Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

[Percival]

Israel has a right to defend itself.

Everyone has that right — but when mass murderers invoke this right in defense of their madness and mayhem, people heap scorn upon them, and laughter upon their defenders.

If Israel is your definition of "mass murderer", and I wont argue your point, then there are very few nations, if any, who are not.

Israel isn't my "definition of a mass murderer."

Israel is a mass murderer, as this incident clearly demonstrates.

And you're defending Israel's murderous actions. Few here are surprised.

No, I am defending the right of Israel to protect itself from a militant terrorist organization and do what it must to prevent arms from being smuggled to that organization.

[Simulist]

Well, as more witnesses arrive I expect we'll hear a lot more of this. I'm sure Obomber's idea of letting Israel investigate will put these people under oath.
Where are the missing kidnapped? Rumors say they were thrown into the sea.

... When the Israeli forces picked him up, Larudee said, he was severely beaten and tied to a mast at the stern of their ship. His legs and hands were bound as he was subjected to the hot sun in wet soaking clothes for four hours. He said his body almost went into shock from the extreme hot and cold conditions.

.... When on land, Larudee was taken to the processing area, but refused to cooperate with authorities, ... More beating ensued. Larudee, who again let his body go limp, said he was carried by nylon restraints, which were placed on his arms and legs. They cut into his skin, causing more contusions and deep pain. He was carried into an ambulance and taken to a hospital, but wasn't treated.

... On the third day,... . Larudee refused to cooperate and was once again subjected to a beating by Israeli soldiers."But this time they did it in front of 30 to 40 other prisoners, who had seen similar things," he said. "They went nuts."

... Larudee was finally allowed to leave Israel. He's now in Greece, where he says he's staying with friends who are taking care of him. He is scheduled to fly home to the states on June 11.

"A lot of Americans are looking at Israel through rose-colored glasses,"

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/ ... index.html

Not even I will deny that this whole show of force, PROVOKED AS IT WERE, was a "dont fuck with the Jews" moment, but again, and something nobody in their right mind can defend, the people of the Gaza elected terrorists to represent them so they are being treated accordingly.

Quit conflating the behavior of Israel with "the Jews."

(And he says his role here isn't to incite...)

[Sweejak]

Horton just had a rather uncomfortable interview with Grayson, I'd love to see a re-do but Horton gets kudos for asking the tough ones. Anyway I want to mention a couple of things that I forgot.
Israel broke the cease fire prior to Cast Lead, and Hamas executed missileers firing into Israel. See, to me those facts on this never ending wheel of violence get left out in the ISRA/US dialog. I'd forgotten myself. Also things like "Gaza isn't occupied, the Israeli's left!" as if being in a prison between walls is being free. Talk about Orwellian.
Or "As long as people continue to support Hamas...." How about "As long as people continue to support Netanyahu"

[Percival]

Do you seriously suggest Israel simply allow ships to freely come and go, to and from the shores of the Gaza? If this were to happen, Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qeada would have nuclear capability in no time. IF the people of the Gaza were to stop supporting Hamas and Israel still denied them the aid they need I would be the first to condemn Israel for it, but as it stands Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place, they cannot simply allow ships to freely travel those waters without inspection. Its a matter of the Israeli citizens life and limb.

I doubt you have ever been there and seen just how frightening it is to have shells rain down from the sky at all hours of the day and night without a moments notice. Thats how we, the people of Israel, live daily.

[Simulist]

I doubt you have ever been there and seen just how frightening it is to have shells rain down from the sky at all hours of the day and night without a moments notice.

I can't imagine how the Palestinians must feel being forced to live under such siege.

[Percival]

Horton just had a rather uncomfortable interview with Grayson, I'd love to see a re-do but Horton gets kudos for asking the tough ones. Anyway I want to mention a couple of things that I forgot.
Israel broke the cease fire prior to Cast Lead, and Hamas executed missileers firing into Israel. See, to me those facts on this never ending wheel of violence get left out in the ISRA/US dialog. I'd forgotten myself. Also things like "Gaza isn't occupied, the Israeli's left!" as if being in a prison between walls is being free. Talk about Orwellian.
Or "As long as people continue to support Hamas...." How about "As long as people continue to support Netanyahu"

Netanyahu is an ass that I certainly do not support, nor any of his Likudite cronies BUT the Likud is not an internationally designated terrorist organization and Hamas is. Its simply a hard line party affiliation which some support and some do not.

[Sweejak]

Not even I will deny that this whole show of force, PROVOKED AS IT WERE, was a "dont fuck with the Jews" moment, but again, and something nobody in their right mind can defend, the people of the Gaza elected terrorists to represent them so they are being treated accordingly.

The people of Israel elected terrorists! Consistently. From the very beginning of the state of Israel, so the Israelis are being treated accordingly.

You know, a lot of people want to compare this to the Exodus, but I prefer to look at the US cilvil rights era. The flotilla is called a provocation. Sure! of course it is! So was not sitting at the back of the bus, and so was confronting racist lunch counters.

[Percival]

I doubt you have ever been there and seen just how frightening it is to have shells rain down from the sky at all hours of the day and night without a moments notice.

I can't imagine how the Palestinians must feel being forced to live under such siege.

I agree, that bothers me also, but they speak in a collective voice at the ballot box and know full well the consequences of that.

[Nordic]

Wow, Percival, I didn't realize you were a brainwashed sycophant.

But you are.

You know, if I were a paranoid schizophrenic who thought that my neighbors were out to kill me, and I decided one night to simply axe murder them all, because "I had a right to defend myself" I doubt I'd get a lot of support.

Except from someone who happened to share in my delusions.

Why are you so deluded? Why are you so paranoid? Why are you cheering on murderers?

In short, who brainwashed you?

[Nordic]

I doubt you have ever been there and seen just how frightening it is to have shells rain down from the sky at all hours of the day and night without a moments notice.

I can't imagine how the Palestinians must feel being forced to live under such siege.

I agree, that bothers me also, but they speak in a collective voice at the ballot box and know full well the consequences of that.

That's what Osama Bin Laden said about the citizens of the United States. That they are all guilty, because of the way they voted, and are therefore it's just aok to murder them in terrorist attacks.

So now you are a terrorist. Way to go.

[JackRiddler]

No, I am defending the right of Israel to protect itself from a militant terrorist organization and do what it must to prevent arms from being smuggled to that organization.

Really now?

If arms smuggling to Hamas is the problem, why don't they stop pretending that Gaza is not occupied, and set up a customs post at the Gaza port? To avoid creating new Israeli targets, the customs house could be run by the UN, with the Israeli blockade still assuring that no one attempts to land on the beaches.

And by what logic does your justification extend to surprise attacks on foreign-flagged ships with announced cargos in international waters? The only applicable right to self-defense was that of the passengers who were attacked by the Israeli soldiers.

PS - That Likud is not an "officially designated" terrorist organization, like its former protege Hamas, merely shows the problem with official designations. There's no debating who has tallied the higher bodycount in the course of surprise attacks on civilians, which are by definition illegal, or who has launched more of these attacks.

[Bruce Dazzling]

Israel has a right to defend itself.

Everyone has that right — but when mass murderers invoke this right in defense of their madness and mayhem, people heap scorn upon them, and laughter upon their defenders.

If Israel is your definition of "mass murderer", and I wont argue your point, then there are very few nations, if any, who are not.

The bottom line remains. The people of the Gaza elected a terrorist organization to represent them and we are seeing the consequences of that.

Somebody really should figure out a way to subvert the system by which terrorist organizations are labeled. Just imagine how useful such a mechanism would be for the colonial wasters of life and limb who invade other people's territory, steal their resources, murder their people, and wall them into a modern day Warsaw Ghetto.

Oh, wait...

[Simulist]

I'm not sure Percival is brainwashed, but I am sure he's a troll.

[chump]

When I read the the Hasbara-type statements, I experience entering a kind of Looking Glass world. Dont know what other people experience somatically, but for myself it feels suffocating, truly Orwellian, Kafkaesque... It also seems to create a feeling of not knowing how to respond in a productive way, because the person at the other end of the communication loop is purely in 'transmit' mode and is transmitting almost pure 'noise'.

I was watching Netanyahoo's assessment of the attack and I felt the same way. How can a person reason with that pseudo reality bravado with which he slaps you in the face. Why listen? He's skewing the facts and he's a liar.

The Middle East, and the World would be a better place without Israel and the Zionists (alas, the same could be said about the U.S.). They treat everybody else like shit. They know the atrocities that they are responsible for. This is why they have to be so concerned about protecting themselves.

Granted we don't know all the facts. But, there is no doubt Israel broke the law by attacking this boat in International waters. They killed 9 people. They should be punished. We'll see if that happens.

If there is no law, and if they get away with this, do we all have to play by their rules now?

[Sweejak]

Horton just had a rather uncomfortable interview with Grayson, I'd love to see a re-do but Horton gets kudos for asking the tough ones. Anyway I want to mention a couple of things that I forgot.
Israel broke the cease fire prior to Cast Lead, and Hamas executed missileers firing into Israel. See, to me those facts on this never ending wheel of violence get left out in the ISRA/US dialog. I'd forgotten myself. Also things like "Gaza isn't occupied, the Israeli's left!" as if being in a prison between walls is being free. Talk about Orwellian.
Or "As long as people continue to support Hamas...." How about "As long as people continue to support Netanyahu"

Netanyahu is an ass that I certainly do not support, nor any of his Likudite cronies BUT the Likud is not an internationally designated terrorist organization and Hamas is. Its simply a hard line party affiliation which some support and some do not.

So. I mean, the US isn't officially declared a terrorist organization either. I don't care about designations, we don't need no stinkin' designations!

Man, I truly feel for you going into this from a contrary position. I'm not a non-partisan on this issue so I think rather than piling on I'll just watch.