Polls are bullshit

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Polls are bullshit

Postby Username » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:02 am

~
Heard it over the radio a couple times today (oops, yesterday now) -- CNN reporting Obama and McCain in a "dead heat."


Preparing the Cover Story for the Theft of the Election

by Anthony Wade
www.opednews.com
October 23, 2008

Two weeks to go and the machine is starting to prepare the narrative for how it is possible that John McCain won the 2008 Presidential election. With every poll showing an Obama lead of anywhere from 10-14 points for the past few weeks, suddenly today the Associated Press announced a new poll that shows the race in a dead heat. Nonsense. With the backdrop of the Kennedy-Palast reporting on how the GOP has already started the systematic theft of the election this poll today is just the coverage they need to pretend that the results of a McCain victory will be legitimate. If McCain does indeed go on to steal the election, no doubt his supporters will point to this bogus poll to refute the other polls.

The talking points have been as inane as the alleged poll results. Primarily, the talking points are that the bump is due to the “strong” showing of McCain in the last debate and the “Joe the Plumber” nonsense has “struck a chord.” You have got to be kidding me. Every post debate poll clearly showed that Barack Obama once again dominated John McCain in the last debate. This was even stronger among undecided voters and independents. There was no strong showing by McCain; he lost and everyone saw him lose. By every count, including Fox News, he lost. Not only that, but he lost all three debates as well as the Vice Presidential debate. Throw in the fact that his recent Ayers attack line and socialist charges were also polled to be losers, the new AP poll simply defies logic.

And Joe the Plumber? C’mon guys; you have to do better than this. It has now been revealed that Joe was probably a plant by the McCain camp, which seemed obvious when he approached Obama with stock GOP talking points and has now been exposed as a McCain campaign donor. Even the argument fell apart – that an average American making over $250,000 per year is somehow being cast as being poor or a victim of Obama policy. The realities are that Joe could possibly even do better under Obama than McCain. But moving past the failed realities of Joe the Plumber, the notion that this ridiculous ploy somehow moved a national poll 10-14 points in one day, or one week is patently absurd.

A key “finding” is that the lead Obama had with voters making under $50,000 has shrunk from 24% to just 4%. Really? How in the world is that explained? People making under 50K now like the idea of not getting a targeted tax cut and feel bad for millionaires? Once again, absurd. Not to mention that this week saw the incredibly strong endorsement for Obama by Colin Powell on national television on Sunday. We are supposed to believe that this had a negative effect?

Let’s look at this against the backdrop of every other poll out today. The Washington Post-ABC News poll showed Obama up by 9 percentage points, while a poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center had Obama leading by 14. A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, among the broader category of people registered to vote, found Obama ahead by 10 points. So we have 9, 10, and 14; numbers consistent with what has been the norm for a few weeks now and this one rogue poll which says “no no, it is a statistical dead heat.” Please, let’s be real.

This is all about the backdrop for the theft of the election. Already states such as New Jersey are refusing to allow election experts to monitor voting because they claim it is “too important” and election. The crafted talking points on exit polling is that people will be “too embarrassed” to admit they did not vote for Obama. Exit polling is not some haphazard venture. We use it to challenge the elections in other countries as proof when election results have been tampered with. We only had problems with exit polling when the Bush Administration came into power. Suddenly the data collected is not reliable and silly rationales are generated to explain away how someone like John Kerry can win amongst men and women in Ohio, yet still lose the overall count. Is there a third unknown gender demographic? Instead of properly questioning why the vote totals do not match the exit polling and we are talking by wide margins, the exit polling is “adjusted” to reflect the vote tallies.

Then with the exit polling dismissed, election experts banned from observing, shenanigans like in Colorado where minority ballots are targeted for removal at a rate of at least 1 in every 6, and the bogus “dead heat” poll in hand, the backdrop is set. The machine’s media minions rush out to comment on how legitimate everything was and next thing you know we are in a McCain Administration with Obama and the democrats again wondering what happened? What happened is the lazy democratic congress did nothing about HAVA for the past two years and are doing even less about the daily reporting of voter fraud. I mean real voter fraud, not the silly ACORN nonsense that is being thrown around. Now we see the bending of reality to absurd levels. John McCain’s campaign has been nothing short of an implosion every day. His Vice Presidential pick has been an unmitigated disaster as brilliantly pointed out by Colin Powel this past Sunday. His presentation on the economy has been soundly rejected by the electorate. His dirty politicking has been soundly rejected by the electorate. He is up to double digits in verbal gaffes and bizarre comments. There are reasons why Obama has had a consistent double digit leads. Yet amidst all of this obviousness, the Associated Press wants us to believe that up is down and the election is tied.

When recently asked about the lead Obama was enjoying, John McCain smiled and responded, “We have him right where we want him.” With the cover story being crafted now, maybe he was right.


Anthony Wade, a contributing writer to opednews.com, is dedicated to educating the populace to the lies and abuses of the government. He is a 41-year-old independent writer from New York with political commentary articles seen on multiple websites. A Christian progressive and professional Rehabilitation Counselor working with the poor and disabled, Mr. Wade believes that you can have faith and hold elected officials accountable for lies and excess.

Anthony Wade?s Archive:
http://www.opednews.com/archiveswadeanthony.htm
______________________


And here's a link to an article I found one day googling my sentiment, Polls are Bullshit.

The main purpose of a political poll is not to gauge opinion, but to manipulate voters.


Don't be a chump. Think for yourself. Mark Twain said it best, I think: "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." And now, in the face of an invisible, fictional majority, itself the bastard child of mainstream media push polls, we must pause and reflect. Do you trust the mainstream media to choose your president?

But the most important question to ponder is this: even if every poll was scientific and objective, what is the relevance to you? there is none. The polls are designed to manipulate you through an innate but irrational need to belong, to conform with the majority. High school is over now. It doesn't matter what the popular kids think. Now is the time to prove it.

What should you care what other people think, when inside the poll booth no one knows who you really voted for, all that matters for once, is what you think. That is the whole purpose of voting. It's your vote. Your say, and you don't want to throw that away for the sake of going along with the fickle assurances of a majority; especially a majority that didn't exist in the first place.

~
Username
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:27 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby zhivkov » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:04 am

Thank you once again! Talk about your cognitive dissonance. Every time I go different websites all I hear is that the race is tightening up/getting closer. How the fig could this be-even Zogby has Obama at least 10 points ahead-at least it did earlier today. The MSM promoting the idea that this race is close is the biggest crock of manure I have ever seen.
"you gave me in secret one thing to perceive, the tall blue starry strangeness of being here at all"-Franz Wright
zhivkov
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:24 am
Location: The windmills of my mind
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:26 am

.

Agreed that the "tightening" is propaganda prep for fraud.

Here's a general article always worth recalling, by the principals of retropoll.

http://www.retropoll.org/polling_fraud.htm

October 2003
The Public Opinion Polling Fraud
from Z Magazine
by Marc Sapir and Mickey Huff

See also related article in Censored 2004,
edited by Peter Phillips, available in bookstores.

Americans have existed under a cloud of media and government induced fear since the Creel Commission at the start of WWI. As fascism took hold FDR warned: the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Then the anti-communist hysteria and the witch hunts of McCarthyism and HUAC gripped the United States and propelled the nation into another era of paranoia and distrust. By the time the Cold War ended, Americans were accustomed to being afraid, whether at the behest of politicians or on media command. Even after the spectre of communism had dissipated by the dawn of the 21st century, politicians capitalized on fear mongering against hidden foreign enemies. Meanwhile, the nightly news droned on about street crime, sex scandals, violence, while titillating the public with reality programming.

September 11, 2001 changed that persistent phobia in a crucial way. It allowed government and media to focus Americans' fears tangibly. The reality tv shows paled in comparison to the endless desensitizing reruns of the collapse of the WTC. Terror alerts and false alarms became the order of the day. Suddenly, new villains were omnipresent, not just "over there." Poll after poll exclaimed that the country now supported the unelected and once unpopular president, were terrified, and demanded action. Media institutions offered little analysis to explain America's anxiety which was, after all, almost a century in the making. Rather than engaging in sober critical discourse our spin doctors kept it simple and simply cast blame. We were told that "evildoers" hated our freedom. Daily polls told us what we thought, and that we all thought alike, even though everyday Americans suspected we did not. Michael Moore's Oscar-winning documentary "Bowling for Columbine" addressed the issue of fear and violence in America and how media and government created this very climate, yet most in the press missed that crucial opportunity for a national therapy session.

So how can we clarify the role that the corporate media and their incessant polling play in our collective social mindset? In early 2002 we thought about this question and decided to form our own polling organization to try and better understand what they are doing. When we look at our own poll results we see confusion and have asked ourselves: What do these polls tell us when they show nearly 50% of the citizenry now believes that Iraq was behind 9-11 almost two years afterwards (even though no evidence exists to corroborate such a sentiment)? Or when a large majority of Americans oppose the provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act, declare that media is a major cause of the climate of fear in the U.S. yet many of these same people simultaneously support George Bush's war on terror?

We believe our poll results provide evidence that corporate polls exist mainly to validate corporate media and government disinformation and to tell the public WHAT to think, rather than reflect how they think. The population's apparent consent to the war on terror is virtually manufactured by media and government. Describing and exposing this phenomenon is the focus of Retro Poll. Behind the phenomenon we find that even the best polls, those that use reliable methods, are usually concealing vital truths from the public either by omitting, hiding, or oversimplifying important information, by choice.

Here are some of the details. Retro Poll uses a unique methodology which investigates peoples' background knowledge as well as asking their opinions. This allows an assessment of the extent to which background knowledge or its absence correlates with views about topical issues. We also compare individual's responses on different opinion questions looking for clues. From April 5-20, 2003 more than 30 volunteers, mainly college students in the San Francisco area, polled a random sample of the U.S. population on their knowledge and views concerning Constitutional rights and the War on Terrorism. Of over 1000 people contacted, 215 from 46 states agreed to participate. Detailed results of the poll are reported on the web site.

Like the corporate polls we buy phone lists from a company which randomly generates and sells these lists for surveys and marketing purposes. Of the several hundred Americans one of us (Marc) personally spoke with, about 25-30% agreed to answer the questions. The others either declined or hung up. This isn't surprising. It is commonly accepted in public opinion research that in random samples usually 70% or more of those contacted will refuse to participate. With that single act, the refusers destroy the claim that the poll sampled people randomly. The results of any poll can honestly reflect the views of the general population only if the 70% who refuse to talk have nearly identical views to those who agree to be polled. If there are significant differences, the results can not be said to equate to public opinion.

Polls usually report out a statistical "margin of error" for their results. The margin of error that polls report depends not upon the number of people called but upon the number who responded, the sample size. They usually report a margin of error of about 3% for a sample size of 1000. But this margin of error statistic that makes polls look highly accurate is, in essence, a cover to hide the 70% who refused to participate. Even if 99% refused to participate and we had to speak to 100,000 people to find 1,000 who would talk with us, the margin of error statistic would still be reported as the same 3%. It would be hiding the problem of non-responders. So the margin of error statistic is not only inappropriate in this circumstance; it suggests a level of certainty that is fraudulent.

While it is always possible that those refusing have similar views to those agreeing to be polled, Retro Poll has found evidence to the contrary. When we asked over a thousand people, "would you take a few minutes to respond to a poll on the impact of the war on terrorism on the rights of the American people", one woman responded: "You wouldn't want to hear our view on that. People wouldn't like what we think."

"That's ok", we said, "your views are important; they should be counted and reported as part of the democratic process. We want your opinion to count." "No," the woman said insistently. "We're against the war the way they did it. We think they should just bomb all of them, not send our troops over there...." We didn't ask whether she meant bomb everyone in Iraq or some larger group of Muslims, or nations of people, but the woman's self-awareness that her views were outside the "norm" caused her to refuse to participate. Undoubtedly others have specific and different reasons for non-participation that we have difficulty ascertaining because most won't talk about it.

If the "bomb them all" couple may seem the exception among non-responders, consider this: Fewer African Americans and Latin Americans agreed to be polled in both of our national samples (in the current poll 5.7% were African Americans and in the prior poll 4%; for Latin Americans the corresponding figures were 6.2% and 8%. Each of these groups make up about 12% of the U.S. population, actually 12.5% for Latinos). As a result, our poll sample ended up at 79.4% "caucasian" ( i.e. European American) but the actual White/non-Hispanic European American proportion of the population is 69.1% according to the 2000 Census.

It is possible to improve the participation of underrepresented groups in a poll. Gallup reports on their web site that after completing a poll they weight the demographics to assure correct proportions are represented. Weighting means that you multiply the results of an underrepresented group by a factor that will bring their input up to intended and expected levels. Another thing that can be done is to simply over-sample in a population that is expected to self select out of the poll. If, for example, you want to double the number of African American responses you just begin with a sample that has 24% African Americans instead of 12%. These tricks of the trade work on paper and in statistical analysis but they both fail to address the important question "why would any particular group be less likely or more likely to participate? And "are these refusers different?"

If those questions sounds familiar they should. For this is just a more specific and powerful example of the pesky problem of the 70% refusers to participate in polls-the problem that won't go away. When we take it to the level of the under-representation of ethnic groups however it is easier to see that there are probably specific socio-political and/or economic reasons why some people are more likely to participate and others to not participate. These can include issues like English language skills, fears of being monitored by race, lack of self-confidence, or poor educational background. Any of these factors or dozens of others that may have an impact on peoples' decision would invalidate the principle of a random poll sample that can be used to represent the general public. If those African Americans who agreed to participate were more wealthy or better educated than those that refused, then adjusting their input upward by a multiplier (weighting them) to provide a bigger contribution would be a charade since their views might not represent those of less educated lower socio-economic classes of African Americans. You might, for example be inappropriately magnifying the views of a tiny group of African American Republicans.

But the pretense of random samples is only part of the polling problem.


Why are so many Polls Done?

In a recent investigative article on the Field Poll, a group at Poor News was able to tease out a key part of the polling fraud. When directly interviewed, Field Poll leaders claimed that poll publishers in the media and other big dollar poll funders have no influence on poll subject, content or interpretation. They claimed that Field researchers choose their own survey topics and the media financially supports them mainly by subscriptions. But when Poor investigators called and pretended to be interested in purchasing (i.e. commissioning) a particular poll, they were told by a Field Director that they would have to come up with 6 figures in big bucks to get what they wanted. The caller was given the example of a $100,000 poll funded by the San Francisco Chronicle and other unnamed sponsors which found renewed strong public support for nuclear power. Who funded that poll besides the Chronicle? The Field Director didn't say, but we might guess it was the energy industry.

The weak attempt to deny these practices actually conceals more ominous and detrimental purposes and impacts of these polls. Our April 2003 poll on public views concerning the Patriot Act, the War on Terrorism, civil rights and Iraq revealed a public totally confounded by the disinformation they receive from the media and Government, something that major polls almost never explore. For instance, when Americans hear specific provisions of the USA Patriot act, they oppose the intrusions of this law into their civil rights by a wide margin (average 77%). Yet when asked generally what impact the War on Terrorism is having upon civil rights, many of the same people say its "strengthening" or having "no impact" upon their rights (57%). This inner confusion and conflicting loyalties was exemplified by a 37- year -old woman from Udora, Kansas who rejected each of three provisions of the Patriot Act mentioned in the poll and also opposed the use of torture, other outlawed forms of coercion and lengthy prison detention without trial; she also supported a requirement that the U.S. must prove accusations against other nations before attacking them. However, when asked each of the following two questions: "should the U.S. support international efforts to prosecute war crimes," and "should the US make war against Iraq or other countries the government accuses of supporting terrorism when they are not attacking anyone," this same Kansan hesitated and replied: "I'm confused. What is Bush for? I want to do whatever Bush wants. I want to support the President".

One might think that the media would be fascinated with and want to study this contradictory phenomenon. But there are strong financial incentives for polls to provide a simpler picture, one which validates the sponsors and the government. Because most major polls are generated by the mass media and other corporate forces (including foundations that depend upon money from their parent corporations) they will aim to show public views to be consistent with the funders needs and wishes. The contradictions and confusion in the public outlook, which often derive from media disinformation, and government-media collaboration--being a source of embarrassment to the media--will tend to be suppressed.

Likewise, questions are often dumbed-down to create emotional mass responses rather than to challenge people to think and weigh an issue. Questions like: do you like the President? Is he doing a good job? Do you support the troops overseas? Is the war on terrorism protecting your rights (our question)? are actually biased toward the media's most recent slant on the issue. To say 'no' to any of these implies aberrance. Such questions require a person with a different perspective to risk identifying themselves as one of those dissenters and outsiders, as being against "our" young soldiers or as hating America, should they disagree.

People are so used to having such hidden assumptions placed into mass media and polling discourse that some inevitably find Retro Poll's attempts to neutralize such assumptions and bias to reflect "bias". For instance, the September 2002 Retro Poll contained this factual question (derived from If Americans Knew): "In the Palestinian uprising of the past 2 years 84 children were killed by one side before the other side killed a child. Were these 84 children killed by the Israeli Army, Palestinian militants, neither, don't know?" Obviously this factual question was chosen with a purpose in mind that would irritate the supporters of Ariel Sharon, but it is nevertheless a factual question, with a factual answer. Moreover it is a factual question aimed at examining the way that disinformation has been used in the mass media around the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation. Someone who knows the correct answer but prefers that such bitter and suppressed truths not be highlighted in public will rankle at this question and may call it biased for it challenges the widely held notion that the Palestinians initiated the terror against civilians. But the question itself is not biased, for those who do not know the answer will simply say so. The question actually measured bias in the mass media coverage when 13% of respondents (more than those who correctly said the Israeli Army), assumed it had to be the Palestinians rather than answering "don't know" (Retro Pollsters tell people it is better to answer "don't know" than to guess the answers to the factual questions).

Because major polls before the invasion consistently showed at least 2/3 of Americans opposed to attacking Iraq without UN approval, one might ask how it became important to so frequently ask people whether they support the invasion once war had begun. Was this meant to intimidate the majority into supporting an unprovoked war under color of being labeled disloyal and anti-American if they did not change their views? Everyone knows, certainly the media knows, that at the initiation of any war the public view will always appear to shift to support of government policies. This is a well-studied mass "loyalty" effect. By highlighting this shift and making it look like a measure of a real shift in public belief (rather than an inevitable byproduct of government action) the media polls fraudulently generated a snowball "pro-war" effect for the Government to feast on, although in actuality the revulsion at what the U.S. government was doing remained widespread. Such media behavior empowers right wing extremism, potentiates attacks on, and weakens the general public perception of, the peace movement.

The eagerness and frequency with which media conduct all types of polls is a measure of the extent to which relevant news and critical thinking are supplanted by the business of news marketing. Even the more "professional" and "reputable" polling outfits end up as prostitutes to all-powerful government, corporate and marketing forces and, as in the case of Field, they dare not admit that most of what they do is designed to insure the financial success of their organizations by pleasing their corporate funders with beneficial results.


Marc Sapir MD, MPH and Mickey Huff, MA
Retro Poll
www.retropoll.org
1326 Spruce Street
Berkeley, CA 94709
510-848-3826

Mickey S. Huff (mickeyhuff@mac.com) is adjunct faculty at Diablo Valley and Chabot Community Colleges in the San Francisco East Bay. He teaches American History and Critical Thinking and coordinates student outreach for Retro Poll. Marc Sapir (Msapir@compuserve.com) is an East Bay physician and media and peace activist. He directs the Retro Poll project at www.retropoll.org.
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:58 am

From
http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/new- ... n-and.html

But, the poll doesn't make sense on many levels. Here's one example: 45% of this poll's respondents are evangelicals or born-again Christians (this is on page 20 of the poll's crosstabs (it's a pdf):

Image

The problem? In 2004, evangelicals/born-again Christians made up 23% of voters. But that same group makes up 44% of likely voters in AP's poll released today. That's almost double the number - it's totally implausible.

In 2000 and 2004, there was a very aggressive push for the evangelical vote. In 2000, when the question was asked "Do you consider yourself part of the conservative Christian political movement," 14% of voters said "yes" in exit polls. In 2004, when the question was changed to "Would you describe yourself as a born-again or evangelical Christian?" - the very category AP uses in its current poll - 23% of voters said yes in exit polls.

Did you get that? The percentage of evangelicals/born-agains voting in 2004 was 23%. The percentage of evangelicals/born-agains that AP included in their likely voters scenario is 44%. That's almost twice as many. Consider that 79% of evangelicals voted Republican in the 2004 presidential elections, and we can assume that anyone calling themselves "born-again" might be more prone to voter Republican. This means AP disproportionately skewed its polling towards the GOP base. So it's no surprise that the AP poll shows McCain doing better than in other polls.

With such an outlier, one wonders why the brain trust at AP decided to move ahead releasing this poll. But, the AP brain trust loves McCain. It's not just Sidoti. Remember, AP's Washington bureau chief almost went to work for McCain. He's in that donut video, too.

As Nate Silver so clearly explains, the likely voter models being used by some pollsters, including AP's partner, GfK, aren't making sense. In fact, Nate has issued a challenge to the pollsters who have a wide gap in their models:
I would like to issue a challenge to those pollsters like Franklin & Marshall and GfK which in spite of all the facts above, are showing a substantial shift toward the Republicans when they apply their likely voter models. E-mail me -- my contact information is at the top of the page -- and tell me why you think what you're doing is good science.
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:02 am

.

FROM
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/ ... spect.html

Wednesday, October 22, 2008
Some Likely Voter Models are Suspect

There are eight current national polls that list separate sets of results for likely and registered voters. (In this case, for reasons that will be apparent momentarily, I am deliberately double-counting the two Gallup likely voter models). On average, Barack Obama leads by 9.8 points in the registered voter versions of these polls, but by 7.0 points in the likely voter versions -- nearly a 3-point difference:

Image

Note, however, that the likely voter models appear to segregate themselves into two clusters. In one cluster, there is a rather large, 4-6 point difference between registered and likely voter results. In the other cluster, there is essentially no difference.

The first cluster coincides with Gallup's so-called "traditional" likely voter model, which considers both a voter's stated intention and his past voting behavior. The second cluster coincides with their "expanded" likely voter model, which considers solely the voter's stated intentions. Note the philosophical difference between the two: in the "traditional" model, a voter can tell you that he's registered, tell you that he's certain to vote, tell you that he's very engaged by the election, tell you that he knows where his polling place is, etc., and still be excluded from the model if he hasn't voted in the past. The pollster, in other words, is making a determination as to how the voter will behave. In the "expanded" model, the pollster lets the voter speak for himself.

Frankly, I find polls showing a 4-6 point gap between likely and registered voters to be utterly ridiculous. Why?

1. Among people who have already voted, Democrats lead overwhelmingly. Zogby pegs Barack Obama's advantage at 27 points among people who have already voted. The New York Times details how Democrats are overperforming, sometimes dramatically, in states where early voting is underway. (By the way, the New York Times' data on Florida is wrong, as it includes absentee ballot requests as well as early voters. According to an Open Left diarist, Democrats have a 24-point advantage among those who have actually voted early in Florida).

Pollsters ought to make certain that they're asking people whether they've already voted. Moreover, they ought to be putting these early voters through their likely voter models as a sanity check. That is, they should be testing to see whether a substantial number of people who have actually voted would in fact have been excluded by their likely voter screens. If the answer to this question is yes, they ought to be asking themselves whether their likely voter models have any basis in reality.

2. Enthusiasm is much higher among Democrats than among Republicans. The latest Diageo/Hotline numbers show that 72 percent of Democrats are enthusiastic about voting for their candidate, as opposed to 55 percent of Republicans.

3. Most likely voter models are unlikely to distinguish newly registered voters from what I would call lapsed registered voters. If someone is registered, and has been registered for a long while, but has not cast a ballot since they pulled the lever for Ross Perot in 1992, there is good reason to be skeptical about their intentions. On the other hand, voters who are newly registered have quite literally demonstrated their interest in the 2008 campaign; they are in fact quite likely to vote. Barack Obama's advantages are principally from among the newly-registered voter group.

4. There is an enormous discrepancy in the strength of the Republican and Democratic turnout operations. In past elections, such as 2004, this advantage favored the Republicans; in this one, it favors the Democrats. Barack Obama has somewhere between a 2:1 and a 4:1 advantage in field offices in most battleground states. He is relying almost exclusively on volunteers (the exception are a couple of cities like Philadelphia and Detroit, where Obama will most likely pay 'street money' to canvassers on Election Day). McCain, meanwhile, has already had to hire paid canvassers in Florida, and perhaps he will also in several other states.

5. Turnout among 'unlikely' voter blocks was substantially up during the Democratic primaries. Youth voters (18-29 year olds) increased their share of the Democratic electorate by 52 percent. Latino voters increased their share by 42 percent. Black voters increased their share by 8 percent.

I would like to issue a challenge to those pollsters like Franklin & Marshall and GfK which in spite of all the facts above, are showing a substantial shift toward the Republicans when they apply their likely voter models. E-mail me -- my contact information is at the top of the page -- and tell me why you think what you're doing is good science.

-- Nate Silver at 1:52 PM
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:27 pm

.

Now that the official results are in, Nate Silver looks like the new gold standard. Fivethirtyeight.com got Indiana wrong as light pink (it was light blue) and correctly called 49 out of 50 states, including the near-tie in Missouri (the only state it had as a toss-up, this was the last to be called a week later). It also had the popular vote total within 0.1 percent.

Presumably there was plenty of fraud on the ground, but it doesn't look like machines were deployed for McCain.

One thing the results suggest is that the almost 4 million extra white big-city voters who mysteriously appeared for Bush in 2004 (even as all other demographcics remained with roughly the same splits as in 2000) were phantoms of the vote count, and were gone again this year. Supposedly the final turnout in 2008 was almost the same as in 2004, weird given the record-breaking lines and huge early voting turnout. That would start to make more sense if you peel off the urban phantoms.

Discussion here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 81#4426526

Check this out:

Image

Image

autorank of DU wrote:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00165.htm

FIGURES 6 & 7. According to the NEP, white voters contributed less than 5 million votes to the big city segment in 2000 but almost 9 million in 2004. This is worthy of the term “surge.” They accounted almost exclusively for the increase from 2.3 million to 5.9 million big city votes for Bush from 2000 to 2004. Where did they come from? We may never know but they “won” the election.


Election 2004: The Urban Legend
Wednesday, 13 June 2007, 5:43 pm
Article: Michael Collins
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00165.htm


Caveat lector. I haven't researched this deeply enough but throw it out there - this is after all a discussion board, not an article.

.
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby 2012 Countdown » Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:21 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.

One thing the results suggest is that the almost 4 million extra white big-city voters who mysteriously appeared for Bush in 2004 (even as all other demographcics remained with roughly the same splits as in 2000) were phantoms of the vote count, and were gone again this year. Supposedly the final turnout in 2008 was almost the same as in 2004, weird given the record-breaking lines and huge early voting turnout. That would start to make more sense if you peel off the urban phantoms.


This is why I've always speculated that some operatives were registering 'republicans' by tricking their targets. Stories about republican voter drives operating by telling people they were registering for 'pot legalization', or other some such false pretense. In 2004 those stories were rampant.

Item 2, more recent example-

Blogged by John Gideon on 10/19/2008 2:04PM
BREAKING: CA GOP Vote Registration Contractor Arrested for Registration Fraud, Perjury
Yesterday the Los Angeles Times reported on the Republican voter registration outfit who had allegedly been illegally changing thousands of registrations from Democratic to Republican.

Last night the head of that GOP backed group, Mark Anthony Jacoby of Young Political Majors (YPM), was arrested by the California State Election Fraud Taskforce and Oxnard, CA Police.


http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6534

====

My simple speculation is, they feel they need to secretly/artificially/illegally fluff up the 'republican' voter roles so that if/when they rig the vote, it would hide the theft.
User avatar
2012 Countdown
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:27 am
Blog: View Blog (0)


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 175 guests