Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby lupercal » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:31 am

lupercal wrote:okay here's something truly mind-boggling:


This link goes to some uber-astroturf site called "Why We Protest" featuring this pantload of propaganda on their home page:
Stand for freedom, stand with Anonymous
For the downtrodden have no names to tyrants
Join Now

Since its inception, the internet has provided new ways for people all over the world to exercise the rights of free speech, freedom of the press and freedom of assembly. [blah blah, you get the point, cut]

WikiLeaks has moved to fill the void left by traditional news media, providing the necessary information for citizens to hold their governments to account. Yet it has not been granted the legal protections generally afforded to journalists. Instead, the organization has been vilified and monetary support has been blocked by governments and private corporations. The vitriol aimed at WikiLeaks demonstrates an unsettling disregard for the fundamental freedom to exchange information and express ideas. {Freedom is on the march, hmm, now where have we heard that line before? Oh yeah, all that AEI and Cato Institute astroturf that gets posted every which where}

Members of a free society must not allow information to be suppressed simply because it inconveniences those in power. We share the responsibility to defend vital liberties. The time to act is now. {Ayn Rand, is that you?}

Now get this:


We are Anonymous, a leaderless movement that has worked tirelessly to oppose all forms of Internet censorship worldwide, from DMCA abuses to government mandated content filters. Our initiatives include supporting dissenting groups in Iran, Zimbabwe and Tunisia, as well as waging the highly visible information battle against the Church of Scientology. We are now prepared to take the fight to the world stage. Join us on January 15th for the first in a series of global protests in defense of WikiLeaks and freedom of expression. Stand with us to defend your freedoms.

We Are Anonymous And So Are You

http://www.whyweprotest.net/en/

So whaddya know, wikispooks, the noble defense of "dissenting groups in Iran," and the noble defense of Eli Lilly I mean fight against Scientology are one and the same, whoda thunk it?

p.s. thanks Plu, you're the best bean spiller ever! :yay


Rhetorical question: exactly who built that site, who runs it, who does their accounting which is baloney, who does the translation, who furnished the graphics, who writes the super-slick copy, and etc?
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:01 am

The Eli Lilly stuff on WWP is a running joke, the result of Scientologists accusing protesters of being paid by big pharma, something they find funny.

If you want to know who runs the site, just e-mail Sue or Da5id. I'm sure they'd be willing to talk about it.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby lupercal » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:06 am

Twyla I'm talking about this Eli Lilly stuff, all 66 rather robustly documented pages of it at the link below:

Thimerosal has been used in vaccines since the 1930s, and internal company documents indicate that the pharmaceutical industry was always aware of the chemical’s potential danger.5 The Eli Lilly Company, which first developed and manufactured thimerosal and owned the patent, knew from the start that thimerosal was unsafe—its testing consisted of administering the serum to 22 terminal meningitis patients, all of whom died within weeks of being injected—a fact not reported in Lilly’s study. For decades, Lilly portrayed this incident as proof of thimerosal’s safety.6

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/Th ... lFINAL.PDF
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:23 am

stickdog99 wrote:
What results of what experiments? If you are discussing Wakefield's original MMR experiment that has caused all this fuss, it never proved anything, regardless of the truth of Deer's allegations against Wakefield, other than the desperate need for further research on the issue vaccine safety.


OK fair enough with that.

Remeber I mentioned the swine flu vaccine thing.

I thought it was stupid to stop giving it to kids based on the numbers I saw. That was obviously a political decision based on an emotional reaction to the vaccine causing reactions in kids. One aspect of vaccinations is that reactions occur, its a normal immunological response and shows the vaccine has "downloaded" its info into the immune systems data bank. Thats a metaphor but its closer than it seems to accurate.

No one died. Now this was all based on public media hysteria.

The swine flu panic was too, so I'm staying within the logic of that. I might disagree that swine flu vaccination was necessary but thats not the point I'm making.

If there are risks with vaccine:

a/ are they 1) poor practice (mercury, infection, etc) or 2) something thats inherent in the vaccine?

If its just one then obviously action needs to be taken.

b/ but in either case what are the numbers?

How many people get really sick as a reaction to vaccines and what is the overall ratio compared to no vaccines? Whats the rick benefit analysis for the average individual on average? And the potential worst outcomes of both actions (vaccine & no vaccine) and their likelihoods.


That is what the vaccine debate should be about.

Point a/ above isn't an issue about vaccines per se. Its about poor medical practice.

Cos if the risks are inherent in the vaccine and so point b deals with that.

I don't see Wakefields actions as adding to that.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:24 am

lupercal wrote:Twyla I'm talking about this Eli Lilly stuff, all 66 rather robustly documented pages of it at the link below:

Thimerosal has been used in vaccines since the 1930s, and internal company documents indicate that the pharmaceutical industry was always aware of the chemical’s potential danger.5 The Eli Lilly Company, which first developed and manufactured thimerosal and owned the patent, knew from the start that thimerosal was unsafe—its testing consisted of administering the serum to 22 terminal meningitis patients, all of whom died within weeks of being injected—a fact not reported in Lilly’s study. For decades, Lilly portrayed this incident as proof of thimerosal’s safety.6

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/Th ... lFINAL.PDF


Sorry, everything was rather mashed up there. So much for reading comprehension. :zomg

I have a son on the spectrum, who exhibited his first 'behaviors' soon after a barrage of shots at 4 months. This was also noted by members of my family who worked in early childhood development. He got those shots back in the thimerosol days. I don't know if the vaccines did it or not, but they certainly seemed to trigger something in his case.

Thank you for the info. From what I've seen adding mercury preservative to vaccines is irresponsible, putting profits ahead of the health of people.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:33 am

stickdog99 wrote:Look, I'm no fan of Scientology (or any other fundamentalist religion for that matter).
Ha! That's a classic. Just Google "I'm not a Scientologist but" and see for yourself.

But I fail to see what could be Scientologists' motivation to infiltrate or set up associations to question vaccination. And even if Scientologolists had some sort of secret motivation to do so, why shouldn't the content of any such sites still stand on its own merits, considering that this content has nothing whatsoever to do with Scientology?
I see what you did there. :lol2:
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby lupercal » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:40 am

Thanks Twyla :grouphug:
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:47 am

lupercal wrote:http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com

Conflict of interest.

From Point of Law blog:
The "mercury militia"
Its members are often saddled with their own conflicts of interest, notes an article by author Arthur Allen at the Huffington Post (!) (via the ever-vigilant Orac). And speaking of which, an item the other day on the WSJ law blog confirmed that anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., America's Most Irresponsible Public Figure (r), is of counsel to Florida's Levin Papantonio, the mass-tort specialists. For more on RFK Jr. and vaccines, see this link and this one, among others.

Posted by Walter Olson

Levin Papantonio

Mass Tort / Product Liability

When a dangerous product is released to the public and causes serious injuries, the injured deserve full compensation for resulting medical bills, pain and suffering, lost wages, and more. However, there are few areas of legal practice which require more financial backing and support staff than the handling of mass tort / product liability cases. Managing a complex, multi-plaintiff case (such as class actions or multi-district litigation) typically requires the assistance of numerous attorneys, paralegals, support staff and in-house computer specialists on each case.


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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby lupercal » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:52 am

^ you couldn't find some astro calling him a scientologist? :tongout

Anyway exactly what "conflict of interest" are you alleging here?
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby catbirdsteed » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:00 am

Hereis one of the responses to the BMJ article:

Editorial: Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent* Fiona Godlee, * Jane Smith, * Harvey Marcovitch BMJ 342:doi:10.1136/bmj.c7452 (Published 5 January 2011)

Many of the responses are supportive of AW, and others are merely critical of BD. A few, of course are anti AW, but surprisingly few.

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c745 ... _el_247358

"Unrealistic Assumption underlying fabrication charge

* Martin Hewitt, retired academic

Dr Wakefield is charged with fabricating findings on the 'ideal world ' but unrealistic assumptions that medical records are always accurate and that medical practitioners and researchers always consistent in their record-keeping. It follows that for Brian Deer in medical research there could be few questions of interpreting facts and few grounds for disagreement over differing interpretations.

Deer's attack on Wakefield in this week's BMJ focuses on one set of data from the multitude provided on the 12 children in the 1998 Lancet 'early report': namely the record of when eight of the twelve children received their MMR in relation to the onset of behavioural signs that retrospectively were diagnosed as autistic spectrum disorders. Deer challenges the record that these children first displayed autistic signs following MMR and, ipso facto, questions the claim that they had a regressive form of autism. This is the main concern he raises from the rich array of data.

The timing of the symptoms in relation to the date the MMR was given refers to one of five hypotheses reviewed. Deer has less concern about the other hypotheses concerning inflamed or dysfunctional intestines (although in passing he points to disagreements over the diagnosis of bowel disease), the correlation between rising incidence of autism and MMR since its introduction in 1988 (which the paper rejects for lack of reliable data in the mid-1990s), the genetic predisposition to autistic-spectrum disorders, and vitamin B12 malabsorption.

Deer's focus on the timing of MMR, and his questioning of regressive autism and bowel disease, supports the claims of the manufacturers, government and medical profession that the MMR is safe.

Wakefield is charged with fabrication against an unrealistic standards of accuracy and consistency where no such standards exists. Notwithstanding the GMC's findings of fact, the reality is that medical records are not always consistent and that differences in interpretation do occur. For these charges to stand, they would need to be assessed against the uncertainties and contingencies that characterise real science, not against unreal and non-existent standards. Were the GMC and Deer to be the sole tribunal of truth in applying their standards of consistency to all medical research, then it would be questionable if research could progress in the way it has and if scientific debate were possible in the form so far conducted.

Wakefield provides an initial rebuttal to Deer's charges of falsifying evidence, first given in the Sunday Times, in his book 'Callous Disregard: autism and vaccines' (2010). Would the editors not agree that Wakefield has the right of replying to Deer's charges on grounds of fairness and even-handness?

Competing interests: father of autistic son"

Not surprisingly, after my last post, I was able to adjust my scope and find numerous specific non Wakefield references to studies and data analysis that do support the inflamed colon issues in regressive autism. Next, I will look into some of them to see if they are DAN affiliated. One may sneak into a post before I check for that .Thanks to barracuda and Plutonia for their important reminders regarding the serious reality of Scientology infiltration into the autism treatment community.

This behaviorist does not appear to have any DAN affiliations, so here goes:

Brain Damage caused by Vaccination
Alan Challoner MA (Phil) MChS
That vaccinations are helpful to society is without question; however,
that some individuals suffer permanent and damaging sequelae to
vaccinations is also well documented. The purpose of this paper is to
offer a mechanism by which vaccination-induced neuronal damage in
some individuals can be understood.
...

p 3 of 17
In the late 1970s, a number of reports appeared in the Press from different
parts of the UK about children who were previously well but had become
mentally retarded or paralysed soon after receiving triple vaccine. The
Government, on the advice of its advisory committees, responded to these
reports by re-affirming the efficacy and safety of pertussis vaccine and by
insisting that the pertussis component be retained in triple vaccine. They
insisted also that a high level of vaccination among children of all ages must be
maintained if epidemics were to be averted.
Looking at events at the time of the earlier trials of pertussis vaccine when
given alone (i.e. not as part of triple vaccine) in the USA and UK, it becomes
clear that the inclusion of pertussis vaccine makes triple vaccine much more
likely to be followed by adverse reactions involving the heart and nervous
system. Such reactions include shock, collapse, convulsions and screaming fits,
all of which had been recorded in some of the children who received pertussis
vaccine alone in the earlier trials. Such signs were extremely infrequent or
altogether absent in the earlier usage of the other two components of triple
vaccine.5"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19408267/Brai ... accination

I am trying to stay on topic here, in spite of that last source.

stickdog99 wrote:
What results of what experiments? If you are discussing Wakefield's original MMR experiment that has caused all this fuss, it never proved anything, regardless of the truth of Deer's allegations against Wakefield, other than the desperate need for further research on the issue vaccine safety.

Just for the sake of clarity, stickdog, what AW did was not an experiment, but a series of exploratory procedures (and data collection) up to and including colonoscopies. It is the CDC the AMA and the APA -and the pharma/biotech cartesl -that are experimenting on infants, children the general population when they propagate medicines and drugs that are not properly tested for long term efficacy and safety. but you know that.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby catbirdsteed » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:08 am

Plutonia, barracuda, anyone... Why is it that Paul Offit's conflict of interests never seem to be under the microscope of the Wakefield critics? Could one or both of you address this. please?

Scientology is really one of the perfect foils for America, as it poses only a minor threat to the true power structure, but DOES pose a very real threat to the sanity, sanctity and dignity of a large number of individuals and organizations. (added on edit)
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby justdrew » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:19 am

the rate of autism continues to climb despite elimination of thiomersal from routine childhood vaccines


a newer idea that's been put forth is that autism is 'caused' by chronic maternal (and child) vitamin-D deficiency.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby catbirdsteed » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:24 am

Over- and mal-medication are very real ways to drive down Vitamin D levels. Blood and tissue toxicity can be a cause or a result of Vitamin D deficiency. The association does not at all clear vaccines, but is a good reminder that there are numerous possible and actual vectors to regressive autism.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:04 am

catbirdsteed wrote:Plutonia, barracuda, anyone... Why is it that Paul Offit's conflict of interests never seem to be under the microscope of the Wakefield critics? Could one or both of you address this. please?



Wait a minute didn't he vote against the use of the smallpox vaccine in response to a terror scare cos the benefits were outweighed by the risks to the public of taking the vaccine?

That certainly suggests to me that whatever his conflict of interests may be he is also capable of thinking about the public interest first and putting his own preference for vaccination to the side.
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Re: Did Andrew Wakefield Perpetrate an "Elaborate Fraud"?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:37 am

Isn't Small pox extinct in the wild?

barracuda wrote:You know what? I don't care about any of that. The posting guidelines are still in effect. Don't use Scientology sources.


Does Colin Ross count? I mean, he's quite a major source on the MK business. After all we find ourselves in bed with the scientologists on the subject of abhorrence for the spychiatrists.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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