Man up.

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Re: Man up.

Postby Montag » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:05 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:
The idea is that the truth gets told a thousand times in a thousand different places thus resulting in illuminating the masses on one more point (one billion to go).


There are too many walls and barriers that are up to obfuscate the truth IMHO. Unfortunately -- at least in Amerika -- accessing the truth takes some personal initiative. I don't really view myself any longer as someone to go out and spread some gospel. Amerika will either continue in its quasi-fascist state or not. I'll try to do something about it, but I certainly won't be the one to change it.

Now with the Internet it's actually easier than ever to find the truth of a lot of things. It's never been clear to me what percentage of the people take advantage of it though.
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Re: Man up.

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:10 pm

Simulist wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:
Simulist wrote:But seriously, folks... Has anyone ever "seen the light" because of an anonymous blog comment? Or maybe because someone on the internet verbally wrestled them from a "half nelson" into a cyber pinned-position?


The idea is that the truth gets told a thousand times in a thousand different places thus resulting in illuminating the masses on one more point (one billion to go).

Yeah. The "thousand points of light" thing never connected with me. (A "billion" points of it is a dazzling prospect though.)

But who has "the truth"? At best, each of us has pieces of it.


In comparison to "The Tea Party is the voice of the disenfranchised," or "cut taxes for the rich!" we have the truth.

Montag wrote:There are too many walls and barriers that up to obfuscate the truth IMHO. Unfortunately -- at least in Amerika -- accessing the truth takes some personal initiative. I don't really view myself any longer as someone to go out and spread some gospel. Amerika will either continue in its quasi-fascist state or not. I'll try to do something about it, but I certainly won't be the one to change it.

Now with the Internet it's actually easier than ever to find the truth of a lot of things. It's never been clear to me what percentage of the people take advantage of it though.


Okay, when I said "the masses" I should have said, "the select few of the masses who are already going to be receptive enough to explore the truth on their own and discover it."

I always think education is the #1 key issue facing the world today. Every problem, when broken down to its most basic, naked quality, hinges on humanity's choice between stupidity and brilliance.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
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Re: Man up.

Postby barracuda » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:29 pm

Good points Montag and Luther. I would add that many of the questions we have attempted to explore here, e.g.

- fascist control of the masses
- ufo connectons to the deep state
- occult elites and elite pedophilia
- mind control programming
- false flag terror
- jellyfish will inherit the earth
- etc.

...aren't messages which can be conveyed or explained easily or quickly, or which may find acceptance even after the evidence is laid out in full.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: Man up.

Postby Simulist » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:48 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:
Simulist wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:
Simulist wrote:But seriously, folks... Has anyone ever "seen the light" because of an anonymous blog comment? Or maybe because someone on the internet verbally wrestled them from a "half nelson" into a cyber pinned-position?


The idea is that the truth gets told a thousand times in a thousand different places thus resulting in illuminating the masses on one more point (one billion to go).

Yeah. The "thousand points of light" thing never connected with me. (A "billion" points of it is a dazzling prospect though.)

But who has "the truth"? At best, each of us has pieces of it.


In comparison to "The Tea Party is the voice of the disenfranchised," or "cut taxes for the rich!" we have the truth.

The tree stump in my backyard could probably best an alumnus From Glenn Beck University on variety of vital issues.

But are message boards and comment sections on blogs really places where opinions are actually changed? Sometimes perhaps, but I tend to doubt it for the most part.

At best these are places where the already-similarly-minded can deepen (and sometimes, yes, even broaden) their understanding of particular points of view, but at worst they are "heat sinks" that channel energy from other, more useful pursuits.

Will either of us actually change the mind of each other on this? Probably not — and that's really my point.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Man up?

Postby annie aronburg » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:49 pm

It smells like balls in here.
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
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Re: Man up.

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:53 pm

barracuda wrote:Good points Montag and Luther. I would add that many of the questions we have attempted to explore here, e.g.

- fascist control of the masses
- ufo connectons to the deep state
- occult elites and elite pedophilia
- mind control programming
- false flag terror
- jellyfish will inherit the earth
- etc.

...aren't messages which can be conveyed or explained easily or quickly, or which may find acceptance even after the evidence is laid out in full.


Right. I always go for the stuff that hits people in the here-and-now. That's why wealth inequality is a huge one that I've been spreading as much as I can. It should hit the tea party-types on a pretty emotional level, but usually they want to continue cutting taxes on the rich because they think that wealth inequality is still on some 1950's levels or something. Then you discourse with them and show them how bad it really is, and why, and you can start to see a glimmer of something in them. Or they've just given up because they realize they're talking to a socialist.

Even my ex-wife, who has some form of undiagnosed DID brought on as the result of some kind of (probably organized) sexual abuse in her childhood, who is now studying to become a psychologist specializing in child abuse and human trafficking, doesn't believe half the things I have shared with her. I started a google doc for her containing links to as many articles and papers regarding organized elite pedophilia and fascist sexuality, mostly with the help of RI. She already knows human trafficking is real, and that it is costly, so it's only a really short mental connection from prohibitive cost and danger to the realization that child human slavery is paid for, protected, insulated, and carried out by elites.
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Re: Man up?

Postby Cosmic Cowbell » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:59 pm

annie aronburg wrote:It smells like balls in here.


I just found a name for my new blog. Looking forward to the comments... :lol2:
"There are no whole truths: all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil." ~ A.N. Whitehead
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Re: Man up.

Postby zangtang » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:09 pm

got talc?
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Re: Man up.

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:10 pm

Simulist wrote:The tree stump in my backyard could probably best an alumnus From Glenn Beck University on variety of vital issues.

But are message boards and comment sections on blogs really places where opinions are actually changed? Sometimes perhaps, but I tend to doubt it for the most part.

At best these are places where the already-similarly-minded can deepen (and sometimes, yes, even broaden) their understanding of particular points of view, but at worst they are "heat sinks" that channel energy from other, more useful pursuits.

Will either of us actually change the mind of each other on this? Probably not — and that's really my point.


Hence my mention of Facebook, because I know that a lot of people sort of treat their interactions on there as if they were real life (or real enough for them to experience an honest and open discourse).

I'm afraid that you could be right that I'm missing the opportunity to pursue other, more useful means of "changing hearts and minds," by focusing on the internet as a means of communication, but man, when I was a voraciously angry punk kid I would have loved for a platform that could potentially reach tens of thousands of readers for free, as opposed to something like staging a protest with limited benefits. I don't know what real life alternates are as effective and viable and that utilizes my talents. I do what I can, especially on a personal level, i.e. organizing lectures and publishing essays on sustainability and social justice for other members of my trade community, but those always leave me wanting more for the people who participate / attend. Because I live paycheck to paycheck I'm still pretty fearful of going totally gung ho in doing many of the things I wish I could do, and I guess in that way "they" have sufficiently "got to me" as a means of control. But seriously I don't even know what this potential anti-social, dissident behavior might be that could have a broader impact.
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Re: Man up.

Postby Simulist » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:29 pm

I found this over at Common Dreams, and thought it might be a helpful addition to this discussion.

Is Social Networking Useless for Social Change?

by Jeremy Brecher and Brendan Smith

[This article is dedicated to the late Tim Costello, who taught us so much about social movements and organization.]

An October 4 New Yorker article by Malcom Gladwell, "Small Change: Why the Revolution Will not be Tweeted" poses an important question: What if anything is the potential contribution of web-based "social networking" to social movements and social change? The article's answer, drawing primarily on an account of the civil rights movement, is that social movements that are strong enough to impose change on powerful social forces require both strong ties among participants and hierarchical organizations -- the opposite of the weak ties and unstructured equality provided by social networking websites.

Gladwell deserves credit for kicking off a discussion of this question, but that discussion needs to go far beyond the answers he provides, both in conceptual clarity and in historical perspective. This is a modest contribution to that discussion.

For starters, a bit of conceptual clarification. Social networking websites are not a form of organization at all; they are a means of communication. Comparing Twitter to the NAACP is like comparing a telephone to a PTA. They are not the same thing, they don't perform the same kind of functions and therefore their effectiveness or lack thereof simply can't be compared.

There are other category problems as well. "Small Change" juxtaposes "networks" and "hierarchies." It conflates "strong ties" with "hierarchical" organizations. It denies that strong ties can occur as part of networks.These three conceptual presuppositions, which underlie the article's concrete historical analysis, deserve some serious reconsideration.

Economists and social scientists have traditionally divided organizations into "markets" and "hierarchies." Both coordinate multiple players, but in different ways. Markets are based on decentralized exchanges that lead to coordination by "feedback" from past transactions. (People raise or lower their prices based on how much demand there has been for what they are selling, leading in theory to the production of the right amount of different kinds of stuff.) Hierarchies -- armies and corporations, for example -- are based on a centralized control structure that plans coordinated activity and then commands subordinates to implement their assigned pieces of it.

More recently, some interpreters have pointed out that there is a third form, which they have dubbed "networks." Networks coordinate by means of the sharing of information and voluntary mutual adjustment among participants. They are different from markets because their planning is proactive and based on knowledge of other participants' intentions and capabilities, rather than on feedback from past transactions. They are different from hierarchies because their decision-making is decentralized and voluntary rather than centralized and authoritative.

How do the historical experiences of the civil rights movement analyzed in "small change" look in the light of such a clarified set of categories? There has been a vast amount of historical research on the history of the civil rights movement over the past few years. Visible actions like marches, sit-ins, and bus boycotts rested on a deep foundation of culture, social linkages, and accumulated experience of struggle in Black communities in the South. These connections, stretching over generations and diverse spheres of life, were the mulch from which the civil rights movement emerged -- or, perhaps more aptly, became visible to others on the outside. These linkages can be appropriately described as local community networks -- means of coordinating action based in information sharing rather than on either on a market or a command hierarchy.

Far from being able to command the action of these local networks, national civil rights leaders and organizations were largely dependent on them. In general, local leaders made the decision of whether, for example, to bring Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Council (SCLC) into town, and they were generally able to veto strategic decisions they did not agree with. They used the national leadership and organizations for their own purposes at least as much as the other way around. This picture represents anything but a hierarchy in which national leaders and organizations (or even local ones) were able to command participation the way it is done in an army, a corporation, or a similar "hierarchical organization."

Examining the Greensboro, N.C. lunch counter sit-in that touched off the sit-down wave of 1960, "Small Change" takes the personal "strong ties" among the initial Greensboro sit-downers as the key to their participation. Two were roommates and all had gone to the same high school, smuggled beer into their dorm room, remembered the murder of Emmett Till, the Montgomery bus boycott, and Little Rock. They discussed the idea of a Woolworth sit-in for a month. They were a "product" of the NAACP Youth Council (although "small change" doesn't even mention whether that organization played a role in the sit-in, let alone organized it.) They had close ties with the head of the local NAACP chapter. They had been briefed on previous sit-ins and attended "movement meetings in activist churches."

What social relations could be less hierarchical than this description? What could better fit the image of the dense social networks of a community in struggle? Would the results have been the same or better had an official of a civil rights organization come into town and tried to command those four students to go to Woolworth's and sit in?

"Small Change" similarly argues that such "strong ties" made the difference between volunteers who did and did not stay with the Mississippi Freedom Summer. The volunteers who stayed with Mississippi Freedom Summer "were far more likely than dropouts to have "close friends who were also going to Mississippi."

Such personal connections are undoubtedly important, but they are hardly the same thing as a hierarchy. The view that such strong ties contribute to the emergence of deep commitment is surely not the same as the claim that hierarchy is necessary to produce such commitment.

"Small Change" goes on to describe pre-Greensboro sit-ins that were formally organized by civil rights organizations and maintains that this argues against a "network" interpretation of the sit-down movement. But it doesn't raise the question of why these more formally organized sit-downs didn't spread and become a movement in the way that the Greensboro sit-in -- initiated by four high school freshmen who apparently were not even members of any organization at the time -- did.

"Small Change" describes the civil rights movement as "like a military campaign" that was "mounted with precision and discipline." Anybody who participated or has reviewed recent research on its history will likely find this description unfamiliar to say the least. Some of the SNCC kids from the Albany, Georgia campaign were even heard to say (perhaps over-deprecating their own strategic acumen) that they had no idea what they were doing. They just kept jumping around until they landed on someone's toes and they hollered and that's how the Albany kids found out who was really opposing them.

"Small Change" points out that "The NAACP was a centralized organization." True enough. But the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s came about explicitly as a break with the policies and domination of the NAACP, an attempt to break out from its hegemony. And the NAACP had a very ambiguous relationship, to say the least, to the direct action civil rights movement.

In the SCLC "Martin Luther King, Jr., was the unquestioned authority." Really? Nobody challenged the fact that he was the leader, but the massively researched biographies of King show that he was being challenged all the time on strategy and policy both by his lieutenants and by the local leadership of the movements he was brought in to "lead." Michael Honey's magnificent book "Going Down Jericho Road: The Memphis Strike, Martin Luther King's Last Campaign" makes clear just how much authority King exercised over local leaders and other "followers" (authority: none; influence -- even that was pretty marginal a lot of the time).

According to "Small Change," the "black church" was a hierarchical organization in which the minister "usually exercised ultimate authority over the congregation." But there were scores of different black churches in each city. In any one, the minister might be able to exercise authority (though if parishioners didn't like what the minster did they could and did switch to other churches). But the idea that these churches collectively represented a unity with a single authority is doubtful. Certainly it does not assort well with historical research portraying the difficulties Martin Luther King, Jr. had holding together the different Montgomery churches during the bus boycott. Crucially, did black ministers have enough authority to order their parishioners to go to jail? Or did the commitment of movement participants come from something other than a command hierarchy?

The idea that the civil rights movement as a whole expressed some kind of unity of command is also dubious. The SCLC was formed because King was unable to win the black Baptist denominations to support his vision. SNCC kids derisively referred to Dr. King as "de Laud." The counter-examples could go on and on.

The capabilities "Small Change" attributes to hierarchies sometimes reach the level of the awesome. It maintains, for example that networks are unlike hierarchies in that they are "prone to conflict and error." Hierarchies are not "prone to conflict and error?"

"Small Change" points out that digital communication would have been of no use in Montgomery, Alabama, "a town where ninety-eight per cent of the black community could be reached every Sunday morning at church." But does that mean that committed social activism is simply impossible among people who do not have that kind of pre-existing face-to-face connection? If so, there must be no examples in which powerful, committed social movements have developed among people who don't see each other every weekend in church.

This brings us back to the role of social media. Gladwell is surely right when he says social media "are not a natural enemy of the status quo." But that is only the beginning of the discussion. The pertinent question is whether social media can contribute to the process of forming social movements and effective social action, not whether social media can substitute for that process. (A telephone system is not a PTA, but it can sure as heck be useful for getting a few hundred people out to confront the school board or vote in the school board election.)

The evidence here is pretty clear. Social networking websites can play and are playing an important role in finding and connecting people who are beginning to think and feel similar things.They can help participants deepen their understanding and form common perspectives. They can help inform those who use them of possible courses of action.

This doesn't in itself substitute for many of the other things movements need, and need to do. It does not in itself create the kinds of "strong ties" that help give a movement strength, although it may help people find others with whom they want to develop strong ties. (Compare computer-initiated dating, which in itself only connects potential partners but in fact has connected many people who thereupon partnered and married.)

Beyond group formation is the question of power. As Gladwell indicates, ten thousand people sending each other tweets doth not a revolution make, or even major social change. Whatever else, significant social change requires, as Gandhi put it, "noncooperation" with the status quo and a "matching of forces" with those who would maintain it. Social networking cannot in itself provide either of these. But it can be a powerful tool for making such expressions of power possible.

This is not the first time that the relation between social movements and new forms of communication has been considered. A once-influential study published in 1847 observed that workers were beginning to form "combinations"; to "club together in order to keep up the rate of wages"; and to found "permanent associations" to make provision beforehand for occasional revolts. The consequence was an "expanding union of the workers."

This union is helped on by the improved means of communication that are created by Modern Industry, and that place the workers of different localities in contact with one another. It was just this contact that was needed to centralize the numerous local struggles, all of the same character, into one national struggle between classes.

Maybe the role of telegraph and newspapers a century and two-thirds ago is irrelevant to the role of social networking media today. But maybe not.


Brendan Smith and Jeremy Brecher are the editors, with Jill Cutler, of In the Name of Democracy, American War Crimes in Iraq and Beyond (Metropolitan, 2005). Brecher, a historian who has authored more than a dozen books including Strike!, writes for the Nation magazine among other publications. For his documentary film work he has received five regional Emmy Awards. Legal scholar Brendan Smith (blsmith28@gmail.com), a former senior congressional aide specializing in defense and human rights policy, is coauthor of Globalization from Below, and has written for the Los Angeles Times, The Nation, and the Baltimore Sun.
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Re: Man up.

Postby Nordic » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:12 pm

Re: social networking

Out of my hundred or so "friends" on Facebook there are maybe 3 or 4 who spread any actual interesting information, the kind of things that people should know, i.e. "political" stuff.

The rest of them? They're either completely silent or post inane small talk-like sound bits. Or just baby pictures and the like.

At the same time, when I'm in actual conversations with people these days, often in groups, I'm amazed at how well informed many people in my world have become.

It's possible this is due to some extremely high unemployment in my field the last year and a half, leaving people a lot of free time to sit around and peruse the internet.

Gotta get people back to work, or they're gonna learn the truth! :)
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Man up.

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:02 pm

Nordic wrote:At the same time, when I'm in actual conversations with people these days, often in groups, I'm amazed at how well informed many people in my world have become.

It's possible this is due to some extremely high unemployment in my field the last year and a half, leaving people a lot of free time to sit around and peruse the internet.


I think it's a combination of this, plus the fact that people are getting better at just using the internet in general.

I feel like I've gotten lucky with facebook - I'm friends with practically every person I've ever been close with in my entire life, going back to kindergarten (and beyond if I count family). My friends have all grown up to be mostly liberal, educated, city dwelling, cool, and knowledgeable. A LOT of political talk on my facebook wall.

Anyone else is a weird rogue aunt or the aforementioned tea party types that I've specifically targeted.
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Re: Man up.

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:48 pm

I began to write this post somewhere early on the first page, got busy with work and have only now returned to finish it. Seems no one's noticed the originator of this thread has all but disappeared. Probably out spreading word about something or other on myriad blogs.

Annie, you're right. They belong to a Troll.

Man-Up? Those two words say much about you, newbie. But here's the real icing on the cake: "Stop the circle jerk."

Others you wrote say more, and leaves me wondering... How on Earth do you communicate on the blogs you suggest while using such infantile analogue? Ok not infantile, but teenaged.

"So. I challenge you all to post provocative links and ideas to sports blogs, cooking blogs, home fucking repair blogs, literary blogs, whatever online source with a comment section. Bombard them with your subversive and threatening ideals."

You have no idea who we are, what we do or where we post and to suggest that we share or rather "Bombard" mundane sites with subversive and threatening ideals seems to me a bizarre.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Why is it that you don't include yourself, choosing to utilize 'your', rather than 'our' in that last sentence? Could it be because you are not "one of us?"
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Re: Man up.

Postby battleshipkropotkin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:58 pm

I love this place. Thanks for being around. srsly.

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Re: Man up.

Postby Laodicean » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:04 pm

Man up.


JackRiddler wrote:
And no way am I getting myself banned from the Cupcake Blog.

http://cupcakeblog.com/


norton ash wrote:Oh, Riddler, don't piss off those cupcake people. They're worse than scientologists.


barracuda wrote:
...aren't messages which can be conveyed or explained easily or quickly, or which may find acceptance even after the evidence is laid out in full.


annie aronburg wrote:It smells like balls in here.


Image

:thumbsup
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