Jani's at the mercy of her mind

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Postby Bridge It » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:18 pm

I had an imaginary friend when I was young named Crape Myrtle. No problems with Crape Myrtle.

My child had three imaginary friends. We had Hannah and Emily (who she could hold in her hands and were always together) and then we had Billy Colby who only appeared in a particular park on a particular swing set. All of them were delightful and all of them disappeared from my child’s life by the age of 4.

What concerns me most when I read this story is 400 the cat. Sounds too much like Jody the pig, telling her to do "bad things."

A lot of people here will poo poo the notion, I'm sure, but the general consensus among Roman Catholic exorcists is that persistent animal appearances/visions/delusions is a common a sign of possession. Especially those that "instruct" the individual experiencing the phenomenon to do certain things. Did I read right in that "400" told her to jump out a window?
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Postby American Dream » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:35 pm

I'm behind the curve now, but the previous mention of art and madness made me think I should post this:

The new show on Madness Radio asks, Does modern art, such as Artaud,
Beckett, and Duchamp, parallel the mad frames of mind that get labeled
"schizophrenia?" How is extreme inner self-consciousness behind both
artistic innovation and breaks with reality? Rutgers University
psychologist Louis Sass, author of Madness And Modernism: Insanity in
the Light of Modern Art, Literature, and Thought, discusses art as an
insight into the subjective inner world of madness. lsass@rci.rutgers.edu

For more info -- http://www.madnessradio.net

Download episode file directly:
http://www.madnessradio.net/audio/downl ... isSass.mp3
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Postby RomanyX » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:50 pm

Bridge It wrote: Did I read right in that "400" told her to jump out a window?

According to the article, she's tried to jump out a window twice. The first attempt was at home last Fall--no context given. This year she tried it again (among other "acting out" behaviors) when she wanted to leave school to go see her little brother. It's possible she was just trying to escape the building, or 400 could have made a suggestion in both cases. But the article doesn't say. You may be thinking of this:
Fresno_Layshaft wrote:The responses to this article are pretty creepy. Whenever the subject of mental illness comes up here, the reactions are strong and perplexing. Some, oddly, seem fiercely protective of mental illness itself, I don't know how else to describe it. It's strange.

I mean, there was nothing strange or sinister about that story at all. It was just the story of a sick child and her desperate, suffering parents. The illness happened to be schizophrenia, and the only way to treat that is with strong drugs, that nobody wants to give to a child. But what is the alternative? Let 400 The Cat tell Jani to jump out the window?
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They all look so harmless
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Postby Mask » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:07 pm

This thread reminds me of the "School of Shock" article, which tells of a school where mentally disturbed students are jolted into good behavior. -Link-

[The school's founder and executive director, Matthew Israel] has about 230 "clients", full-time students at the Rotenberg Center who are mentally retarded, developmentally disabled with diseases like autism, or have been diagnosed with ailments such as depression, schizophrenia, or conduct disorder.

[...]

Parker [the school's head of programming] has been at the Rotenberg Center for two decades, and bears scars from students who scratched her; she has had her ribs cracked three times. "We witness the tremendous progress that they've made," she says, explaining her longevity. "And I really think it's the GED," referring to the Graduated Electronic Decelerator, the shocking device's technical name.

Some of the scariest students never need the shocks; according to staff members, the mere threat of an electric jolt alone snaps them into shape. Other students actually ask to be wired up, say staff members, because they witness the improvement their peers make and the privileges they earn. But other kids don't have to ask. As Israel and Parker lead their tour of the facility, a staff member walks to the bathroom leading a kid wearing protective mitts. Every few steps the kid stops, shouts something inarticulate, then moves on. Finally, he makes it to the toilet.

"Hmmm," Parker frowns.

"Yes," Israel says, "it might be time for the GED."


Image

Disgusting.
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Postby Nordic » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:19 pm

The "sleep disorder" argument is a real chicken vs. egg sort of thing.

For instance, people who are manic don't sleep hardly at all. People who are bipolar, when in a manic state, hardly sleep at all.

But the lack of sleep is not CAUSING the mania.

Ya know?

People are bringing up many good points here, but they are also hastily jumping to conclusions from reading an LA Times article.

Yes, most kids have imaginary friends, but most of them don't urge the kids to jump out of 2nd story windows.

The girl is obviously messed up in some way. It's a tragic situation, given that her parents are under such an ungodly amount of stress from it that they probably have no proper judgement left.

It's very easy to judge someone when not in their shoes. You go live with this child for a while, along with the realization that this child is YOURS and you have to deal with her the rest of your life, there's no break from this -- and see how you feel after a year or so.

I just hope that everybody involved gets the help they need, from people who can provide it.
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Postby monster » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:53 pm

I AM OUTRAGED
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby Penguin » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:55 pm

Bridge It wrote:
A lot of people here will poo poo the notion, I'm sure, but the general consensus among Roman Catholic exorcists is that persistent animal appearances/visions/delusions is a common a sign of possession. Especially those that "instruct" the individual experiencing the phenomenon to do certain things. Did I read right in that "400" told her to jump out a window?


Is 'possession' somehow the sole property and expertise of the catholic church?

;)
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Postby Trifecta » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:17 pm

It just possible that between the lines of consensus reality and sleep lies subtler worlds not intuited by controlled reality. If these worlds can be verbalised correctly they will surely lead us to a truer understanding of the multi dimensional worlds we inhabit, in wake, theta and sleep.

MacCruiskeen bravo.
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Postby RomanyX » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:35 pm

Penguin wrote:
Bridge It wrote:
A lot of people here will poo poo the notion, I'm sure, but the general consensus among Roman Catholic exorcists is that persistent animal appearances/visions/delusions is a common a sign of possession. Especially those that "instruct" the individual experiencing the phenomenon to do certain things. Did I read right in that "400" told her to jump out a window?


Is 'possession' somehow the sole property and expertise of the catholic church?

;)

Yup. All rites reserved. :twisted:
Oh Perfect Masters,
They thrive on disasters;
They all look so harmless
'Til they find their way up there...
- Brian Eno, Dead Finks Don't Talk
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Postby OP ED » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:53 pm

i am curious about the "schizophrenia" diagnosis.

here in the united states this phrase can mean at least three distinct states. of these three states, only one of them, the organic, hole-in-the-brain sort of scizophrenia is only currently treatable [success ratio] with hardcore chemistry. the other two are, well, not really schizophrenia and can be treated in a number of ways, most of which i'd suggest are things the Psychiatrists i know would treat somewhat less aggressively, especially in a six yr old.

anyone know where we can look at the kid's PET scans?

[which should be a mandatory requisite for this sort of harsh treatment]
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Postby happenstance » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:28 pm

this article reminded me of John Lennon reflecting on his childhood:


“Surrealism had a great effect on me, because then I realized that my imagery and my mind wasn’t insanity; that if it was insane, I belong in an exclusive club that sees the world in those terms. Surrealism to me is reality. Psychic vision to me is reality. Even as a child. When I looked at myself in the mirror when I was 12, 13, I literally used to trance out into alpha. I didn’t know what it was called then. I found out years later there’s a name for those conditions. But I would find myself seeing hallucinatory images of my face changing and becoming cosmic and complete. This thing gave me a chip on the shoulder; but, on the other hand, I wanted to be loved and accepted. Part of me would like to be accepted by all facets of society and not be this loudmouthed lunatic musician. But I cannot be what I am not.”
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Postby lightningBugout » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:39 pm

compared2what? wrote:you're still talking and thinking only about doctors and treatments, rather than the people who have the problem.


No not at all. I'm talking about the effects on patients and those who care about them of having their condition translated to them by doctors who are painfully unsophisticated in their understanding of holistic medicine ne cosmology. I am absolutely and totally concerned with the patients and am speaking of the docs and treatments because they are often what stand in the way of a patient exploring other avenues, esp. when said docs are not progressive.

I want to get away from this girl. It feels a bit obscene to suggest I really have any understanding of their situation, so I would prefer to speak in the larger picture where I feel comfortable.

A meaningful picture. My mother is a cardiologist and recently sent a 6 yo patient home after surgery. The child suddenly manifested all sorts of behavioral disturbance -- aggression, hoarding his feces, etc -- this was initially considered by the tending psychologists to be a symptom of traumatic regression until it was later discovered the surgery had created a physical abnormality that had led to a disturbance in brain wave state. Point being, the diagnosis was entirely wrong when given through the state of specialized medicine. Only through a holistic approach was the problem correctly understood and treated.

Despite the larger burgeoning social interest in holism et al, its nothing close to the norm in allopathic medicine. That's a big part of my concern. I am particularly interested in nutrition and so I have learned a great deal about the use of diet to essentially cure diabetes and avoid heart disease as well as greatly reduce the risk of cancer yet I am aware that at least 80% of physicians really have never done the research or reading to be aware of this.
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Postby lightningBugout » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:49 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:Christ alone knows exactly what those medical authorities would have done to William Blake or Emily Bronte. Drugged them out of existence, presumably. There's not a doubt in hell that those blind self-serving quacks would have succeeded brilliantly, one way or another, in preventing them from becoming who they eventually managed to be.


Mr Cruise Skiing, I share your ire in the abstract (and am actually reminded that the phrase "paracosm" came into being, I believe, wrt the fully populated and highly sophisticated imaginary parallel worlds created by the Brontes which, cough cough represssed memory, were forgotten for years to be fully "recovered" in adulthood) but the truth is there is a maddening conflation I sense in your writing - yes the culture is flattening, hierarchical and authoritarian and so many of the revolutionaries of the past, artistic or otherwise, would today be given an RX. BUT there truly are children who develop psychoses. I know of one who began breaking into strangers' homes and defecating in their sinks as well as slaughtering animals at 8 yo. Or look @ the cat serial killer kid smirking in his mug shot. If we cannot recognize the latter we are also unlikely to recognize the very wide variety of possible cause of such disturbance, from pollution (chemical, biological and electromagnetic) to culture.
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Postby lightningBugout » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:51 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:Somebody has to help that child, really. I wish Wilhelm Reich was still alive. Or at least Laing.

I'm going to mail that article to Alice Miller (any port in a storm). It's just fucking outrageous. If that screed can appear in the LA Times without provoking a storm of protest, it's no wonder hardly anyone gives a shit about Guantanamo or Abu Graibh or even the normal US prison system.


I forwarded the piece to my energy healer friend (truly a genius) who is located in LA in hopes she will consider offering her service free of charge. But you gotta love Alice Miller too....
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Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:24 am

OP ED wrote:i am curious about the "schizophrenia" diagnosis.

here in the united states this phrase can mean at least three distinct states. of these three states, only one of them, the organic, hole-in-the-brain sort of scizophrenia is only currently treatable [success ratio] with hardcore chemistry. the other two are, well, not really schizophrenia and can be treated in a number of ways, most of which i'd suggest are things the Psychiatrists i know would treat somewhat less aggressively, especially in a six yr old.

anyone know where we can look at the kid's PET scans?

[which should be a mandatory requisite for this sort of harsh treatment]


Thank you for having the ability to remind me that there is a true and monstrous problem in the real world that has nothing to do with the phantom projection of the board's collective narcissistic wounds about which most of the ranting and raving and cursing of the darkness on these subjects is generally directed. With a few assists from the PR specialists who ended up paying the most for the global rights to distribute the basic narrative parameters within which the ranting and raving ought to be channeled, as well as the guard-rails that keep it there.

Honey, the chances that her insurance was willing to pay for a PET scan, and that it was done competently, and that it was viewed insightfully by someone who knew what he or she was looking for and at are so remote as to be practically non-existent. And now that you mention it, I wonder how extensive even the really old-school pencil and paper (or crayon and computer, or stuffed animal, or house-person-tree or whatever) psychometric testing was. Because my guess would be: They barely did any. And that stuff's worthless unless you do so much of it that it turns the corner into: One of the most underutilized diagnostic instruments there is. Almost no insurance company's going to pay for as many labor hours as it would take to do a really thorough formal evaluation of even a mildly depressed child, let alone a frantically troubled and physically uncontrollable child. Plus, it kind of goes without saying, the value of every one of those tests, whether cutting edge or as-old-as-the-inkblot, that has any validity at all is very limited by itself. It really should be mandatory to do all of the ones that are non-invasive and have some chance of producing a meaningful result. At least then you'd have something more like a real starting place and less like the drugs-are-bad/good/the-best-or-only-option, children-are-wild-animals/need-structure, your-father-and-I-have-always-done-the-best-we-can free-for-all of passionately held theories, all of which have their pros and cons, but none of which are any more likely to be relevant to this child's well-being than any other.

Both the human mind and the human brain are way too complex for the human mind or the human brain to comprehend in more than a pretty partial and general sense, imo. Whether by theory or science. And a really tiny factor can make a pretty substantial difference. So you might as well ascertain everything that's ascertainable, such as it is.

For which the state should pay in full. Of course. But never will. Of course.

Also...I harbor some very faint and pale hope that a sleep disorder at least got some serious consideration as a rule-out. If only because it's something most pediatric-whatever-ists are aware of in some vague and general way. But certainly not enough to hang my hat on the proposition. I would just hope.

Actually, the thing that struck me as the only really strong indicator of some kind of parental culpability was the part about how they would run around with her thirteen or fourteen hours a day when she was an infant. I've never known any new parents who were so stupid or so freaked out or so clueless or so self-centered, or so some-combination-of-the-forgoing that their inability to distinguish the boundaries between themselves and their newborns led them to spend several years torturing a colicky baby without even knowing it. But I've known a whole grip of them who came close enough that it's a whole lot easier to imagine than I wish it were. Or than should ever even be possible. But you know. It's not like you have to get a license to have a baby.
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