sou show up and it is immediately invested in “productive endeavor”, as capital.

You are showing way too much intuition and not nearly enough rigor. Being way too loose in use of words and the logic behind them slops both around like paint on an abstract. It is certainly not a crime to be befuddled by the categories of political economy, complex as they are. But, to declare Marx, one of the most important writers in human history, as “wrong” without being cognizant of either his views or their context… that is just silly.

The story of Robinson Crusoe is the quintessential cliché of economics. One might as well wear a neon sign screaming “sophist”. If one had read Marx, they would know that he demolishes such a story early in Capital. In fact, the Crusoe story exists because of weaknesses in the other favorite cliché of the economists: the story of the Indian and the bow and arrow.

“Once there was an Indian and he had an idea. Instead of using a spear to hunt rabbits with the other ‘braves’, one day he went hungry and invented the bow and arrow…”

“Um, Professor Samuelson… he wouldn’t have gone hungry, you see, because ‘Indians’ had no concept of consuming as a function of individual production so he would have eaten just the same as everyone else so…”

“TO CONTINUE, that Indian used his bow and arrow to hunt twice as many rabbits the next day and in return for sharing that knowledge with the rest, he had them give one of their rabbits to him for each one they kept…

“Errr, Professor… that doesn’t work either because they had no concept of private property and the bow and arrow wouldn’t ‘belong’ to the ‘inventor’ and, besides, once they knew how…”

“AND THAT BOW AND ARROW WAS THE FIRST CAPITAL and anyone who doesn’t say so on the test WILL FAIL!”

The previously mentioned Robinson has no such problems. He blithely enters into primitive conditions with the knowledge, the stupid certainty, the idiotic prejudices and the fully formed views of a thoroughly modern philistine. What a perfect way to start a ‘hypothetical’ story about the origins of political economy.

BTW I have no emotional attachment to Marx just as it is not dogma. I save those attachments for my closer relations in this world. And my ball glove.
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Re: Um

Postby alloneword » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:40 am

chlamor wrote:The act of exchange now appears to be a two step process: that of selling and that of buying, though nothing has really changed and the intermediate step of transformation into the money commodity often never need take place.

<snip>

There is nothing special about money... ..As the universal equivalent...

<snip>

Money has no “magic”... ..Money hoarded merely sits there.


That's just it. Your use of the word 'merely' belies the error.

You attempt to explain how 'money' is of itself 'merely' a neutral medium of exchange, in it's benign fungibility with regard to the goods and services it 'merely' represents.

This is empirically not so.

Will (forgetting the flint for a moment ;) ) the hides, salt or fish 'merely sit there'? They will not. Rats, Moths, Rust and other agents will have their way, diminishing their 'value' until they are nought but dust.

Why this is of fundamental importance is that the 'money' is subject to none of these agents of atrophy. It has a unique quality that sets it apart from the goods it is 'merely' supposed to represent - a *magical* property, indeed!

It can be 'hoarded' without the penalty (indeed, quite the opposite!) such that it's scarcity affords it's hoarder an unnatural advantage, thus the ability to demand tribute for it's release. See Friedmans explanation of the 1930's 'crash' in the interview I posted above, where he lays the blame for such at the feet of those who artificially restrict the 'money supply', affording those 'hoarders' the opportunity to harvest the real wealth through the mechanism of foreclosure, etc.

It is this *magical* property that empowers the usurers to perform their evil craft.

It is the failure to recognise this fundamental difference between 'money' and that which it is supposed to 'merely' represent that renders Marxist thought on the subject useless.

-

Gesells 'Story of Robinson' is no '‘hypothetical’ story about the origins of political economy'. It is a ‘hypothetical’ story about the nature of 'money'.

But please do point me towards where Marx deals with this issue, if it is true that I am mistaken, in that my familiarity with his works has led me toward a contempt that has blinded me to his meaning in some way. :)
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Re: Um

Postby chlamor » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:46 am

alloneword wrote:
chlamor wrote:The act of exchange now appears to be a two step process: that of selling and that of buying, though nothing has really changed and the intermediate step of transformation into the money commodity often never need take place.

<snip>

There is nothing special about money... ..As the universal equivalent...

<snip>

Money has no “magic”... ..Money hoarded merely sits there.


That's just it. Your use of the word 'merely' belies the error.

You attempt to explain how 'money' is of itself 'merely' a neutral medium of exchange, in it's benign fungibility with regard to the goods and services it 'merely' represents.

This is empirically not so.

Will (forgetting the flint for a moment ;) ) the hides, salt or fish 'merely sit there'? They will not. Rats, Moths, Rust and other agents will have their way, diminishing their 'value' until they are nought but dust.

Why this is of fundamental importance is that the 'money' is subject to none of these agents of atrophy. It has a unique quality that sets it apart from the goods it is 'merely' supposed to represent - a *magical* property, indeed!

It can be 'hoarded' without the penalty (indeed, quite the opposite!) such that it's scarcity affords it's hoarder an unnatural advantage, thus the ability to demand tribute for it's release. See Friedmans explanation of the 1930's 'crash' in the interview I posted above, where he lays the blame for such at the feet of those who artificially restrict the 'money supply', affording those 'hoarders' the opportunity to harvest the real wealth through the mechanism of foreclosure, etc.

It is this *magical* property that empowers the usurers to perform their evil craft.

It is the failure to recognise this fundamental difference between 'money' and that which it is supposed to 'merely' represent that renders Marxist thought on the subject useless.

-

Gesells 'Story of Robinson' is no '‘hypothetical’ story about the origins of political economy'. It is a ‘hypothetical’ story about the nature of 'money'.

But please do point me towards where Marx deals with this issue, if it is true that I am mistaken, in that my familiarity with his works has led me toward a contempt that has blinded me to his meaning in some way. :)


Not only does Marx talk about Money throughout Volumes I and III of Capital but virtually the entirety of Volume II is dedicated to an analysis of it and the circulation of commodities.

I would respect the following opinion much more:

"Everyone in my society dumps on Marx so I find it both safe and convenient to do the same despite the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about because I am in no danger of being called on it because no one else I know knows anything about the subject either. So, I merrily adopt the fetishes and prejudices of my environment and look for particularly obscure and marginal 'thinkers' to explore and thus I get my cake and eat it too. I am the 'revolutionary' who discovered that I don't have to pay income taxes because it isn't in the constitution. Look it up for yourself..."
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Re: Um

Postby alloneword » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:23 am

chlamor wrote:Not only does Marx talk about Money throughout Volumes I and III of Capital but virtually the entirety of Volume II is dedicated to an analysis of it and the circulation of commodities.

I would respect the following opinion much more:

"Everyone in my society dumps on Marx so I find it both safe and convenient to do the same despite the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about because I am in no danger of being called on it because no one else I know knows anything about the subject either. So, I merrily adopt the fetishes and prejudices of my environment and look for particularly obscure and marginal 'thinkers' to explore and thus I get my cake and eat it too. I am the 'revolutionary' who discovered that I don't have to pay income taxes because it isn't in the constitution. Look it up for yourself..."


No, no, Chlamor, that simply won't do.

If you disagree with what I'm saying here - that Marx misses the fundamental problem regarding 'money' as highlighted by Gesell - then please do show me where he deals with it.

I contend that he does not deal with it.

I'm not about to quote Marx in his entirety, pointing out after ever sentence how he fails to address the issue.

If you believe me (and Gesell) to be wrong on this, please point out where exactly in 'Capital' it is dealt with. If - as you contend - he does deal with it and you have actually read and comprehended the work, I can't see how this would be a problem.

You can desist with the childish projections, too, while you're at it. You know *nothing* about me, my background or opinions beyond those expressed so far. If you can't engage on an adult level regarding the issue under discussion, I'd strongly advise you to drop it.
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Postby bean fidhleir » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:21 am

I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed that fundamental difference in nature between real goods (food etc) and symbolic goods (money)

Polynesian tribal cultures would save up capital in the form of yams and live pigs so that, when they needed to do something as a community (build communal dwellings, ride out a typhoon, etc), they could stop the daily labor and live off their capital awhile. But their capital couldn't be stored forever, so every so often they'd consume it by throwing a big feast to build good relations with neighboring groups.

The Kwakiutl did broadly the same thing along the northwest coast of NAmerica.
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Re: Um

Postby chlamor » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:43 pm

alloneword wrote:
chlamor wrote:Not only does Marx talk about Money throughout Volumes I and III of Capital but virtually the entirety of Volume II is dedicated to an analysis of it and the circulation of commodities.

I would respect the following opinion much more:

"Everyone in my society dumps on Marx so I find it both safe and convenient to do the same despite the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about because I am in no danger of being called on it because no one else I know knows anything about the subject either. So, I merrily adopt the fetishes and prejudices of my environment and look for particularly obscure and marginal 'thinkers' to explore and thus I get my cake and eat it too. I am the 'revolutionary' who discovered that I don't have to pay income taxes because it isn't in the constitution. Look it up for yourself..."


No, no, Chlamor, that simply won't do.

If you disagree with what I'm saying here - that Marx misses the fundamental problem regarding 'money' as highlighted by Gesell - then please do show me where he deals with it.

I contend that he does not deal with it.

I'm not about to quote Marx in his entirety, pointing out after ever sentence how he fails to address the issue.

If you believe me (and Gesell) to be wrong on this, please point out where exactly in 'Capital' it is dealt with. If - as you contend - he does deal with it and you have actually read and comprehended the work, I can't see how this would be a problem.

You can desist with the childish projections, too, while you're at it. You know *nothing* about me, my background or opinions beyond those expressed so far. If you can't engage on an adult level regarding the issue under discussion, I'd strongly advise you to drop it.


The company we keep is important to note.

Coupla' things here one being that you can rest assured that there is zero projection going on on my part. Nice try.

Secondly, I'm sure we'd agree that a conversation of this sort is rendered nearly impossible with the present server problems. Having lost a few replies I'm not so anxious to repeat the posts.

Lastly and essentially the calculations that you have made, as well as Gesell and Keynes and Friedman and...., are wrong from the start as they ignore material reality and reside in the world of abstraction.

The currency you speak of and what it represents has zero connection with the real world no matter how it may have convinced you otherwise.

_____________________________________________________________

Keynes preferred Gesell to Marx because he favored economic policies, particularly in the monetary and fiscal fields, which he thought capable of alleviating the economic ills of capitalism without altering its basic social structure. Marx, though dealing with monetary questions exhaustively, emphasized the extra-monetary aspects of the economy. In his view, money questions could be understood only in the light of the capitalist relations of production, which are relations “based on the class distinction between buyers and sellers of labor power. It is not money which by its nature creates this relation; it is rather the existence of this relation which permits of the transformation of a mere money-function into a capital function.”[10] And only in this latter sense is it of contemporary interest.

According to Marx, money is important not as a measure of value and a medium of exchange, but because it is the “independent form of the existence of exchange-value.” In the capitalist circulation process, value assumes at one time the form of money and at another that of other commodities. In the form of money it preserves and expands itself. The market economy and capital accumulation are beset with difficulties which appear as monetary troubles. The buying and selling process itself, by providing money with two different functions, contains a crisis element, as the seller is not forced to buy but may retain his wealth in money form. An existing quantity of money, if not large enough to serve as additional capital, may necessitate a period of hoarding, which may also constitute an element of crisis. A relative lack as well as a relative abundance of capital may lead to economic difficulties which will appear as a crisis of the money system.

The need to amass money by hoarding in order to accumulate it as productive capital was largely eliminated by the development of the banking and credit system. The pooling of money resources helped extend industrial and commercial operations. The increasingly more speculative character of capital production enhanced the irrational aspects of capital competition by producing mal-investments and over-investments. Of course, these activities were not considered “speculative” in a derogatory sense,[11] as it was the presumed function of financial capital to “anticipate” further development and to “create” the conditions for an accelerated capital formation. There can exist, however, a strictly monetary crisis due to the relatively independent movement of money in the form of finance capital. Accordingly, Keynes distinguished between “finance” and “industry,” favoring the latter and defining the former as the business of the money-market, speculation, stock-exchange activities, and the financing of production. Although he held that “speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise,” he found the situation “serious when enterprise becomes the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation.”[12]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick ... s/ch02.htm
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Postby alloneword » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:38 pm

bean fidhleir wrote:I'm surprised that more people haven't noticed that fundamental difference in nature between real goods (food etc) and symbolic goods (money)
Welcome to the club, bean. :)

A paranoid person might indeed conclude that the failure to understand this issue is the goal of a well crafted and extensively resourced psy-op - y'know, the same one that seeks to indoctrinate us into believing that *everything* can be reduced to a numeric value with a '$' in front of it... oh, and the 'poor' are only so due to some moral deficiency (rather than a systemic deficiency in the monetary system).

Funny that you should mention 'Polynesian tribal cultures' - I had the privilege of living and working here for a few years - met a guy who knew the guy who was the first person in the whole country to 'work' for 'money'. Apparently, everyone thought he was bonkers... 'What are you going to do with those pieces of paper?', they asked him. 'You can't eat them!'

To be honest, I spent my first year or so thinking everyone there was utterly bonkers. Took me that long to work out that it was me who was mad (and not just in their eyes). Didn't realise that there even was any other way of viewing the world other than our own, let alone what it was. Those 'botaki's' were great, though, even for an 'imatang'. :)
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Postby alloneword » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:44 pm

chlamor wrote:The company we keep is important to note.
Perhaps in your case, my friend.

chlamor wrote:Coupla' things here one being that you can rest assured that there is zero projection going on on my part. Nice try.
Glad to hear it. :)

chlamor wrote:Secondly, I'm sure we'd agree that a conversation of this sort is rendered nearly impossible with the present server problems. Having lost a few replies I'm not so anxious to repeat the posts.
Compose it in a text editor (e.g. 'notepad'). Saves a lot of frustration.

chlamor wrote:Lastly and essentially the calculations that you have made, as well as Gesell and Keynes and Friedman and...., are wrong from the start as they ignore material reality and reside in the world of abstraction.

The currency you speak of and what it represents has zero connection with the real world no matter how it may have convinced you otherwise.
Again, old chap, you betray your ignorance.

Try looking up 'Schwanenkirchen', 'Woergl' and for that matter Switzerland’s 'Wir' System - still alive and kicking today.

Here, I'll help:

The experiment of Woergl
Towards the end of the nineteenth century Silvio Gesell, a successful merchant in Germany and Argentina began to observe that when interest rates were low people would buy his goods but if they were high they would not. His explanation was that money, unlike all other goods, can be kept without cost. If one person has a bag of apples and another one the money to buy those apples, the apples will be worthless in six months but the money will be worth about the same. Because money does not attract holding costs and is in addition easily exchangeable for everything else holders of money have a huge advantage over holders of goods because they can wait till the price is right or someone pays them a reward for borrowing their money.

Gesell's central message in his book The Natural Economic Orderexternal link is that instead of paying interest to those who have more money than they need, people should pay a small fee if they keep money out of circulation. This fee will encourage people to keep money in circulation.

An analogy which helps to explain the difference is to compare money to a container which also helps exchange goods and services in a given region. Nobody would dream of paying a reward (interest) to somebody using a container (money) to entice them to unload the container for others to use (pass on the money for others to use). Instead they pay a daily fee if they don't unload it. And that is all we need to do with money.

Between 1932 and 1933 the small Austrian town of Woergl started one of the first model experiments which has been an inspiration to all who have been concerned with the issue of monetary reform up to this day. Backed by an equivalent amount of ordinary schillings in the bank the town spent 12,600 'Work Certificates' into circulation. This money circulated 463 times in the next 13.5 months thus creating goods and services worth 12,600 x 463 or over 2.5 million schillings. In comparison to the sluggish national currency it circulated eight times as fast.

At a time when most countries in Europe with decreasing numbers of jobs, Woergl reduced its unemployment rate by 60% within a year. Income from taxes rose 35% and investment in public works rose 220%.

The fee collected by the town government which caused the money to change hands so quickly amounted to 12% of 12,600 Schillings or a total of 1,512 Schillings. This small amount was used for public purposes and thus no single individual gained from it, but the community as whole.

When, however, 130 communities in Austria began to be interested in adopting this model the Austrian National Bank saw its own monopoly in danger and prohibited the printing of any local currency.

http://le.org.nz/tiki-index.php?page=WoerglExperiment


Silvio Gesell and Stamp Scrip

Some of the most notable examples of successful scrip issues were instigated by Silvio Gesell, a successful German businessman who lived much of his life in South America, and who, at one point between the first and second World Wars, served briefly in the German government. Gesell, in his once famous book, The Natural Economic Order, [38] explained his views on the nature of money and how it functions in the economy, and outlined his ideas on how it should be reformed. He originated the plan for issuing a currency known as "stamp scrip." Later, the great American economist, Irving Fisher, became a proponent of scrip and wrote a book about it. His book, entitled Stamp Scrip, described some of the subsequent scrip experiments and outlined his recommendations for proper issuance of scrip. [39] His is one of the few handbooks available on the subject.


Depression-era Stamp Scrip in Germany and Austria

Among the most successful and famous applications of Gesell's stamp scrip idea were the ones which took place in the small Bavarian town of Schwanenkirchen and the Austrian town of Woergl. [40] Gesell's scrip was to consist of pieces of paper of uniform size (about 8 inches by 3.5 inches) to be issued by a voluntary association of factories, merchants, a bank and any others. It would be issued in denominations of convenient amounts and be used in payment of wages and for trade. The shops who were members of the association would, of course, get all the trade. This would provide an incentive for other businesses to join, and business generally would improve.

Gesell's scrip was designed to have 52 spaces on the reverse side, one for each week of the year, and the scrip was to have the value of its stated denomination only for one week. In order for the scrip to maintain its face value, a stamp, costing two percent of the face value of the note, had to be affixed on the back, in the space allocated to that week. The stamps could be bought at the bank representing the association. This stamp device was supposed to keep the scrip from being hoarded, as people would try to spend it prior to the day the stamp had to be affixed and thus avoid the cost of the stamp. [41]

Gesell had many friends in Germany and his ideas were widely discussed but there was initially no attempt to implement them. At the time, shortly after the end of the first World War, there was currency inflation in Germany of astronomical proportions which caused severe hardships for the people. This inflation, like all inflations, was the result of improper and excessive issuance of official currency. It was part of a deliberate government policy to surreptitiously eliminate its debts by printing more money. This policy was probably a large factor in the eventual collapse of the German government, and helped set the stage for Hitler's rise to power, as he was one who exposed it.

With the coming of the Depression, the nature of the problem shifted. Money was then in short supply. Gesell's friend, Hans Timm, formed an association for the purpose of implementing the scrip idea. Timm actually had printed such stamp scrip which he called Wara, a name derived by combining two words - "Ware," the German word for goods, and "Wahrung," the German word for currency. Timm's association was called the "Wara Exchange Association." Wara became fairly well known in Germany but it was never widely used.

The village of Schwanenkirchen had a population of about 500 and its only industry was a coal mine which had been closed for two years because of the depression. The village had barely existed by means of the government dole and almost everyone was in debt. Deflation throughout Germany led to bankruptcies, suicides and overcrowded jails. The coal mine owner had heard about Wara stamp scrip and decided to try it. He got a loan of official currency (Reichsmarks) and with it bought Wara stamp scrip from the Wara Exchange Association. [42] Then, according to a report in The New Republic for August 10, 1932: [43]

"Herr Hebecker assembled his workers. He told them that he had succeeded in getting a loan of 40,000 Reichsmarks, that he wished to resume operations but that he wanted to pay wages not in Marks but in Wara. The miners agreed to the proposal when they learned that the village store would accept Wara in exchange for goods.

When, after two years of complete stagnation, the workers for the first time brought home their pay envelopes, no one was interested in hoarding a cent of it; all the money went to the stores to pay off debts or for the purchase of necessities. The shopkeepers, too, were happy. Although at first they had felt a little hesitant about Wara, they had no choice, as no one had any other kind of money. The shopkeepers then forced it on the wholesalers, the wholesalers forced it on the manufacturers, who in turn tried to pass it on to those who carried their notes, or they exchanged it at Herr Hebecker's mine for coal.

No one who received Wara wished to hold it; the workers, storekeepers, wholesalers and manufacturers all strove to get rid of it as quickly as possible, for any person who held it was obliged to pay the 2 cent stamp tax. So Wara kept circulating, a large part of it returning to the coal mine, where it provided work, profits and better conditions for the entire community. Indeed, one could not have recognized Schwanenkirchen a few months after work had resumed at the mine. The village was on a prosperity basis, workers and merchants were free from debts and a new spirit of freedom and life pervaded the town."

Continuing the account in Fisher's words: [44]

"The news of the town's prosperity in the midst of depression-ridden Germany spread quickly. From all over the country reporters came to see and write about the 'Miracle of Schwanenkirchen'. Even in the United States one read about it in the financial sections of most big papers. But no explanation was given as to the real cause of the miracle - that non-hoardable money was being tried out and that it was working marvelously."

Acceptance of Wara subsequently spread to various parts of Germany. About two thousand shops and one or two entire communities recovered by means of it. Finally, in November 1931, the German Government passed an emergency law ending the circulation of Wara. The "miracle" of Schwanenkirchen then ended and the town went back on the dole.

Another place where Wara succeeded was in the Austrian town of Woergl which, by 1932, was in dire straits. In this town of about four thousand people, many factories had closed and almost everyone in town had lost their jobs. A large amount of local taxes were unpaid. The mayor of the town had heard about Wara and decided to try it. In this case, the Wara were issued by the town, in conjunction with a number of merchants and the local savings bank. The town paid its employees half in Wara and half in official currency.

Initially, some of the local merchants refused to accept Wara, but when they saw the trade going to the other shops, they too had to climb on the bandwagon. The Wara issue was a great success. Professor Fisher describes the situation this way: [45]

"After the scrip was issued not only were current taxes paid (as well as other debts owing to the town), but many arrears of taxes were collected. During the first month alone 4,542 schillings were thus received in arrears. Accordingly, the city not only met its own obligations but, in the second half of 1932, executed new public works to the value of 100,000 schillings. Seven streets aggregating four miles were rebuilt and asphalted; twelve roads were improved; the sewer system was extended over two more streets; trees were planted and forests improved."

Unfortunately, this successful experiment was also ended under pressure exerted upon the Austrian government by the central bank. Figures 8.5 and 8.6, respectively, show the face and reverse sides of one of the Woergl notes.

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/cc/NMfHC/chp8.html

It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that organisations that supported Gesell's ideas were outlawed in post WWII Russia. Mutual interest with the central bankers?

Funny old world, eh?

chlamor wrote:http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1969/marx-keynes/ch02.htm
Stick to the 'party line' - saves thinking for yourself. ;)
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Postby Hammer of Los » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:37 pm

Very interesting stuff Alloneword, I appreciate you posting this material.

I guess the real problem with these systems was this;

This small amount was used for public purposes and thus no single individual gained from it, but the community as whole.


The people with all the money and the advantages they accrue, also have the power to retain their monopoly. Those alternative systems provide a fascinating insight. You know something, deprecating remarks about "bankers" just might not be codewords for jews uttered by crypto anti-semites, after all. Maybe, just maybe powerful banking interests and their allies want to simply smear those who point out the rather obvious iniquities in their financial systems. I noticed in the FT at the weekend, 8 out of the 12 biggest, most successful corporations in the world are either banking, or oil and gas. So much power in so few hands, its a disgrace really. I think the other four were heavily involved in so-called "defense" industries.

:(

You know, I've been banging on and on for many years now how some socalled "primitive" cultures seem utopian to me (not all I must add.) Most people do think I'm mad, its true. But then, I'm kind of allergic to orthodoxies.

Jeez, I gotta go to bed.
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Pretty bizarre

Postby chlamor » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:49 pm

If you have a list of acceptable links that can be used to support Marxist analysis please present that. Your not so cleverly disguised insults aside it seems you have little desire to reach back to a historical sense of how money came to be money and what it represents.

Your reformist perspective takes us not so far from where we are.

alloneword wrote:
chlamor wrote:The company we keep is important to note.
Perhaps in your case, my friend.

chlamor wrote:Coupla' things here one being that you can rest assured that there is zero projection going on on my part. Nice try.
Glad to hear it. :)

chlamor wrote:Secondly, I'm sure we'd agree that a conversation of this sort is rendered nearly impossible with the present server problems. Having lost a few replies I'm not so anxious to repeat the posts.
Compose it in a text editor (e.g. 'notepad'). Saves a lot of frustration.

chlamor wrote:Lastly and essentially the calculations that you have made, as well as Gesell and Keynes and Friedman and...., are wrong from the start as they ignore material reality and reside in the world of abstraction.

The currency you speak of and what it represents has zero connection with the real world no matter how it may have convinced you otherwise.
Again, old chap, you betray your ignorance.

Try looking up 'Schwanenkirchen', 'Woergl' and for that matter Switzerland’s 'Wir' System - still alive and kicking today.

Here, I'll help:

The experiment of Woergl
Towards the end of the nineteenth century Silvio Gesell, a successful merchant in Germany and Argentina began to observe that when interest rates were low people would buy his goods but if they were high they would not. His explanation was that money, unlike all other goods, can be kept without cost. If one person has a bag of apples and another one the money to buy those apples, the apples will be worthless in six months but the money will be worth about the same. Because money does not attract holding costs and is in addition easily exchangeable for everything else holders of money have a huge advantage over holders of goods because they can wait till the price is right or someone pays them a reward for borrowing their money.

Gesell's central message in his book The Natural Economic Orderexternal link is that instead of paying interest to those who have more money than they need, people should pay a small fee if they keep money out of circulation. This fee will encourage people to keep money in circulation.

An analogy which helps to explain the difference is to compare money to a container which also helps exchange goods and services in a given region. Nobody would dream of paying a reward (interest) to somebody using a container (money) to entice them to unload the container for others to use (pass on the money for others to use). Instead they pay a daily fee if they don't unload it. And that is all we need to do with money.

Between 1932 and 1933 the small Austrian town of Woergl started one of the first model experiments which has been an inspiration to all who have been concerned with the issue of monetary reform up to this day. Backed by an equivalent amount of ordinary schillings in the bank the town spent 12,600 'Work Certificates' into circulation. This money circulated 463 times in the next 13.5 months thus creating goods and services worth 12,600 x 463 or over 2.5 million schillings. In comparison to the sluggish national currency it circulated eight times as fast.

At a time when most countries in Europe with decreasing numbers of jobs, Woergl reduced its unemployment rate by 60% within a year. Income from taxes rose 35% and investment in public works rose 220%.

The fee collected by the town government which caused the money to change hands so quickly amounted to 12% of 12,600 Schillings or a total of 1,512 Schillings. This small amount was used for public purposes and thus no single individual gained from it, but the community as whole.

When, however, 130 communities in Austria began to be interested in adopting this model the Austrian National Bank saw its own monopoly in danger and prohibited the printing of any local currency.

http://le.org.nz/tiki-index.php?page=WoerglExperiment


Silvio Gesell and Stamp Scrip

Some of the most notable examples of successful scrip issues were instigated by Silvio Gesell, a successful German businessman who lived much of his life in South America, and who, at one point between the first and second World Wars, served briefly in the German government. Gesell, in his once famous book, The Natural Economic Order, [38] explained his views on the nature of money and how it functions in the economy, and outlined his ideas on how it should be reformed. He originated the plan for issuing a currency known as "stamp scrip." Later, the great American economist, Irving Fisher, became a proponent of scrip and wrote a book about it. His book, entitled Stamp Scrip, described some of the subsequent scrip experiments and outlined his recommendations for proper issuance of scrip. [39] His is one of the few handbooks available on the subject.


Depression-era Stamp Scrip in Germany and Austria

Among the most successful and famous applications of Gesell's stamp scrip idea were the ones which took place in the small Bavarian town of Schwanenkirchen and the Austrian town of Woergl. [40] Gesell's scrip was to consist of pieces of paper of uniform size (about 8 inches by 3.5 inches) to be issued by a voluntary association of factories, merchants, a bank and any others. It would be issued in denominations of convenient amounts and be used in payment of wages and for trade. The shops who were members of the association would, of course, get all the trade. This would provide an incentive for other businesses to join, and business generally would improve.

Gesell's scrip was designed to have 52 spaces on the reverse side, one for each week of the year, and the scrip was to have the value of its stated denomination only for one week. In order for the scrip to maintain its face value, a stamp, costing two percent of the face value of the note, had to be affixed on the back, in the space allocated to that week. The stamps could be bought at the bank representing the association. This stamp device was supposed to keep the scrip from being hoarded, as people would try to spend it prior to the day the stamp had to be affixed and thus avoid the cost of the stamp. [41]

Gesell had many friends in Germany and his ideas were widely discussed but there was initially no attempt to implement them. At the time, shortly after the end of the first World War, there was currency inflation in Germany of astronomical proportions which caused severe hardships for the people. This inflation, like all inflations, was the result of improper and excessive issuance of official currency. It was part of a deliberate government policy to surreptitiously eliminate its debts by printing more money. This policy was probably a large factor in the eventual collapse of the German government, and helped set the stage for Hitler's rise to power, as he was one who exposed it.

With the coming of the Depression, the nature of the problem shifted. Money was then in short supply. Gesell's friend, Hans Timm, formed an association for the purpose of implementing the scrip idea. Timm actually had printed such stamp scrip which he called Wara, a name derived by combining two words - "Ware," the German word for goods, and "Wahrung," the German word for currency. Timm's association was called the "Wara Exchange Association." Wara became fairly well known in Germany but it was never widely used.

The village of Schwanenkirchen had a population of about 500 and its only industry was a coal mine which had been closed for two years because of the depression. The village had barely existed by means of the government dole and almost everyone was in debt. Deflation throughout Germany led to bankruptcies, suicides and overcrowded jails. The coal mine owner had heard about Wara stamp scrip and decided to try it. He got a loan of official currency (Reichsmarks) and with it bought Wara stamp scrip from the Wara Exchange Association. [42] Then, according to a report in The New Republic for August 10, 1932: [43]

"Herr Hebecker assembled his workers. He told them that he had succeeded in getting a loan of 40,000 Reichsmarks, that he wished to resume operations but that he wanted to pay wages not in Marks but in Wara. The miners agreed to the proposal when they learned that the village store would accept Wara in exchange for goods.

When, after two years of complete stagnation, the workers for the first time brought home their pay envelopes, no one was interested in hoarding a cent of it; all the money went to the stores to pay off debts or for the purchase of necessities. The shopkeepers, too, were happy. Although at first they had felt a little hesitant about Wara, they had no choice, as no one had any other kind of money. The shopkeepers then forced it on the wholesalers, the wholesalers forced it on the manufacturers, who in turn tried to pass it on to those who carried their notes, or they exchanged it at Herr Hebecker's mine for coal.

No one who received Wara wished to hold it; the workers, storekeepers, wholesalers and manufacturers all strove to get rid of it as quickly as possible, for any person who held it was obliged to pay the 2 cent stamp tax. So Wara kept circulating, a large part of it returning to the coal mine, where it provided work, profits and better conditions for the entire community. Indeed, one could not have recognized Schwanenkirchen a few months after work had resumed at the mine. The village was on a prosperity basis, workers and merchants were free from debts and a new spirit of freedom and life pervaded the town."

Continuing the account in Fisher's words: [44]

"The news of the town's prosperity in the midst of depression-ridden Germany spread quickly. From all over the country reporters came to see and write about the 'Miracle of Schwanenkirchen'. Even in the United States one read about it in the financial sections of most big papers. But no explanation was given as to the real cause of the miracle - that non-hoardable money was being tried out and that it was working marvelously."

Acceptance of Wara subsequently spread to various parts of Germany. About two thousand shops and one or two entire communities recovered by means of it. Finally, in November 1931, the German Government passed an emergency law ending the circulation of Wara. The "miracle" of Schwanenkirchen then ended and the town went back on the dole.

Another place where Wara succeeded was in the Austrian town of Woergl which, by 1932, was in dire straits. In this town of about four thousand people, many factories had closed and almost everyone in town had lost their jobs. A large amount of local taxes were unpaid. The mayor of the town had heard about Wara and decided to try it. In this case, the Wara were issued by the town, in conjunction with a number of merchants and the local savings bank. The town paid its employees half in Wara and half in official currency.

Initially, some of the local merchants refused to accept Wara, but when they saw the trade going to the other shops, they too had to climb on the bandwagon. The Wara issue was a great success. Professor Fisher describes the situation this way: [45]

"After the scrip was issued not only were current taxes paid (as well as other debts owing to the town), but many arrears of taxes were collected. During the first month alone 4,542 schillings were thus received in arrears. Accordingly, the city not only met its own obligations but, in the second half of 1932, executed new public works to the value of 100,000 schillings. Seven streets aggregating four miles were rebuilt and asphalted; twelve roads were improved; the sewer system was extended over two more streets; trees were planted and forests improved."

Unfortunately, this successful experiment was also ended under pressure exerted upon the Austrian government by the central bank. Figures 8.5 and 8.6, respectively, show the face and reverse sides of one of the Woergl notes.

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/cc/NMfHC/chp8.html

It may (or may not) surprise you to learn that organisations that supported Gesell's ideas were outlawed in post WWII Russia. Mutual interest with the central bankers?

Funny old world, eh?

chlamor wrote:http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1969/marx-keynes/ch02.htm
Stick to the 'party line' - saves thinking for yourself. ;)


It seems that what are dealing with here is a form of sophistic argument on the web and here the web helps you in that you can ignore the very basic foundation of the argument that has been introduced in the hopes that the short half-life of individual debating points on the internet can get you back on solid ground. So, you repeat your previous points with disdain, hoping that what was written will go away. You repeat the saw about Marx without concern that you have yet to make it clear what exactly you want to have Marx say or "explain" (then you will admit he is wrong). You also repeat the contention about the "magic" of money but now with a side trip on the durability of the money commodity (gold and silver also "rots", but unless we are taking yet another side trip into the "natural" money-ness of rotten gold and silver, this leads us nowhere). In all of this, you see the complexity of the modern forms, not as smoke obscuring your vision, but as your friend: "what about this and what about that?"

A cogent analysis lies on a different tack. Instead of looking backward with all of the issues of the modern day befuddling us, we can go back and derived money looking forward (i.e. historically). In truth, there are only two places that you correspondent can legitimately go:

Either you can argue that my short summary of the origins of money is incorrect,

or...

you can point to that point in history when the nature of money as we have outlined it, changes into something entirely different (with documentary material, please).

We are way past Marx by this point. "Here is what money is", and the only possible response that does not tread on sophistry is to say, "that is not what it is".

At this point, nothing else matters... Not Marx, not Gesell, and not what you "think".

Did you know that Anarchis was once asked what the Greeks used money for? "For figuring", he said.

There is another related discussion to this one. It is that of where such ideas come from, and the subject matter is by no means simply confined to "money". Many of the early socialists point to one or another category of political economy and say, "There is your problem". Robert Owen's "labor money" no less than Prudhoun's "interest", is an example of this.

The entire purpose of your post is to say "Marx was wrong". Nothing else is meaningful. You are simply trying to derail the original post (and to repeat the mantra). You don't want to talk about "Nature and Capital" and, this is not because you want to talk about "Nature and Money" instead.
Liberal thy name is hypocrisy. What's new?
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Postby alloneword » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:35 am

Hammer of Los wrote:..You know something, deprecating remarks about "bankers" just might not be codewords for jews uttered by crypto anti-semites, after all. Maybe, just maybe powerful banking interests and their allies want to simply smear those who point out the rather obvious iniquities in their financial systems.


That is so very true, HOL.

To be perfectly honest, I'm most pleasantly surprised that no-one (including chlamor, to his credit) has taken that all-too-common line.

It is an unfortunate fact that many - perhaps most - people have been so conditioned to automatically think 'Jew' whenever the word 'Usury' appears, like some Pavlovian mutt drooling at the sound of the dinner-bell.

That the word 'Usury' is the only word that describes what it does ('Interest sounds so much 'fluffier'), yet has been removed from the lexicon of 'polite' discourse - despite it's recurrent appearance in religious texts - is indicative of how very real George Orwell's fears were, in that by the loss of a 'word', we lose the ability to articulate the 'thought' that is represents.

I'll confess that I make it a point of principal to try to 'reclaim' the word wherever the opportunity arises - it has a specific meaning, the ability to express which I am somewhat reluctant to surrender.

That said, there can be no doubt that the word has in the past been co-opted by 'crypto anti-semites' and the like - just as there can be no doubt that many of the financial elites (Rothschilds, etc.) are Jewish - the historical reasons for that are perhaps beyond the scope of this particular thread.

What I am most keen to convey, however, is the idea that we need not - nay, we must not - allow the discussion of this topic to fall into the realms of 'conspiracy theory'.

The point being, that regardless of who may appear to be 'at the top' or 'pulling the strings' with regard to our monetary system, their supposed or apparent 'religious' convictions, moral values or intent, a systemic analysis - that is, a rigorous intellectual examination of the mechanisms at work within the structure of the system, what they are and what they do - is essential if we are ever to free ourselves from it's inevitable consequences.

The first step to solving any problem must surely be in gaining an understanding of the nature of the problem - where it's root causes lie - lest any attempts at a cure be merely palliative, ineffective and in vain.

A simple systemic analysis of the monetary system, devoid of any 'blame' or supposition of 'conspiracy' (even though Orwell and I might want that word back, too...) reveals a machine, a mechanism which by it's very nature will concentrate wealth in the hands of those with wealth, which demands ever increasing quantities of natural resources to be converted into waste merely to appear to stand still, reinforces the lie that we are nought but autonomous, self interested actors engaged in a wholly 'natural' state of competition and from which many - if not all - of the very real, now critically urgent problems we as a species find ourselves faced with stem.
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Re: Pretty bizarre

Postby alloneword » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:45 am

chlamor wrote:If you have a list of acceptable links that can be used to support Marxist analysis please present that. Your not so cleverly disguised insults aside it seems you have little desire to reach back to a historical sense of how money came to be money and what it represents.


Au contraire, my friend. 'What it [money] represents' - and the analysis of such which Marx failed to perform is the point of my writing. By failing to adequately understand the true nature of 'money', with it's inherent, systemic and structural deficiencies, Marx bases his entire analysis on no real foundations.


chlamor wrote:Your reformist perspective takes us not so far from where we are.


Since my (Gesell's) analysis examines the nature of 'money' at a deeper level than Marx (who just takes it as read that 'it is what it is', without further critical examination), how on earth can you suggest that this approach is 'reformist'? It is fundamentally more 'revolutionary', in the true sense of the word, than that of Marx. Marx is the 'reformist', merely tinkering with the controls of the machine, the inner workings of which he fails to understand.


chlamor wrote:It seems that what are dealing with here is a form of sophistic argument on the web and here the web helps you in that you can ignore the very basic foundation of the argument that has been introduced in the hopes that the short half-life of individual debating points on the internet can get you back on solid ground.


Perhaps you could elucidate as to the nature of this 'very basic foundation'? Thus far I remain somewhat unconvinced that the 'foundation' of Marxist analysis lies deeper than that of Gesell.


chlamor wrote:So, you repeat your previous points with disdain, hoping that what was written will go away.


I repeat my points in the vain hope that they will sink in, hoping that what will be written will either answer the points, directing me to some of Marx's words which deal with the fundamental nature of money, or graciously concede that he never actually did so.


chlamor wrote:You repeat the saw about Marx without concern that you have yet to make it clear what exactly you want to have Marx say or "explain" (then you will admit he is wrong).


I'm stuggling to find a way to make it any clearer. I'll try again: What has Marx to say on the fundamental nature of 'money'? - that is, what it 'is' rather than what it does. We know what it 'does'. That is governed by it's innate nature - it cannot do otherwise.


chlamor wrote:You also repeat the contention about the "magic" of money but now with a side trip on the durability of the money commodity (gold and silver also "rots", but unless we are taking yet another side trip into the "natural" money-ness of rotten gold and silver, this leads us nowhere).


Gold and silver 'rot'? News to me, I must concede. Whatever, unless you are suggesting that your own money is some hitherto unknown form of gold which rots - as opposed to 'figures on a balance sheet' which obviously doesn't, no matter how you look at it, 'money' possesses a *magical* quality (that of non-perishability) in relation to the goods it is supposed to represent. To argue otherwise is absurd.


chlamor wrote:In all of this, you see the complexity of the modern forms, not as smoke obscuring your vision, but as your friend: "what about this and what about that?"


The 'complexity of the modern forms' are but the inevitable result of the innate, fundamental nature of 'money'. No 'friends' of mine, Sir!


chlamor wrote:A cogent analysis lies on a different tack. Instead of looking backward with all of the issues of the modern day befuddling us, we can go back and derived money looking forward (i.e. historically).


Which surely is precisely what Gesell does and Marx fails to do.


chlamor wrote: In truth, there are only two places that you correspondent can legitimately go:

Either you can argue that my short summary of the origins of money is incorrect,

or...

you can point to that point in history when the nature of money as we have outlined it, changes into something entirely different (with documentary material, please).


With regard to 'option 1', I argue that your 'short summary of the origins of money' is incomplete, inadequate and superficial. It does not comprehend the nature of money, nor it's fundamental *magical* difference (resistence to atrophy) from the goods which it is supposed to represent.

With regard to 'option 2', I have already done so above - with 'documentary material', no less.


chlamor wrote:We are way past Marx by this point. "Here is what money is", and the only possible response that does not tread on sophistry is to say, "that is not what it is".

At this point, nothing else matters... Not Marx, not Gesell, and not what you "think".
Yes - we are way past Marx - we always were, for the reason that Marx does not say 'What money is'. If he had attempted to enquire into it's nature, I could read his description and offer an opinion as to it's validity. He did not, so I cannot. All I can do is point to what Gesell and others said of 'What money is'. Your own failure to comprehend 'what money is' or offer a counter argument does not make those who can 'sophists'.


chlamor wrote:Did you know that Anarchis was once asked what the Greeks used money for? "For figuring", he said.

There is another related discussion to this one. It is that of where such ideas come from, and the subject matter is by no means simply confined to "money". Many of the early socialists point to one or another category of political economy and say, "There is your problem". Robert Owen's "labor money" no less than Prudhoun's "interest", is an example of this.


You - erm... wouldn't be trying to sidetrack the discussion, would you? Gesell points to the fundamental nature of money and says "There is your problem". He says that unless we address the fundamental systemic problems with the nature of money (sic), we're not going to get anywhere. He then proposes real world, workable solutions ('stamp scrip' - or 'money that rusts') which when put into practice (see my post above) yield startlingly positive results, thus proving the validity of his position. The practice of these solutions then gets stamped (excuse the pun) out by the beneficiaries of the existing system, to the point where (for instance) support for such ideas is criminalised in post WWII Russia.


chlamor wrote:The entire purpose of your post is to say "Marx was wrong". Nothing else is meaningful. You are simply trying to derail the original post (and to repeat the mantra). You don't want to talk about "Nature and Capital" and, this is not because you want to talk about "Nature and Money" instead.


'The entire purpose of my post' is to highlight the fundamental deficiencies in Marxist analysis of economics.

By failing to understand the root, fundamental systemic problem with what we call money, Marx and his followers would doom us to remain within a system which is inherently flawed. The fact that 'money' has the *magical* properties which differentiate it from the goods that it is supposed to represent, it matters not what one does with it nor how one seeks to control it. It is a system, a machine which can only and will only ever yield one inevitable result, regardless of the political will or affiliations of those whose lives it permeates.

The present system, with it's *magic* money, enables two things: Hoarding, which artificially restricts the supply of money, rendering it a powerful political tool, rather than the 'neutral medium of exchange' that Marx supposed, and Usury, the bastard child, whereby those restricting the supply may 'profit' from it. So embedded has the practice become, that the actual creation of money is via usury - money is 'borrowed' into existence which yields interest. Logically, since the only money that exists is that which is 'created' in this manner, there can never be enough in existence to pay off the principle debt plus the interest.

This fact creates a system that's very existance is predicated upon 'growth', where anything that is merely 'sustainable' has by definition 'failed'. The inevitable consequences of this mechanism upon this planet and it's population are all to apparent. Is that not what your original post was about?
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