Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby norton ash » Sat May 15, 2010 12:40 pm

Some old oversexed Irish weirdo wrote
Among School Children
I

I walk through the long schoolroom questioning;
A kind old nun in a white hood replies;
The children learn to cipher and to sing,
To study reading-books and histories,
To cut and sew, be neat in everything
In the best modern way - the children's eyes
In momentary wonder stare upon
A sixty-year-old smiling public man.

II

I dream of a Ledaean body, bent
Above a sinking fire. a tale that she
Told of a harsh reproof, or trivial event
That changed some childish day to tragedy -
Told, and it seemed that our two natures blent
Into a sphere from youthful sympathy,
Or else, to alter Plato's parable,
Into the yolk and white of the one shell.

III

And thinking of that fit of grief or rage
I look upon one child or t'other there
And wonder if she stood so at that age -
For even daughters of the swan can share
Something of every paddler's heritage -
And had that colour upon cheek or hair,
And thereupon my heart is driven wild:
She stands before me as a living child.

IV

Her present image floats into the mind -
Did Quattrocento finger fashion it
Hollow of cheek as though it drank the wind
And took a mess of shadows for its meat?
And I though never of Ledaean kind
Had pretty plumage once - enough of that,
Better to smile on all that smile, and show
There is a comfortable kind of old scarecrow.

V

What youthful mother, a shape upon her lap
Honey of generation had betrayed,
And that must sleep, shriek, struggle to escape
As recollection or the drug decide,
Would think her Son, did she but see that shape
With sixty or more winters on its head,
A compensation for the pang of his birth,
Or the uncertainty of his setting forth?

VI

Plato thought nature but a spume that plays
Upon a ghostly paradigm of things;
Solider Aristotle played the taws
Upon the bottom of a king of kings;
World-famous golden-thighed Pythagoras
Fingered upon a fiddle-stick or strings
What a star sang and careless Muses heard:
Old clothes upon old sticks to scare a bird.

VII

Both nuns and mothers worship images,
But those the candles light are not as those
That animate a mother's reveries,
But keep a marble or a bronze repose.
And yet they too break hearts - O Presences
That passion, piety or affection knows,
And that all heavenly glory symbolise -
O self-born mockers of man's enterprise;

VIII

Labour is blossoming or dancing where
The body is not bruised to pleasure soul.
Nor beauty born out of its own despair,
Nor blear-eyed wisdom out of midnight oil.
O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?


Or the medium from the message? The dancing is great, reflective of street-feats influencing, advancing, enriching the art form. The dancers are little girls.

The message, though, is informed by the titty bar, 'Showgirls' and hotstuff videos... dig my strength, skill, stamina, and seductiveness... this time by way of an Alvin and the Chipmunks filter... brought to you by the same entertainment monoliths that have always made cartoons and kids' shows creepy-sexy.

It's inevitable, I guess. Just as every major city peopled by the rich is a magnet for young flesh (fashion, arts, ambition, being where it's at) that same Empire will create a culture of pliant beauty.

What the Empire tells us will make us empowered will make us slaves.

Have Sparkle Motion washed and brought to my tent.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby barracuda » Sat May 15, 2010 1:03 pm

norton ash wrote:The message, though, is informed by the titty bar, 'Showgirls' and hotstuff videos...


Actually, no, it is pretty much emphatically not. The moves which are probably generating the most objections - based, as they are, on prurience - are the intense pelvic thrusting and the "drop it like its hot" grind at the end of the video. Both these moves have their genesis in the crunk scene and house music or hip hop dancing of the black inner city, and have about no relationship to "titty bars" or Showgirls, a film which you might review to verify this.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby norton ash » Sat May 15, 2010 1:09 pm

Fair enough, those moves are straight outta crunk. But a line of dancers in skimpy costumes is Broadway/Vegas... or Showgirls, a film as accidentally weird and flesh-crawly in its own way as Donnie Darko or Blue Velvet, and the touchstone I chose.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby barracuda » Sat May 15, 2010 1:13 pm

Oh yeah - Broadway! How very shocking and oppressive.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby norton ash » Sat May 15, 2010 1:17 pm

And how Amish of me to imply that much of Broadway (and LA and Vegas) is sick and cruel and exploitative to the marrow, always has been.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby barracuda » Sat May 15, 2010 1:26 pm

I didn't realise you were Amish. My comments must have seemed rather insensitive in relation to your religious beliefs. Apologies.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby norton ash » Sat May 15, 2010 1:32 pm

S'all right. It's why I wear the black and white and this computer is made of fine old hickory.

California -- you're soaking in it.
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Is it too soon?

Postby annie aronburg » Sat May 15, 2010 1:35 pm

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby barracuda » Sat May 15, 2010 1:38 pm

norton ash wrote:S'all right. It's why I wear the black and white and this computer is made of fine old hickory.

California -- you're soaking in it.


Gratitude for your forbearance, brother. But even a fellow of the plain people must recognise that a line of dancers wearing skimpy costumes is part of a tradition that goes back well beyond the neon lights of the great white way.

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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby norton ash » Sat May 15, 2010 2:01 pm

"Whenever a feeling of aversion comes into the heart of a good soul, it is not without significance. Consider that intuitive wisdom to be a Divine attribute, not a vain suspicion: the light of the heart has apprehended intuitively from the Universal Tablet." -- Rumi


See, that's the heart of the matter, that FEELING of aversion, to look at something and feel... know? ...that it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

And how interesting that this little shitstorm is burning up the web.

The scene in Little Miss Sunshine had me both tearing my hair and laughing with embarrassment and discomfort, and I know I'm not alone.

It's difficult and dangerous to debate the visceral, innit... sublime, ridiculous.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby 82_28 » Sat May 15, 2010 2:08 pm

barracuda wrote:Well if you wanna go there, nathan, the contest was held in California. For those of you not acclimated to local custom, it is a total commonplace here to see girls and women of every age wearing halter tops and short shorts, as well as shirtless boys and men in what would be referred to anywhere else as bathing attire, in every conceivable social situation, and nobody bats an eye. I'm not necessarily proud of that fact, but it is a fact. I rather doubt, though, that venacular California bedizen had any bearing on the choice of constumes in this particular case. I'm only saying that encountering rather provocative dressing modes of near-nudity is, in this state, remarkably unexceptional.


It's funny, I was just thinking about how hard it is to get into summer garb up here in Seattle when you go most of the year with 2 under layers, a hoodie and then a coat on top of that. Now that the weather is getting "nice", I am beginning to feel naked because I need to shed everything I am used to wearing. The other day these sorority girls were traipsing down the sidewalk near UW campus in bikinis. Seeing this sort of thing in the PNW is ABSURD to the eye. In fact, as I write this, my hood is up over my head and today is supposed to get into the low 70's. For now, this seems way too hot for me. I do adapt as summer wears on, but for now, I just hate taking off my hoodie!
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby lightningBugout » Sat May 15, 2010 3:44 pm

barracuda wrote:Right. It seems unlikely that some familiar set of gestures and apparel can drive one to perversion when wielded by a child. Though I don't think that's necessarily what LBO meant.


It is what I meant but framed a bit differently. That is to say - if it is true it is so because quotidian hetero male sexuality in this country is often already perverse or aberrant, perhaps. I blame that on advertising mostly and so, for me, my case is strengthened by the intense revolution in complex marketing towards children since the early 1980s.

BTW, choosing some effective signifier to refer to - the median range of typical sexual fantasy content and behavior among "men" who self-identify as "straight" - is impossible. Hence I didn't try too hard and went with "regular heterosexual men."

I think it would be difficult to argue that normative, middle of the road heteronormative male sexuality, at least in its collective representation in media, is *healthy." The fetishizing of objects and actions is very common - in this country normative sexuality is often basically a multi-faceted fetish of conventions, gestures, behaviors, accoutrements, etc. I've known many countless men who seemed to be blanketly (and solely) attracted to your average playboy centerfold or hollywood-decreed "hot" chick.I consider it a fact that today we see those fetish objects, gestures, etc being applied to increasingly younger girls.

It seems a predictable enough outcome to assume some of the sexuality attached to those fetishes is going to travel along with them, no?

Unless of course the moral/ethical awareness that such attraction is wrong forces people to deny or otherwise quell that desire.

Which is why I worry a bit that public presentations like this one stage a collective experience where some sort of approval is implicit and could sanction such aberrant sexuality in people who would not have otherwise been predisposed.

Do you hold enough faith that healthy human sexuality somehow essentially survives beneath all that fetishizing in such a way that when the culture seems to be largely giving its permission (through, like, say little girls being put into collective public performance of adult sexuality) to see children through that gaze, the same men who seem to have a pavlovian basis for attraction to playboy centerfolds (so outdated, I know) are not going to have a similar reaction here?

I'm basically arguing that kids are being sexualized en masse and have been for some time. That its a fairly jarring phenomena loaded with ambiguity and that the recognition thereof (probably very often not conscious) forces our collective consciousness into an untenable position of ambiguity that then creates a need to externalize that little crisis. Which is why I suspect that Nancy Grace et al have created a cottage industry by identifying instances of the most shocking child abuse (that is the psycopath lone wolf pedophile who murders kids but NOT the insidious, commonplace abuse of kids by parents and acquaintances) and treating those stories as among the most important in our media landscape. There is a collective need to affirm just how much the culture hates pedophiles because there are a slew of trends in the common culture that are constantly bombarding us with the suggestion of children as sex objects.

But, again, I don't think this video is unusual really. And I don't think its particularly shocking.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby lightningBugout » Sat May 15, 2010 4:42 pm

nathan28 wrote: Speaking of 'scapegoats' and victims http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=10651572


Can you elaborate on this Nathan?
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby barracuda » Sat May 15, 2010 5:00 pm

lightningBugout wrote:I think it would be difficult to argue that normative, middle of the road heteronormative male sexuality, at least in its collective representation in media, is *healthy." The fetishizing of objects and actions is very common - in this country normative sexuality is often basically a multi-faceted fetish of conventions, gestures, behaviors, accoutrements, etc. I've known many countless men who seemed to be blanketly (and solely) attracted to your average playboy centerfold or hollywood-decreed "hot" chick.


The representation of sexuality put forth in the media is a very different thing from actual sexual response in the field. I doubt in many ways that modern media repetition has significantly affected, in a general way, the male sexual response to female secondary sex characteristics as they might have been found four hundred years ago. That is, can we point to a significant male fetishisation in the scope of the larger - presumably heteronormative - population of a physical type which is pushed at us daily in the media: that of the near-anorexic ectomorphic body type? Not really, rather, the cliche "typical" hawt chick still remains the large breasted, wide-hipped women commonly painted by Rubens or Boucher. Admittedly, there are differences, but given the choice between Gina Lolabrigida and Kate Moss, most men throughout history will choose the former. Ourt media would prefer to pretend this is not so, or a huge industry devoted to convincing women that they are overweight would collapse.

(A good book which might relate to this subject is Anne Hollander's Seeing Through Clothes.)

I consider it a fact that today we see those fetish objects, gestures, etc being applied to increasingly younger girls.

It seems a predictable enough outcome to assume some of the sexuality attached to those fetishes is going to travel along with them, no?


Some, perhaps. But if I encounter, say, a hawt-looking M&M, carrying the cultural baggage and accoutrements of mediated sexuality it is very unlikely that I would subsequently seek out M&Ms to rub on my penis, unless I was highly predisposed to such behavior in the first place.

Image

Unless of course the moral/ethical awareness that such attraction is wrong forces people to deny or otherwise quell that desire.


It is neither moral nor ethical awareness of the wrongness of pedophilia which prevents heteronormative individuals from engaging in that behaviour. I don't have to "hold myself back because I know inside that my impulse is wrong" when I encounter, for examplle, a little girl in a frilly bikini. I simply have no such impulse whatsoever. I don't look at a little girl in an "adult" outfit, and say to myself "Ooo, that's kinda hot, maybe I should go fuck my girlfriend, quick!" Not unless I'm a perv-ola.

Do you hold enough faith that healthy human sexuality somehow essentially survives beneath all that fetishizing in such a way that when the culture seems to be largely giving its permission (through, like, say little girls being put into collective public performance of adult sexuality) to see children through that gaze, the same men who seem to have a pavlovian basis for attraction to playboy centerfolds (so outdated, I know) are not going to have a similar reaction here?


Yes, I do. Frilly underpanties on little girls don't drive "real men" to pedophilia.
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Re: Is This What I Have To Look Forward To With My Daughter?

Postby lightningBugout » Sat May 15, 2010 5:36 pm

barracuda wrote:Some, perhaps. But if I encounter, say, a hawt-looking M&M, carrying the cultural baggage and accoutrements of mediated sexual it is very unlikely that I would subsequently seek out M&Ms to rub on my penis, unless I was highly predisposed to such behavior in the first place.

Image



I don't think that's a great example. As far as I know there is no cultural history of shifting boundaries demarcating the appropriateness of human/transhuman (or at least trans-animal) sexual behaviors, with chocolate snacks or otherwise. Whereas there is with pedophilia.

Unless of course the moral/ethical awareness that such attraction is wrong forces people to deny or otherwise quell that desire.


It is neither moral nor ethical awareness of the wrongness of pedophilia which prevents heteronormative individuals from engaging in that behaviour. I don't have to "hold myself back because I know inside that my impulse is wrong" when I encounter, for examplle, a little girl in a frilly bikini. I simply have no such impulse whatsoever. I don't look at a little girl in an "adult" outfit, and say to myself "Ooo, that's kinda hot, maybe I should go fuck my girlfriend, quick!" Not unless I'm a perv-ola.


On a less-than-conscious level I think that moral/ethical awareness is how cultures regulate all sorts of norms. One might imply based on your reply that (and without reading what I wrote) I had made an argument about sexy clothes provoking rape et al. Which could not be further from the truth. Though I, of course, do not hold you accountable for how that might be interpreted.

Do you hold enough faith that healthy human sexuality somehow essentially survives beneath all that fetishizing in such a way that when the culture seems to be largely giving its permission (through, like, say little girls being put into collective public performance of adult sexuality) to see children through that gaze, the same men who seem to have a pavlovian basis for attraction to playboy centerfolds (so outdated, I know) are not going to have a similar reaction here?


Yes, I do. Frilly underpanties on little girls don't drive "real men" to pedophilia.


Frilly underpants are nothing new. Public group performances of children acting out popular sexy music videos is a good bit newer.

I assume you agree that aberrant/non-aberrant sexuality is (largely) constructed relationally by cultures over long periods of time. Is there some reason to conclude this is not happening in our culture as well? I do sense you hold a lot more faith in sexual behavior and response being biologically determined than I do. Do you not, for example, think the role of pornography in our culture has experienced a sea-change since the web became universal?
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